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Ok someone educate me mastering levels what is Bernie Grundmann doing
Old 22nd November 2002
  #1
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Ok someone educate me mastering levels what is Bernie Grundmann doing

I have tried hitting comps and limiters for self mastering (only for demo work)

I can never get my mixes to peak and stay up on the meters like the mixes I've sent to Bernie Grundmann (Brian "Big Bass" Gardener actually)

What the phu*** is he doing that I'm not. Believe me I won't use the advice to try mastering myself because I have neither the room, the gear, nor the talent. I'm just curious.

I guess you can say I can't keep it up LOL (levels that is
)

I'd like to know what he's doing so that when I a/b with CD's as refs I'd be closer to the ballpark. For right now I simply lower the level of the CD and get my protools mixes close without the level and leave it to Mastering to get me the rest of the way.

I only place a comp and EQ on my master and on the comp I'm taking off no more than about 2db
Old 22nd November 2002
  #2
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hire him to master a project, and then ask what he did... well, it cant hurt to do that on a number of levels.. the Grumnman gang rock!
Old 22nd November 2002
  #3
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I shall forever use Brian Gardner at Bernie Grundmann till I quit this business

I just have to actually go in for the mastering session instead of sending tapes next time

Hopefully Brad or someone else on the other side of the envelope will chime in here
Old 22nd November 2002
  #4
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🎧 15 years
Try Eddie and Gene over at Oasis. They smoke the Grundman crew. Brian has a tendency to act like a remixer on my mixes. I got one back, and it sounded: #1 Distorted, #2 Spatialized, #3 Normalized. None of these where things I was going for. Bernie does a great job, he's probably my 3rd choice.
Old 22nd November 2002
  #5
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thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
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My favorite guys are Ted Jensen and Tom Coyne over at Sterling(for the pop/rnb stuff). For rock I love Dave Collins. Brian Gardner is cool too.
Old 23rd November 2002
  #6
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🎧 15 years
For my work Alan Douches is the man over at west west side music in NJ.
Old 23rd November 2002
  #7
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Neve Sucks!'s Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
TC 6000! with MD3! Set the compressor to maximum peak comp, compress as little as possible. Raise the comp output gain un till you think is loud enough. Make sure that the output limiter does not pump/duck (use as little gr as possible on the limiter as well).

This way your mastering should sound as "loud" as any hotshot mastering guys.
Personally IΒ΄m getting kind of tired of record that is to loud, e.g.. to much limiting. What happened to dynamic mixes that is comfortable to listen to....!?
Old 23rd November 2002
  #8
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Ray Staff - Sony, London, UK


Old 23rd November 2002
  #9
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drundall's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
Try Eddie and Gene over at Oasis. They smoke the Grundman crew. Brian has a tendency to act like a remixer on my mixes. I got one back, and it sounded: #1 Distorted, #2 Spatialized, #3 Normalized. None of these where things I was going for. Bernie does a great job, he's probably my 3rd choice.
Hey e-cue, missed you at the Oasis party. I was the guy complaining that the beer ran out till they got more...
Old 23rd November 2002
  #10
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Jack the Bear's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
grggt I find it amuzing how people are so fascinated with the whole loudness issue. Sorry to bear the bad news, but louder is not always better.

This has been such a contentious issue. Yeah there MEs that push the dynamics barrow, but ultimately they peg the meters. Personally I'll do it where appropriate and when asked, after all I'm in the service industry as well.

Even if you want to do your own mastering concentrate on getting records to sound great, THEN look at how loud you wanna make it.

It's not how loud you make it, but how you make it loud. Thanks to Bob Katz on those pearls of wisdom.

Everyone has there own way of raising RMS. Use your ears. Just remember music that has been smashed to pieces becomes a very fatiguing experience.

It's not illegal to go for level, just try to make is as musical as possible and keep in mind the mix.
It's integrity is paramount. An MEs job is NOT to "remix", even though there are incredible tools at his disposal. Sure all MEs have some kind of style or sound, but it's NOT about imposing his will on it to feed his ego.

As I've said I'm just a glorified tape copy boy, so maybe I'm talking ****. I just reckon if it's just about level, then have a cracked plug-in and there'll be no need for places like mine, or even Grundman's.

Cheers,

Tony Mantz.
Old 23rd November 2002
  #11
One with big hooves
 
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🎧 15 years
I agree, the level thing is pretty played out these days. I'm getting really really tired of songs getting smaller when the chorus hits. Also, I find that anything super crushed is really fatiguing to listen to. A few weeks ago I had one band tell me that they thought a friends CD was too loud. So, there might still be some hope. If it's only about level get a Finalizer or L2 and knock yourself out.
Old 23rd November 2002
  #12
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e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by drundall


Hey e-cue, missed you at the Oasis party. I was the guy complaining that the beer ran out till they got more...
I was the guy drinking a Pabst Blue Ribbon when everyone else was drinking Henikeens. Actually, I just saw the inflatable sex doll that was in Gene's room over at a project studio. Should've guess it would go home with someone I knew...
Old 23rd November 2002
  #13
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My point was not that I wanted loudness. I started this thread to ask what he might be doing. Settings etc...

