Which one would you choose? Whatever I end up buying, they will be paired with 3 or 4 subs using minidsp to fix room modes. I produce and mix pop music.


- Hedd Type 20 (I've been reading lots of good coments everywhere)

- ATC Scm25a (they are a standard but a lot of people say they are the weakest ones in the Scm line)

- Psi a21m (according to reviews, they are really analytical and truthful)

- Barefoot Footprint 01 (lots of good comments)

- Amphion One 18 (like ns-10 with low freq extension)

- Focal Solo6 be (the cheapest of all ones but it gets lots and lots of good comments through out all the forums and reviews)

I have read a lot about this monitors in this forum, bu I don't have the possibility of hearing them live.

Thanks a lot in advance for your comments.

Which ones can you find measurements of? Do these measurements suggest the manufacturers know what they're doing?

Also, do you like ribbons or not?

I used to work with K&H o300. Think they were very honest and flat (too flat in my opinion) and even though they were supposed to give me all the information, a lot of times I didn't know what to do with it, they didn't have a nice transient response and the mids a little bit too much scooped for my taste.

I've been checking measurements of all these speakers but in paper they all are great. What i need is a speaker with nice transients, good freq response, even freq reproduction at low volumes and most important, nice translation.

I haven't seen ribbons and domes compared in terms of transient response but based on what I've heard, ribbons may have the advantage here.

The Hedd 20 is a GREAT speaker below 4k..I’m on ATC scm25 and they’re a fantastic speaker (new cost double the Hedd20). Hedd type30 is mid way, also excellent.
With any of these you’ll get a stellar piece.

These are the ones of your list I’d test in your room IF I were you. Imho a big step ahead of anything else (up to or below 8k pair).
Speak with a dealer and see if you can test them in YOUR room, then decide.

That said, instead of getting 3-4 subs with dsp to try to fix room modes, I’d invest that money toward FIXING the room with specifically designed (and measured) basstraps / treatment for your room. At least as much as possible.

You might not even need a sub.
Ask an acoustician who’s worth its salt.

You might even think of soffitmounting, which imho is the ultimate solution for having a better and true lowend.

Of course soffit mounting is expensive, you can’t do it with every loudspeaker model and not in every room.

I hope this helps somehow,



Cheu

Barefoot MM45 w bass extensions my suggestion ... subs are paired to the monitor so less DSP correction will be needed.

Acoustic treatment is huge and any monitor will be greatly improved by it. Multiple subs sounds like a night mare.

Out of the monitors you listed the Barefoot line offers very flat bandwidth, low frequency extension, with really low distortion, and pairs like the mm26 / mm27 are usually enough for most producers without a sub.

I purchased the FP01 without hearing them and love them. I have left a review or two here and there on GS. Good luck w/ your search, monitors are very personal purchase

Thanks a lot for your answer.

The thing is I'm not in a definitive room, as I'm moving, that's why I'm so interested in the subwoofer way (of course I will use bass traps but they are not useful 100hz down).

About the speakers, PSI is sending me a pair of a21m tomorrow so I can test them. I will tell you my thoughts.

Again, thanks for your help !!!

I'm reading a lot of good reviews about the Footprint 01. How are they translating and how do they manage the midrange freqs?

I've had the oportunity to listen to PSI a21m and a25m this morning. To me, 21's sounded quite normal, good lows but I needed more info in the mid frequency, not much above models like solo6be but then went to the a25m and I must say I think this has been the best speakers I've had the oportunity to listen to, on par with the 8351a. I didn't buy the 8351a in the end because, even though they sounded astonishing, probably the best stereo image I've every heard, the translation with the genelec were not good, my mixed sounded quite dull outside.

I’m not surprised by your findings..
Although made well (and in my country by knowledgeable guys) I never clicked with the psi, even the bigger models..
And even less with the gennies..

Give the Hedd a try.. and if you could the scm25 too..



Cheu

why not try kh neumann speakers?

I used to work with K&H o300. In my opinion, they were outstanding in stereo image and were really comfortable to work with, but they didn't manage transients, especially low end transients quite well and everything sounded like if it was already compressed, don't know how to explain. I heard a lot of info but a lot of times didn't know what to do with it.

i did not experience such issues - but then i've been using the newer 310 version, along with two 810 subs and a lake lm44 to correct and align things...

HEDD Type 20 are great. IMO, best you can get for $4k.

If you can spend a bit more, I have yet to experience translation quite like I get with the MM45s. Tops, mids, low end, transient response. No surprises when I play mixes on headphones, earphones, portable consumer speakers, cars, other people's monitors, etc. Amphion was a close second for me, but I would've wanted to spring for the bass extension system to get the low end clarity and depth I get from the Barefoots without a sub.

