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Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #151
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drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by just_manu ➡️
After having had the opportunity to listen to some of them, I don't think scm25a are better than kh 310 for example, except mids cone (which I have the ns10 for). Guess they were top notch some years ago, but not sure they can compete with some others nowadays. This is only my humble point of view.
If true, this would certainly save lots of speakers shoppers lots of money
And lots of room in the studio and backache from moving those 90 pound speakers
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #152
Deleted fe72b38
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by just_manu ➡️
After having had the opportunity to listen to some of them, I don't think scm25a are better than kh 310 for example, except mids cone (which I have the ns10 for). Guess they were top notch some years ago, but not sure they can compete with some others nowadays. This is only my humble point of view.
Microphone capsule design was mastered literally decades ago, the same for analog design.

The advancements in pro audio has been in the world of digital and yes some do prefer DSP “fly by wire” monitors and some models are very good.

But for me and my ears ATC SCM 25’s are based on traditional engineering methods and the laws of physics to solve a traditional problem presented by the laws of physics.

ATC 25’s present a very different landscape to the Neumann 0310, a landscape that contains considerably more detailed information to aid tracking and mixing.

But there can be nothing more subjective than monitors and my humble opinion is just as humble as yours.
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #153
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
7300 euro against 3400 euro, I hope the SMC 25 give more than the 310.
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #154
Lives for gear
 
cheu78's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus ➡️
7300 euro against 3400 euro, I hope the SMC 25 give more than the 310.
In the audio world in general there’s a diminished returns as you go higher in price..(putting aside the brand or the “marketing” inflation of some brands).

I feel that with 4k today you can get a fantastic pair of monitors..
the ATC’s are expensive, and imho better than the kh310 on several levels..

If they’re worth almost double the price is a very personal choice..
for that 15-20% “improvement” you have to pay a lot more.

For sure they overbuild the magnets and have a special way of approaching things, and build every driver in house.. this is not a cheap decision, r&d to start with, machines and time needed to build every driver..
is much easier and less expensive (and labor intense) to ask a driver manufacturer to spec the driver for you or buy off the shelf.. this is one of the reasons why they’re more expensive..
The other reason is they need to pay for the people doing this, and are based in the UK.
There might be other reasons I’m not aware, but these play a big role for sure.

if you can’t afford or justify them and you’re perfectly happy with the kh310 then it’s all good (or any other contender in the 4k range, like the hedd or the ks digital)

It’s not that this will stop you of making/mixing great records.. all these are very good monitors.
Heck most top mixers I know still mix on ns10, go figure.

The point for me is how easy and fast is to detect (and correct) issues, without losing focus/musicality, while putting out a balanced mix.

In the end is also a matter of knowing the loudspeaker you’re using and having a great sounding room..
These are also important factors and how that loudspeaker integrates in your room is another BIG point.

I’m on scm25 since about 10yrs now, I got them used (they were immaculate) and at a fantastic price.
Later I got a pair of flight cases to bring them with me, if that tells you something.

the bonus is that they tell me exactly what I need to know and my search for a great monitor that WORKS FOR ME is done (instead of “upgrading” every 3-4 years).

Also worth to point out that ANY loudspeaker, no matter the price, is a compromise.. you can’t have everything.. it’s the law of physics.. it’s always a trade off..
the difference is that some philosophies and/or choices have less impact on the negative effects of these trade offs, and of course the price is not going to be low, which is also part of the trade offs.

I hope this put some perspective on why some brands are more expensive than others..

Btw I’m not payed by ATC (or any manufacturer that I speak about on the forum) unfortunately, they should seriously consider it though



Cheu
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #155
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 ➡️
In the audio world in general there’s a diminished returns as you go higher in price..(putting aside the brand or the “marketing” inflation of some brands).

I feel that with 4k today you can get a fantastic pair of monitors..
the ATC’s are expensive, and imho better than the kh310 on several levels..

If they’re worth almost double the price is a very personal choice..
for that 15-20% “improvement” you have to pay a lot more.

For sure they overbuild the magnets and have a special way of approaching things, and build every driver in house.. this is not a cheap decision, r&d to start with, machines and time needed to build every driver..
is much easier and less expensive (and labor intense) to ask a driver manufacturer to spec the driver for you or buy off the shelf.. this is one of the reasons why they’re more expensive..
The other reason is they need to pay for the people doing this, and are based in the UK.
There might be other reasons I’m not aware, but these play a big role for sure.

if you can’t afford or justify them and you’re perfectly happy with the kh310 then it’s all good (or any other contender in the 4k range, like the hedd or the ks digital)

It’s not that this will stop you of making/mixing great records.. all these are very good monitors.
Heck most top mixers I know still mix on ns10, go figure.

