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Where are we up to with Digital?
Old 22nd November 2002
  #121
Terminologist
 
samiam's Avatar
As the listening public goes from 16 bit 44.1 KHz CD's to better listening formats

Am I the only one here who is convinced that the public does not want and will not buy in to a "better then CD" audio format. In particular, our post-Napster generation will be very leery of any attempt to make "digital rights management" stronger.

I think such a format will eventually catch on, but it needs to have something more that really benefits consumers besides better audio that they can not hear anyway.

One thing consumers want is more audio. Another thing consumers want is a record button. Both of these things are why the MP3 players are selling like hotcakes.

Something that can not skip would be a real benefit for the consumer. Something that can be used with a player that can fit on a keychain would benefit the consumer. Something that is not proprietary would benefit the customer.

Why do I get the feeling that the next big format will use some form of compact-flash-style ROMs?

As for digital, it has a different sound than analog. As a reault, people who fell in love with the analog sound will not go for digital, no matter how much we flame here. The music business is just about the only business which still uses tube technology because people fell in love with the sound of tubes; there is nothing out there that can sound like a tube besides a tube. For the same reason, analog is not going anywhere.

- Sam


- Sam
Old 22nd November 2002
  #122
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman


If the problem is with fader math you don't even need to do something so drastic to hear it. Simply move a fader .1 db, or whatever the finest gradation that is available. You won't hear much, if any, volume change so the "bad math" effect should be obvious. I mean, a small change like that requires just as intensive calculations, if not more, as anything else.

Try taking one of your sessions and automate some tiny volume moves and see if you hear anything anomalous. I'm guessing you won't.

On the other hand, if you are running direct outs into a console, then changing a fader in Protools will affect how hard you are hitting the front end of the console inputs. If you are slamming your inputs "just so" with your drum tracks and then back them off you may well lose that magic thing you had going.

-Rick

Right ..... 'bad math' ..... and what does 'bad math' sound like ? I mean .... I move my fader in Protools to change the volume ... duh ... but how '****' does that make my sound ??? what exactly is it that I should listen to ???

'bad math' means nothing to me. I wanna know / hear what 'bad math' is supposed to mean.

Does I mean that its the sound gets sautared ? looses high / mid / bass ?? What ????

I wanna know what exactly it is that you're supposed to hear when you move a fader in a daw compared to doing that same fader move on a high end console. If it does sound like '****' as mixerman claims one should be able to hear it.

enough cow boy statements ..... I need evidence please. Mixerman step foreward and educate me please.
Old 23rd November 2002
  #123
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Guys....many of you have PT...trust what you hear.

I believe the 'less real, less true' change I hear when moving PT faders is the approximation/rounding errors of the digital math. I don't move PT faders anymore. That's me.

Trust what you hear.

Jon
Old 23rd November 2002
  #124
Lives for gear
 
Volodia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by C.Lambrechts





I need evidence please.
This was posted by Nika and it sums it up

"What actually happens is so long as you leave your fader at unity gain, nothing happens to the signal at all and it leaves the 888io24 as a full code 24 bit data stream. No problems.
If you turn the faders UP it adds zeros or partial zeros to your data and it leaves as a full code 24 bit audio stream with everything in tact. No problems.

If you turn something down it is not that simple, and is worthy of a thread of its own. Turning something down in Protools means that Protools must assign new numeric values for all of your sample points. If you turn the mix down by 6dB, it needs to cut all of the numeric values in half. Let's come up with a signal and an example. In this example we have a declining triangle wave going from a peak of 8 to it's zero crossing point in a steady line:
0000 0000 0000 1000 = 8
0000 0000 0000 0111 = 7
0000 0000 0000 0110 = 6
0000 0000 0000 0101 = 5
0000 0000 0000 0100 = 4
0000 0000 0000 0011 = 3
0000 0000 0000 0010 = 2
0000 0000 0000 0001 = 1
0000 0000 0000 0000 = 0

