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Neumann to reissue the U47?
Old 6th February 2021 | Show parent
  #31
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Fletcher's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husky Squad ➡️
The combination of a tube (VF14), capsule and a transformer plays an important role, no doubt. But if the Telefunken USA managed to make a good sounding clone with a cheap glass tube embedded in a metal envelope, what prevents Neumann from making a great u47 with an original K47/49 capsule and ef86 tube, for example?
TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik did a LOT of homework... and that "cheap glass tube" is indeed what is inside the guts of a VF-14. The only reason for mounting that tube in the metal casing is for "retrofit" / "classic look"... on the technical end, that "cheap glass tube" has the EXACT "form & function" of the original VF-14 "guts"... the main "nay sayers" are folks that are pissed off they didn't think of it first [and yes, I am an ex-employee of TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik... but no, I have ZERO financial interest in any of this -- so I'm sharing information that has ZERO profit potential for me... just trying to clear up some factual stuff].

...as for using an EF-86 instead... that's ridiculous the two tubes have nothing in common other than being tubes that can be used in audio circuits... its kinda like saying "oh, you can't get the "fresh caught Swordfish, perhaps you can substitute a Sirloin piece of beef -- it will be close enough - right?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaleida ➡️
Certainly would! Klaus Heyne estimated it would cost $500k for a manufacturer to tool up for VF14 production. Seems like a risky proposition even for a company like Neumann. If they sold new U47s for $10k like Telefunken does and made a 50% margin, that would take 1,000 mics to break even.
It would take more like 10-15,000 mics to break even [yes, I have run the numbers as I was once the "Brand Manager" -- and had my hand in "design" / "test procedure" and "quality control" for a couple years] for TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik].

The version that T'funk is currently employing in their "new release" is the electronic equivalent - however, the "glass version" of the same valve that is installed in the metal can and pinned out as a replacement is proper. Its basically what you're saying could be done [a new run of valves], without the exorbitant overhead expense that frankly would never be "recouped" [see your major label record contract for definition of "recoup"].

Peace
Old 6th February 2021 | Show parent
  #32
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher ➡️
TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik did a LOT of homework... and that "cheap glass tube" is indeed what is inside the guts of a VF-14. The only reason for mounting that tube in the metal casing is for "retrofit" / "classic look"... on the technical end, that "cheap glass tube" has the EXACT "form & function" of the original VF-14 "guts"... the main "nay sayers" are folks that are pissed off they didn't think of it first [and yes, I am an ex-employee of TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik... but no, I have ZERO financial interest in any of this -- so I'm sharing information that has ZERO profit potential for me... just trying to clear up some factual stuff].
So why are they selling this tube for 750$ ? Because of the "classic look" ? lol
Many people still think it is a simple $5 408A tube with a drop resistor to lower the heater voltage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher ➡️
...as for using an EF-86 instead... that's ridiculous the two tubes have nothing in common other than being tubes that can be used in audio circuits... its kinda like saying "oh, you can't get the "fresh caught Swordfish, perhaps you can substitute a Sirloin piece of beef -- it will be close enough - right?"
Ok, then don't you think it's ridiculous when a $ 9,000 clone is equipped with this Frankenstein tube?
There were some songs that Robert Plant, B.B. King and Allison Krauss recorded with a modified U47 with an EF86 tube, and it looks like they didn't complain. I agree this this mic won't sound identical to a vintage u47 VF14 , but the same goes for the T-Funk with its non-original parts. Perhaps there are better tube alternatives which are still in production, and I still believe that Neumann engineers can find a way out.

As I mentioned earlier, IMHO T-Funk u47 is a great sounding mic, but it's a clone with an overpriced tube.
And there are many great u47 clones on the market right now, such as Flea, Wunder, Heiserman, etc. Although they do not have a "classic look" Frankenstein tube, they sound great and cost significantly less.
Old 6th February 2021
  #33
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I can't helped being provoked by T-funk USA pricing. Sure you can have boutique prices but... I'd say around the 4-6k mark is ok more then that is just brand milking.

A spare no expense type of mic can't cost more then 1-1.5k to make so there margins have to be crazy good.


Neumann would never release a Re u47 relaying on vintage tubes. Have to be something that is in stock.
Old 6th February 2021 | Show parent
  #34
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
At $750 USD for a new tube, the VF-14K costs less than 10 percent of the new mic.

A U47 in the Mid 1950s sold for about 400 dollars. Approximately $3850 in 2020 money.