The point for me is how easy and fast is to detect (and correct) issues, without losing focus/musicality, while putting out a balanced mix.

In the end is also a matter of knowing the loudspeaker you’re using and having a great sounding room..
These are also important factors and how that loudspeaker integrates in your room is another BIG point.

I’m on scm25 since about 10yrs now, I got them used (they were immaculate) and at a fantastic price.
Later I got a pair of flight cases to bring them with me, if that tells you something.

the bonus is that they tell me exactly what I need to know and my search for a great monitor that WORKS FOR ME is done (instead of “upgrading” every 3-4 years).

Also worth to point out that ANY loudspeaker, no matter the price, is a compromise.. you can’t have everything.. it’s the law of physics.. it’s always a trade off..
the difference is that some philosophies and/or choices have less impact on the negative effects of these trade offs, and of course the price is not going to be low, which is also part of the trade offs.

I hope this put some perspective on why some brands are more expensive than others..

Btw I’m not payed by ATC (or any manufacturer that I speak about on the forum) unfortunately, they should seriously consider it though



Cheu
You not payed by atc but at each thread you are. In the real life, a guy doing what you do, has a wage for.
It's amazing to see on the net people working free for a brand and have payed for.
Amazing world.
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #156
Lives for gear
 
JblKid95's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor ➡️
Microphone capsule design was mastered literally decades ago, the same for analog design.

The advancements in pro audio has been in the world of digital and yes some do prefer DSP “fly by wire” monitors and some models are very good.

But for me and my ears ATC SCM 25’s are based on traditional engineering methods and the laws of physics to solve a traditional problem presented by the laws of physics.

ATC 25’s present a very different landscape to the Neumann 0310, a landscape that contains considerably more detailed information to aid tracking and mixing.

But there can be nothing more subjective than monitors and my humble opinion is just as humble as yours.
Cheu is in every thread. Even ones that have nothing to do with atc. There’s obviously a motive. I remember when I finally decided to move up the ladder and buy the end all monitors. I had made my decision that I wasn’t going to buy atc because I had worked with them and decided it wasn’t something I wanted to listen to everyday it was difficult because he derailed every thread in that direction. The monitor is only detailed in the mids high mids. Everywhere else its an average monitor if I’m being completely honest. For rock music and smashing drums you can get away with that in the low mids but for everything else I felt the need to be constantly turning them up to hear things and pretty Quickly ear fatigue would set in in the worst way. In contrast to a one year old speaker I’m working with now I listen at 70DB the whole day doing intricate things and clipping drums with massive results. I don’t see that As preference to me it’s obviously the benefit of new tech. They are decades old speakers and I expect that type of behavior from them. I enjoyed sound out of them very much though. it is a great experience. Many famous mixers use atc but not alone. To be fair many mixers use multiple speakers. To me they are high end NS10s for Working on mids. The price tag didn’t make sense anywhere else. The weight didn’t make sense either. If I’m spending that much on you with that much weight you better know how to twerk.
In the end no matter the physics. Preferences wins. Times change. Needs change. You can’t sell top of the line vcr video players forever when streaming is out

Last edited by JblKid95; 10th January 2021 at 04:30 PM..
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #157
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JblKid95 ➡️
Cheu is in every thread. Even ones that have nothing to do with atc. There’s obviously a motive. I remember when I finally decided to move up the ladder and buy the end all monitors. I had made my decision that I wasn’t going to buy atc because I had worked with them and decided it wasn’t something I wanted to listen to everyday it was difficult because he derailed every thread in that direction. The monitor is only detailed in the mids high mids. Everywhere else its an average monitor if I’m being completely honest. For rock music and smashing drums you can get away with that in the low mids but for everything else I felt the need to be constantly turning them up to hear things and pretty Quickly ear fatigue would set in in the worst way. In contrast to a one year old speaker I’m working with now I listen at 70DB the whole day doing intricate things and clipping drums with massive results. I don’t see that As preference to me it’s obviously the benefit of new tech. They are decades old speakers and I expect that type of behavior from them. I enjoyed sound out of them very much though. it is a great experience. Many famous mixers use atc but not alone. To be fair many mixers use multiple speakers. To me they are high end NS10s for Working on mids. The price tag didn’t make sense anywhere else. The weight didn’t make sense either. If I’m spending that much on you with that much weight you better know how to twerk.
In the end no matter the physics. Preferences wins. Times change. Needs change
What monitor did you end up choosing?