Now we reduce this signal by 6dB and you cut the signals all in half, but because you have odd numbers you must round up, thus:
0000 0000 0000 0100 = 4
0000 0000 0000 0100 = 4
0000 0000 0000 0011 = 3
0000 0000 0000 0011 = 3
0000 0000 0000 0010 = 2
0000 0000 0000 0010 = 2
0000 0000 0000 0000 = 1
0000 0000 0000 0001 = 1
0000 0000 0000 0000 = 0

And this is not a straight line like we had before. This is a crooked line that has quantization error. There are many potential ways that this could be solved. One would be for Digidesign to allow 32 bit datapaths so that the full integrity of that signal would make it through. One more would be for Digidesign to have a 32 bit floating point datapath so that we could maintain the full 24 bit code and just shift the scale by a factor of 1. Finally, Digidesign could allow us to merely dither the data before it goes to the outputs so that our straight line doesn't have clean stairsteps indicating harmonic content, but rather a line with very random variations, allowing for no harmonic content added to your signal, but rather a low level whitenoise.

So this is what Digidesign's dithering mixer does. If you plan on mixing externally DON'T use the dithering mixer as it will only add noise to your signals (that you'll be running at full gain). If you mix internally use the dithering mixer to help reduce harmonic artefacts from adjust levels on the built in faders.
.....
As for the mix bus issue, you should ALWAYS run your mix bus hot! ALWAYS! This is often the weakest link of a digital audio mixer, and most signal problems have to do with us turning DOWN our signals enough that the mix bus can handle them. It's this turning down of channels that leads to errors and harmonic distortion . So always push your mix bus as hot as you can so that you're doing as little digital gain reduction as is possible.
Nika"
Old 24th November 2002
  #125
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Guys....many of you have PT...trust what you hear.

I believe the 'less real, less true' change I hear when moving PT faders is the approximation/rounding errors of the digital math. I don't move PT faders anymore. That's me.

Trust what you hear.

Jon
Jon, did you get those samples I sent you yet? If there is a problem with Protools faders I would think that you could hear the effect of running a vocal sample through 16 of them.

Let us know if you think my comparison samples employ a valid methodology and I'll put them on the Manley site so people like Chris L. can access some real evidence regarding this issue.

How about somebody else doing a test of these mysterious faders in an effort to demonstrate the signal deterioration resulting from fader moves. Maybe try running some drum tracks through a series of faders, adjusting up and down (with a net zero change), and comparing with the unmoved fader tracks.

-Rick
Old 24th November 2002
  #126
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Rick, your CD has not yet arrived.

Do all the samples sound identical to you? What is your personal conclusion about them?

When I receive it, I will let you know.
Old 25th November 2002
  #127
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Rick, your CD has not yet arrived.

Do all the samples sound identical to you? What is your personal conclusion about them?
I don't wish to bias your perception. You are more objective than I because you haven't heard any of this, so it will be valuable initially to see what you think. It's not a trick or a challenge--I'm truly curious. And if you think it is interesting, I'll make the sounds available to others before I post my own conclusions.

As you say, trust your ears.

-Rick
Old 2nd December 2002
  #128
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
So Jon, you got my CD. How about posting your impressions here? Or should we start another thread?

-R
Old 2nd December 2002
  #129
Old 3rd December 2002
  #130
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yes, as I indicated by email to you, I received your CD.

I will post about it on a new thread when I have the time to listen to it.
Old 9th December 2002
  #131
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Yes, as I indicated by email to you, I received your CD.

I will post about it on a new thread when I have the time to listen to it.
Yo Jon, you there? Actually, I haven't seen you posting much so I assume you're pretty busy. However, it won't take long to listen to those files--they're very short--and you needn't stress over it for long. Whatever you hear will be a valid result.

Many people have made repeated comments to the effect that "everybody knows that moving a fader in Protools screws up the sound." Other people I know think that the notion is patently ridiculous. Here's a little piece of research that may shed some light on this.