A U47 in todays market is costing 10K or above because people have proven they will gladly plunk down 10K to own one.

Bring down the cost of the mic, the tube cost will come down proportionally.

The big difference is that the Audio Market is exponentially bigger today than in 1955.

A microphone costs 10K because hobbyists think that an expensive mic will make them sound "PRO".

Supply/Demand, and "Magical" thinking at Work. If I am a Mic Maker I ****LOVE**** "Magical" thinking...
Old 6th February 2021 | Show parent
  #35
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher ➡️
TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik did a LOT of homework... and that "cheap glass tube" is indeed what is inside the guts of a VF-14.
There is no "glass tube" inside a VF14 steel tube. It was maybe too hard for the Americans who bought the German Telefunken name to fabricate a real copy of the steel tube and its insides?

So they bought a Five Euro tube by the boat-load (is that where the 'LOT of homework' time was used?), and made a Frankenstein.

But why fake the look of the VF14, why glue a cheap tube and a resistor inside, with different construction from the original, that does not last, then gets noisy, and that does not sound at all as a VF14?
Old 7th February 2021 | Show parent
  #36
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Whatever happens, I'm just infinitely happy that we have a current 67.

It was about six years ago now that Neumann told me it was on the way to production.
Old 8th February 2021
  #37
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Oldone's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Say what you will about the T-Funk U47 it's an incredible sounding mic and at least it's a current model.
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
  #38
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldone ➡️
Say what you will about the T-Funk U47 it's an incredible sounding mic
.. only if you have never heard and recorded with a real U47 in good working condition. When you do, your T-Funk will end on Reverb, I promise.
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
  #39
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thismercifulfate's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmuth ➡️
.. only if you have never heard and recorded with a real U47 in good working condition.
This is my experience also.
Old 8th February 2021
  #40
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Plush's Avatar
 
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🎧 15 years
It would be sold with a computer hook up that makes a modeled "real 47" sound come out of it.
Old 9th February 2021 | Show parent
  #41
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by crille_mannen ➡️
I can't helped being provoked by T-funk USA pricing. Sure you can have boutique prices but... I'd say around the 4-6k mark is ok more then that is just brand milking.

A spare no expense type of mic can't cost more then 1-1.5k to make so there margins have to be crazy good.

.
I disagree. It takes seemingly large margins to have any chance of being profitable enough to be worth the trouble.
This article is about AV profit margins, but I'd bet it's very close to the truth for pro (or semi-pro) audio as well. https://hometheaterreview.com/how-pr...u-should-care/

Boutique manufacturers are unique in that there is usually only one person on the payroll; sometimes that number increases to ten or twelve. But many small companies are destroyed by trying to grow into larger companies. Theoretically as sales go up, the cost per unit goes down, but in the early days and in the middle numbers (above boutique sales but below major manufacturer), the cost per unit can actually go up.
Old 9th February 2021
  #42
Gear Guru
 
chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Nice to see Fletcher posting again.
But...

A blind test of original VF-14 vs. T-Funk tube version,
would be...
"Fascinating" (Best Leonard Nimoy/Spock voice)

My money, would be on the original recipe.
Chris
Old 9th February 2021
  #43
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toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
There is nothing “wrong” with the idea of setting up a k47 with a head amp that uses an EF86. It would have to be a different design than the U47, and would have to have a different output transformer, etc.

It makes me think of the U497, which was a k47 with unique solidstate circuit, inside of a U67/U87 type body.

If I was going to spec a product for them, I would say make a “vintage style” tube head amp, with k47...then just put it in the U67 body. Maybe have a switch to control tube bias and bring out a little more bloom. Try to voice it in between a U47 and M49, assess whether some circuitry could be added to tilt the sound towards one vs the other. Just make something new, because everyone else is making pretend U47s...don’t put yourself in that league.

As far as Telefaken, the tube issue is only ONE of the problems.
Old 10th February 2021 | Show parent
  #44
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Oldone's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmuth ➡️
.. only if you have never heard and recorded with a real U47 in good working condition. When you do, your T-Funk will end on Reverb, I promise.
As if you could even find a "good working" U47 that isn't residing in some rock stars or Blackbird type studio.

A. All old U47s sound different and their quality varies widely after 50+years of operation. I have access to units I was renting here in Los Angeles.
B. The two U47s I compared my TFunk U47 to prior to buying revealed what I would say are minimal differences and mine had less noise. Let me ask you if you have actually compared the modern TFunk U47 to any Neumann or Tele U47 from the past?