I thought I stated this but maybe I didn't. I have neither the talent, gear, nor room to master myself and it is not my intention. I'd just like to know what to do to have a better approximation of what a mix will be like after mastering when A/Bing with other CD's
Old 24th November 2002
  #14
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Jack the Bear's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
That's always going to be a very difficult thing to achieve. It's like saying I'm not a guitar player and I don't wanna be one, I don't have the great rig, but I wanna see if I can sort of play those Stevie Ray Vaughn licks.

Generally speaking try compressing relatively hard with a slower attack and quicker release and L1 or L2 it to death. If you still can't get it up there, you may want to have a look at your mix or what your comparing it to. The denser the mix, the more difficult it is to get it stoopid loud and maintain some kind of dynamic. Otherwise lower the level of your reference to match what you've done.

I know this isn't the greatest advice, but remember a lot of top flight mix engineers know how to mix their records so that the ME can take it up there.
MEs also have their methods as well.
Still usually sounds like ****, but it's really hard to do these things at home with limited resources.

Cheers,

Tony Mantz.
Old 24th November 2002
  #15
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Gear (including the room and monitors).
Time/experience.
Talent.

One needs all three of these ingredients IMHO.
Old 24th November 2002
  #16
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Jack the Bear's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
A fat wallet also helps!

Cheers,

Tony Mantz.
Old 3rd January 2012
  #17
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Pretty old thread, but actually when I watched on Youtube videos from Grundmann mastering studios, I can say only - nobody can reach them! heh Talent and experience is one side but hey, they are manufacturing their own electronics!!! -6dB average RMS with full dynamic content is from other world, really.
Old 3rd January 2012 | Show parent
  #18
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by icecubeman ➑️
Pretty old thread, but actually when I watched on Youtube videos from Grundmann mastering studios, I can say only - nobody can reach them! heh Talent and experience is one side but hey, they are manufacturing their own electronics!!! -6dB average RMS with full dynamic content is from other world, really.
Links to these videos?
Old 4th January 2012
  #19
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I had the pleasure of spending a few hours at the Grundmann facility. Must have been about ten years ago.

My friend Bruce is a designer of very high end tube pre-amps and Bernie was impressed enough to invite Bruce in for a shootout with their top custom in-house solid state pre-amps. Bruce brought me along cause he thinks I have ears.

It was Bruce, Bernie, me and I believe a fellow by the name of Beno. If memory serves, that was his name and he was Bernie's trusted in-house tech. Very cool people for sure and I was thrilled to be orbiting their planet.

The attention to detail was astonishing and the ears that these guys have and the experience to know how to listen was an eye opener. To ask how they do it is a legitimate question but one might as well ask how do you build the Empire State Building. There is the financier, the architect the structural engineer etc.

I think the best way to approach the level of a world class mastering house is to start with the foundation. Extremely clean, quality power. Superb acoustics. Accurate monitors that translate well. And a very clean, clear, undistorted analog circuit.

Without those four fundamental elements, it seems to me to be a fools game to try to emulate their results. Especially when one considers that if you take the top 20 mastering engineers on Earth, they will all have those four elements down solid but they also will approach the art in different ways.

Whether musicians, producers or mastering engineers... the true artists will not stick to a strict formula but will let the music dictate the tone and dynamics and such.

Just one mans take.

- Cheers
Old 4th January 2012 | Show parent
  #20
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by icecubeman ➑️
Pretty old thread, but actually when I watched on Youtube videos from Grundmann mastering studios, I can say only - nobody can reach them! heh Talent and experience is one side but hey, they are manufacturing their own electronics!!! -6dB average RMS with full dynamic content is from other world, really.
That's pretty much a self-contradictory statement. If it has that RMS level clearly it doesn't have full dynamic content. It has dynamic content relative to something that has none I guess (which is probably most people's yard stick these days), but clearly it has almost no dynamic content relative to something actually does have real dynamics. I dunno, not to piss on the guy, who I'm sure is talented and nice and all that, but this is like asking how to get better at defacing good paintings or something.

The Dynamic Range Avenger Strikes Again for Good.
Old 4th January 2012
  #21
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🎧 10 years
Anyone work with Greg Calbi or Bob Ludwig?
Old 4th January 2012
  #22
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edva's Avatar
 
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Ears, years, and gear.
Old 4th January 2012
  #23
Gear Guru
That was like reading a book of letters sent from the lemmings just before they took their swim.

So guys, just how did the loudness wars go?

Got THD?
Old 4th January 2012
  #24
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🎧 10 years
Here is the link for episode one Bernie Grundman Mastering Studio Tour - Part 1 [Webisode] - YouTube there is also another four episodes.

Dean: sorry I gorfot to write full sounding dynamic range compared to other masters I hear that has same average RMS
Old 5th January 2012 | Show parent
  #25
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Sofa King's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by icecubeman ➑️
Here is the link for episode one Bernie Grundman Mastering Studio Tour - Part 1 [Webisode] - YouTube there is also another four episodes.
interesting video...
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