Also - Cheu does like and recommend the HEDD- a much less costly monitor
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #158
Lives for gear
 
JblKid95's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh ➡️
What monitor did you end up choosing?

Also - Cheu does like and recommend the HEDD- a much less costly monitor
I’ve already answered you multiple times my friend. Hedds are very very good monitors I just didn’t vibe as much as I thought I would in the end. If I’m being honest in the vibe area I’d go with atc over hedds. Hedds do give a little better overall presentation for working. Demo everything even the ones that gets lots of hate you’ll be surprised what you end up with
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #159
Lives for gear
 
cheu78's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh ➡️
What monitor did you end up choosing?

Also - Cheu does like and recommend the HEDD- a much less costly monitor
Thanks for that!

Yes, along with pmc’s, KS digital,(and to some extent Audio Physic or Geithain, although these are just much less known and not always an option for several OP’s).
Btw Neumann does great speakers for the money, I happen to prefer others at that price point.

On the cheap I do think that the kali and jbl’s are amazing, for their price.. of course with the huge help of dsp..
Not my first go to, but on he low end of things these are impressive, for their cost.
Of course there are better monitors, but not at that price.

.. btw I secretely work for everybody, but pssst.. don’t tell anybody...

I’m just sharing my experience, and I do like to support quality products.

On GS there’s a LOT of ppl who are involved in companies they’re pushing, I’m not. Not a single one.

I do pay my bills with my job, as a sound engineer.. (well in the last 9months the gov provide a part of that salary, but that’s a different story).



Cheu
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #160
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 ➡️
Thanks for that!

Yes, along with pmc’s, KS digital
Have you heard the A200 from KS Digital? I've seen there's a MK2 model coming up, I'm interested in those.

Thanks
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #161
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 ➡️
Thanks for that!

Yes, along with pmc’s, KS digital,(and to some extent Audio Physic or Geithain, although these are just much less known and not always an option for several OP’s).
Btw Neumann does great speakers for the money, I happen to prefer others at that price point.

On the cheap I do think that the kali and jbl’s are amazing, for their price.. of course with the huge help of dsp..
Not my first go to, but on he low end of things these are impressive, for their cost.
Of course there are better monitors, but not at that price.

.. btw I secretely work for everybody, but pssst.. don’t tell anybody...

I’m just sharing my experience, and I do like to support quality products.

On GS there’s a LOT of ppl who are involved in companies they’re pushing, I’m not. Not a single one.

I do pay my bills with my job, as a sound engineer.. (well in the last 9months the gov provide a part of that salary, but that’s a different story).



Cheu
Don’t forget your sponsorship by Schoeps

Pushing all those LDCs on us the lemmings
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #162
Deleted fe72b38
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by JblKid95 ➡️
Cheu is in every thread. Even ones that have nothing to do with atc. There’s obviously a motive. I remember when I finally decided to move up the ladder and buy the end all monitors. I had made my decision that I wasn’t going to buy atc because I had worked with them and decided it wasn’t something I wanted to listen to everyday it was difficult because he derailed every thread in that direction. The monitor is only detailed in the mids high mids. Everywhere else its an average monitor if I’m being completely honest. For rock music and smashing drums you can get away with that in the low mids but for everything else I felt the need to be constantly turning them up to hear things and pretty Quickly ear fatigue would set in in the worst way. In contrast to a one year old speaker I’m working with now I listen at 70DB the whole day doing intricate things and clipping drums with massive results. I don’t see that As preference to me it’s obviously the benefit of new tech. They are decades old speakers and I expect that type of behavior from them. I enjoyed sound out of them very much though. it is a great experience. Many famous mixers use atc but not alone. To be fair many mixers use multiple speakers. To me they are high end NS10s for Working on mids. The price tag didn’t make sense anywhere else. The weight didn’t make sense either. If I’m spending that much on you with that much weight you better know how to twerk.
In the end no matter the physics. Preferences wins. Times change. Needs change. You can’t sell top of the line vcr video players forever when streaming is out

Hey fair enough.

I find that every part of the audio spectrum on the ATC 25's, 50's 100's and 150's to be absolutely excellent. (I don't know the 12's and 20's or 45's)

The bass is very tight and articulate and the 3D information is spectacular imho.
Actually almost disconcerting, I was listening to a Steely Dan track and I could sense the size of the room/booth the sax player was standing in when he cut his track - there's so much information present for me it literally dissembles a recording or mix.