Comparing some holy grail sound from a by gone era that is illusive not to mention expensive seems pointless.

And I'm not saying there isn't a vintage U47 out there that would win in a shootout with the modern TFunk 47. But there is as good a chance as it wouldn't .
Old 10th February 2021
  #45
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chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Not here at GS!
Chris
Old 10th February 2021 | Show parent
  #46
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Oldone's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 ➡️
Not here at GS!
Chris
Well, true that!
Old 10th February 2021
  #47
Gear Guru
 
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🎧 5 years
"Bluegrass" Dan's U47 (short body), he bought from Klaus sounds.... Faaaaannnnttttaaaassstic!
(well what else could you expect :lol)
Chris
P.S. It helps that Dan has a great voice too.
Old 16th January 2022
  #48
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clip6's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Neumann instagram is pushing new products soon. Any more rumors on new 47?
Old 16th January 2022 | Show parent
  #49
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 ➡️
"Bluegrass" Dan's U47 (short body), he bought from Klaus sounds.... Faaaaannnnttttaaaassstic!
(well what else could you expect :lol)
Chris
P.S. It helps that Dan has a great voice too.
He sounds just as good on a lowly U87.
Old 16th January 2022 | Show parent
  #50
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by clip6 ➡️
Neumann instagram is pushing new products soon. Any more rumors on new 47?
Look for a new limited run m49
Old 16th January 2022 | Show parent
  #51
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mattcollen's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge ➡️
Look for a new limited run m49
Did you hear anything new? Did you get this from a dealer or Neumann? I’ve been hoping for this to happen. 😀
Old 16th January 2022 | Show parent
  #52
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattcollen ➡️
Did you hear anything new? Did you get this from a dealer or Neumann? I’ve been hoping for this to happen. 😀
They've been releasing pictures hinting of a new tube mic most likely the m49.

Like I said in another thread I don't think it will be a limited run. Like why? If they somehow managed to dig up 100 good ac701 tubes for a limited run they still have to sell them with warranty and who in the right mind want to sell 100 ac701 mics with warranty haha. It most likely will be a Reissue
Old 17th January 2022 | Show parent
  #53
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QueenSisi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Than all vintage neumanns mics would be affordable again.
My guess : a. U87 non AI RE

Last edited by QueenSisi; 17th January 2022 at 08:02 PM..
Old 17th January 2022 | Show parent
  #54
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by crille_mannen ➡️
They've been releasing pictures hinting of a new tube mic most likely the m49.

Like I said in another thread I don't think it will be a limited run. Like why? If they somehow managed to dig up 100 good ac701 tubes for a limited run they still have to sell them with warranty and who in the right mind want to sell 100 ac701 mics with warranty haha. It most likely will be a Reissue
Who knows
Hopefully they figure it out.
7.5k ish
Id like to hear one and compare it to a couple old ones.
Old 17th January 2022 | Show parent
  #55
Gear Guru
 
chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Hate to say it but...

My guess is $8K+ US.
Maybe even $9,999!
Chris
Old 17th January 2022 | Show parent
  #56
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mattcollen's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 ➡️
Hate to say it but...

My guess is $8K+ US.
Maybe even $9,999!
Chris
7.5 to 8K would be fair, if they do it right. I’ll have to sell some things. I can’t wait for them to confirm its release.
Old 17th January 2022
  #57
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
47 will NEVER happen. 49 more believable.
Old 17th January 2022 | Show parent
  #58
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thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge ➡️
Who knows
Hopefully they figure it out.
7.5k ish
Id like to hear one and compare it to a couple old ones.
The price was going to be $10K.
Now with Covid inflationary pressures, price will be higher.
Old 17th January 2022 | Show parent
  #59
Gear Guru
 
chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Uh Oh. Getting the Lottery Ticket tomorrow then!
Chris
Old 17th January 2022 | Show parent
  #60
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 ➡️
Uh Oh. Getting the Lottery Ticket tomorrow then!
Chris
Nah, my guess it will be a little bit North of $10K.

The problem right now is finding the parts. There is a shortage all over and not even a company as big as Sennheiser is immune to that.

Also making a shorter run means they can charge more per mic and sell it out completely. The microphone buyers market at that part of the "costs" atmosphere is not as big as people think.

As much as everyone clamored for the Sony C800G, you can still order it at $10.8K brand new because at that price lets face it only certain people can afford it.
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