IMO the MM45 is their best monitor behind the MM12, even thought the MM27/MM26 is what you see everywhere. Better mid range, a more relaxed tool that gives you the detail Barefoot is known for, but presented in a more "familiar" way, if that makes sense.

They don't need the adjustment period some Barefoot users describe needing with the 26/27, which really pull apart the elements of a mix and scatter them on the table in front of you. You can also get them with microsub45s for less than $10k USD. That's a great value considering what that system is capable of.

The official distributors of PSI in Spain offers me a pair of A25M, used during 2 years for demo, for 6.000€, VAT included. I was listening to them and I must say they impressed me. The thing my room is 2,48 x 4,86 m. with 3,4m height and I don't know if they will be too much for my room and for my listening distance.

What do you guys think?

I’m not a psi fan, although they’re well made in my country. Simply not my thing.

In your room I’d get something else.

BUT I’m not you and not in your room, if you have the chance test them in YOUR place and YOUR ears.



Cheu

Why u don't like them? And what would you get?

Thanks a lot

I never ticked with any of their models..small or big..
Technically speaking they’re well made and they do quality products, but in my opinion and in my experience there are much better speakers outthere.

Depending on the budget and speaker type my list will be:

2way:
- PMC Result6
- ATC scm12pro with a good amp
(scm20asl mk2 with a sub will be more expensive and technically a 3way, great monitors though)
(- if tight on budget I’d look on Hedd 07)

3way:
- ATC scm25 (or if budget and space allows the scm100)
- Hedd Type20 (or if budget and space allows Typ30).. incredible monitors in their price range
- PMC IB2-2 or even the old MB1 or MB2 with a good amp
- KS Digital A200 (dsp on these)
- Neumann KH310 (or if budget and space allows the KH420)

The neumann has a certain “softness” I’m not too fond with, but they offer good sounding monitors for their price, I actually prefer the Hedd’s to these though).

If you want a small 3way and the room it’s not that big the 2 I’d strongly consider are the scm25 and the Hedd Typ20 (or 30).

If you can soffit mount and are planning to do some (serious) acoustic work for your room, I’d look into speakers that are soffit mount “friendly” from ATC (the scm25 are not).

In anycase I strongly suggest to test some loudspeakers in person, either in a shop or even better (ideally) in YOUR room. With YOUR ears and TASTE... in the end what do I know..

You might like the psi, I simply don’t think they translate very well and don’t give me the information I look for.. other people seems to like them (but then there’s people liking Genelec and Adam too, I can’t stand them).

I hope this helps somehow,



Cheu

I'm not into 2 way monitors. I wanted to like them, and I think they are nice as a second pair, but to me, the difference between 2 way and 3 way is substantial. In 2 way I listen to the music as a brick, kind of 2 dimensional, but when switching to 3 way, I listen to a lot of depth and spatials and lots of details such as reverb tails and effects that I'm missing in 2 way speakers, so de 2 way 3 way debate for me is done.

Now my choices are narrowing to atc scm25a, quested v3110, kh 420 (though I had o300 and they were nice in some aspects but not in other ones), hedd type 20 and 30 and finally Dutch & Dutch 8C (I'm trying these ones tomorrow). I really would like to get some atc 50's, but they are out of my reach and guess they are too big for small rooms.

The D&D 8c are more expensive but I think they can can prevent me from buying some subwoofers which I'm thinking of getting to help with room acoustics. Am I wrong with this?

The problem I'm having is in my country (Spain) it is really difficult to find dealers of pro brands, so testing a lot of them in my studio is virtually impossible, that's why I'm asking for so much help.

got not much to do with 2-way vs 3-way imo but the speaker design (coax, horn-loaded, size of woofer, x-over, dsp etc.)

There are some 2ways that are stunning.. but that’s a different discussion

I’d get a pair of scm25 or Hedd typ30 (or 20 if budget/space is an issue) and call it a day..
invest the rest in room acoustics.

IF you need subs get them after you treated correctly your room.

IF you could soffit mount go for the ATC scm50 or 100. If not stick with the above.
(Maybe Hedd has options for soffit mounting the 30, I don’t know, ask them).

Presentation is different between ATC and Hedd, but both are very very good monitors.



Cheu

I have heard or owned basically all of the speakers mentioned. Nothing cab touch Genelec 8351As or Bs which are even better. The issues you described are not related to speakers, but your setup/room/placement. Have you made a measurement and found the cause of the issue? It might me some ugly reflections or dips due to SBIR in the lower region, making the balance skewed and therefore sounding too bright. Good setup of Genelec The Ones are the best speakers you can find in the market today.