The bass is very low distortion and it did take me a few days to adjust when first mixing on ATC monitors but the bass is so articulate and tight, clashing bass notes and timing mistakes are so easily revealed. I can monitor all day at around 78dB without any fatigue as it's actually distortion that causes ear fatigue (and excessive volume of course - true for me of any monitor) the lack of distortion in ATC monitors makes them very kind to my ears.

As I said, this is so subjective though, I can fully understand you having a different preference, after all I do to.

There's literally thousands of different audio tools out there and when people post pictures of their studio's every studio is filled with totally different gear with just a few odd pieces that are fairly common, like a Neve 1073 for example.

For me, when it comes to monitors the laws of physics and traditional engineering solutions do matter - for others not so much - it's all good with me, I fully agree with you preference always wins when choosing any creative tool
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #163
Lives for gear
 
cheu78's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_mixer ➡️
Have you heard the A200 from KS Digital? I've seen there's a MK2 model coming up, I'm interested in those.

Thanks
I was impressed about 12yrs ago with their C5 tiny..
The A200 mk1 was a nice monitor, dsp based as the whole line.. I didn’t spent a lot of time with it, so my experience is quite limited, but it was a capable performer.. nice mixing tool for the $.

The new MK2 appear to have a different woofer and a different midrange driver..the woofer looks like some sort of paper woofer (from the pics)..
I never heard the new MK2, so can’t comment if it’s better or not or how different they are..

I believe that if you order from thomann you have 30days, which is what I always suggest to do anyway.. despite my blabbering (or anybody elses, really) try to test the loudspeakers in YOUR room and decide with your ears..
This is so much better than relying on infos on the net, although some of them might be rather accurate/on point.. it’s still based on the experience on a room (and ears) that’s not yours.

Maybe ask KS digital on the changes directly..
That’s always a good opportunity to “feel” the company and their customer service.

I hope this helps,



Cheu
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #164
Lives for gear
 
cheu78's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh ➡️
Don’t forget your sponsorship by Schoeps

Pushing all those LDCs on us the lemmings
...and by Neumann, Beyerdynamic, probably Lewitt, Sennheiser, Shure, line audio, Coles, Manley, etc etc..





Cheu

P.S.: Schoeps doesn’t make any LDC afaik, they do have an MDC which is the V4U, all the others are sdc’s.
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #165
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
You forgot the brand of your computer, your seat and your Fridge.
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #166
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
One other point in this decision tree I think is paramount above speaker brand - the room. In many ways a speaker demo is more of a demo of your room than the speaker. I know from experience room can account for massive differences in opinion about one speaker over the other. It explains a lot in threads here, how one can hear it so differently than another yet still turn in a great translatable mix. Bill Schnee’s old studio- his mastering labs tannoys sounded brilliant and every ATC I put in there was awful. Course it was an oval control room but the point is the same. It was all about finding something that had the inverse of the room.

So our opinions are perhaps most influenced by room - no matter how good the room and speakers are.
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #167
Lives for gear
 
cheu78's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus ➡️
You forgot the brand of your computer, your seat and your Fridge.
I didn’t want to show off





Cheu
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #168
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus ➡️
You forgot the brand of your computer, your seat and your Fridge.
I can speak to that - do NOT buy a kitchenaide fridge
Old 11th January 2021 | Show parent
  #169
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JblKid95 ➡️
Cheu is in every thread. Even ones that have nothing to do with atc. There’s obviously a motive.
Well, I think the only motive is that he has worked with them for many years, loves them, and feels no need to upgrade. What else is he supposed to say? As Brad Lunde has said, ATC doesn't need to pay for recommendations. Unless its small army of users is delusional, they must be doing something right.
Old 11th January 2021 | Show parent
  #170
Lives for gear
 
JblKid95's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt ➡️
Well, I think the only motive is that he has worked with them for many years, loves them, and feels no need to upgrade. What else is he supposed to say? As Brad Lunde has said, ATC doesn't need to pay for recommendations. Unless its small army of users is delusional, they must be doing something right.
When you don’t endorse it makes sense to have something like this in forums. Every company needs endorsement. Atc is no different
Old 11th January 2021 | Show parent
  #171
Gear Addict
 
just_manu's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I think cheu is only trying to let us know how he likes the atc speakers. I wish I could do the same someday. At the moment, I'm still on my search, but getting closer day after day.

Thank you all for all your comments.
Old 11th January 2021 | Show parent
  #172
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Don't forget than nobody can listen with your ears and your brain.
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