As you are someone who has weighed in on the issue as a moderator on a very public forum, your opinion will certainly carry some, well, weight.

(sorry, nothing more than a verbose bump).

-R
Old 10th December 2002
  #132
lnd
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Volodia
This was posted by Nika and it sums it up

snip
As for the mix bus issue, you should ALWAYS run your mix bus hot! ALWAYS! This is often the weakest link of a digital audio mixer, and most signal problems have to do with us turning DOWN our signals enough that the mix bus can handle them. It's this turning down of channels that leads to errors and harmonic distortion . So always push your mix bus as hot as you can so that you're doing as little digital gain reduction as is possible.
Nika"
hmmmm so why is it then that when I do run the mix bus hot it sounds **** - loses dimension - I have to pull the faders down to regain that depth and space..... I know Nika is very throurough but this is definitely a case of what you see is not what you get..
Old 10th December 2002
  #133
Lives for gear
 
atticus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by lnd
hmmmm so why is it then that when I do run the mix bus hot it sounds **** - loses dimension - I have to pull the faders down to regain that depth and space..... I know Nika is very throurough but this is definitely a case of what you see is not what you get..
Digital mixing is kind of like bidding on the Price is Right. You have to get as close as you can to the maximum without going over.
Old 16th December 2002
  #134
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
Yo Jon, you there? Actually, I haven't seen you posting much so I assume you're pretty busy. However, it won't take long to listen to those files--they're very short--and you needn't stress over it for long. Whatever you hear will be a valid result.

-R
bump
Old 27th December 2002
  #135
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Man I feel for you Krizman. There you are trying to actually put words into action and that guy basically tried to bail on you form the moment you said upload....... "I dont have fast internet connection" Bull****!. I dont know a single half decent studio in Paris that doesnt.

Krizman, regardless of what your tests proove. I feel you are wasting your time. But at least you tried and thats the main thing.


havent you noticed in this forum when the heat is on the so called 'Big Boys', and 'The Know It Alls' They very quickly bail. I wont name names but they know exactly who they are.

Big Boys my ass!. wannabees for the most part..................................................................................................

Old 27th December 2002
  #136
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hi Robinhood,

I am happy to say that our studio just got hooked up to high-speed internet access today. It's great!

I said I would listen to Rick's tracks and I will -- in the control room during a studio off-day when I'm not off. Clients and studio work come first though and we are particularly busy at the moment, which I hope you can understand.

Are you in Paris? Your profile gives no information and I have no idea who you are.


Jon
Old 27th December 2002
  #137
Gear Addict
 
mixer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by samiam
As the listening public goes from 16 bit 44.1 KHz CD's to better listening formats

Am I the only one here who is convinced that the public does not want and will not buy in to a "better then CD" audio format. In particular, our post-Napster generation will be very leery of any attempt to make "digital rights management" stronger


- Sam
i gave a talk at a high school before the christmass break..i was amazed...the new generation really could care less about audio quality..at least most of the ones i talked to...they are very happy with the quality of mp3s and don't even claim to hear a difference in cd quality..this was particularly alarming because it was a music class.....really scary.....
Old 28th December 2002
  #138
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Again, all this cahtter about how's and why's you need to approach using digital different.

I started in Analogue, and moved into digital, starting with ADATS.
Adat's sounded like ****e.

Then I moved into using Pro-tools, same ****.

Then, I tried the Fairlight stuff.

Now, I work the way I did when using analogue. I don't worry about changing levels (40bit floating processing). I don't lose dimension and width. I jusr worry about getting good sounds at the source the way I used too. And I still record at 48k. 48 tracks on a single drive. No thinking. No Bull****. No questioning MY abilities.


Jon, Try and get Fairlight to get you a demo of one of their QDC machines. Cheapeer than a 3348. And with a piece of software from mediamagic, you can convert Pro-Tools sessions into Fairlight format.
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