It could be the room problem as you say, but there's no doubt that Genelec have always been pointed by a lot of people as too "euphoric", making things sound too good thus making the engineer think the job is done even if it is only 60% (it's happened to me). I don't know if it is a matter of getting used to them, but I've worked with monitors that make you sweat to get a good mix, and I'm on that side of monitors. If I want euphory for the clients, I set up a pair of krk by their side.

FWIW you can't "fix" room modes with DSP. They're an acoustical aka a time domain problem, and according to science, you can't fix a time domain problem in the frequency domain.

And using multiple subs in a poor room is going to be an acoustical/monitoring nightmare.

Spend the money on fixing the room as much as possible - THEN look at DSP for the last 10%.

No, they really don't sound "euphoric". And you shouldn't compare coaxial The Ones to the older series. It is not a matter of getting used to them, it is a matter of setting them up correctly and measure the response. They make your job done when it is done, there is no euphory. Mind you, they are probably one of the most neutral (transparent) sounding speakers. If too good for you means low mid heavy, then you probably had issues with reflections. If it means too bright, than the cause is the same or some room boundary interference causing dips in the lower mids/bass region. You obviously heard them in less than ideal conditions, but I am saying it again, it is not a speaker's issue.

None of this issues was the ones I was experimenting Jantex. I had the room quite controlled with acoustic material and used a combination of sonarworks with a Fabfilter Q3 in linear phase right behind it. It was not a perfect room, for sure, but it was quite workable.

The 8351a sounded awesome, spatials were outstanding, frequency balance was outstanding as well, transient performance was so great, everything was great, in fact, when played them for the first time, it can possibly be the best sonic experience I've ever had in my life, they were truly impressive.

The thing is this sonic experience was, perhaps, too great. When I played several songs on other monitors such as my old k&h o300 (even though they had a lot of flaws in my opinion), I could hear as a mixing engineer, hearing flaws of bad mixed songs and when something was top mixed, they also showed it. With the Genelecs, almost everything sounded quite convincing and nice from the start. If during production stage I threw a Kick Drum on NI Battery, the 80% of them sounded ok for the project, and so on. This is the reason why I think they are great for producing and getting the hype but perhaps, not so much for mixing and mastering.

I really wanted to like them, specially because I was offered a brutal discount from the dealers, but every mix and master I made on these ones sounded great in the studio but not that much outside and wish they made me work harder. This has happened to me and to some other mates in different studios. The conclusion they had is the same, they sound great, but perhaps, too great, they tend to show a beauty that, sometimes, is not there.

Anyway, I'm starting to think of trying them again, who knows!

I see you've been a great defender of genelecs for many years and it is great that you have found a monitor that works so good for you, that's what I'm trying to get as well !

Thanks for your answers Jantex!

I have to admit I never ever experienced such issues neither did anyone else I know. I had KH O300s, Neumann KH310, Atc SCM20ASL, SCM 25s, Focal Solo 6Be, D&D 8Cs. Genelecs 8351/8361 are the only speakers that make my work translate 100% in "what I hear is what I get" manner.

I really paid lots of attention to their setup, because room integration is more than 50% of equation. Are you sure that what you hear on KH O300s as "mistakes", are actual "mistakes" rather than perceives the mistakes caused by the skewed response of these particular speakers in your room, that make you think that something should be improved while on the other hand it doesn't?

You are welcome.

Yes Jantex, they were mistakes, since I know they were not good mixes, and they sounded very acceptable on the 8351a.

Yes Jantex, they were mistakes, since I know they were not good mixes, and they sounded very acceptable on the 8351a.

I do kinda agree..
Although the scm25 IS a fantastic monitor (and it’s not the “weakest” whatever that means).

Imho the Hedd are the closest to that “clarity” and after 4-6k we’re in a territory of diminishing returns for a nearfield.
Strauss monitors plays also at this level imho.

KH310 are not bad, different presentation and a certain softness in the mids/highmids, but a pretty good monitor afterall..
I personally think the Hedd’s are better than the kh310 (and probably even the kh420) at showing flaws/mistakes/issue and are quite a bit clearer/more open.

ATC scm25 are a top nearfield, still today (and also every other atc.. they are amazing tools with a no frills, no BS attitude that I like..they translate incredibly well, shows all the issues that need to be addressed and are not fatiguing, they also do their drivers in house, which imho is a big deal).

So if budget allows I’d go ATC, if not Hedd Typ30 or Typ20. All the other loudspeakers are, imho, not at this level.
(of course taste might play a role too, but these are high quality, high resolution tools).



Cheu