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Where are we up to with Digital?
Old 5th November 2002
  #91
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Any mix examples, just for fun?
radiohead... kid A. i can easily hear the gate opening and closing on the vox tracks. just one that pops to mind.
Old 5th November 2002
  #92
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jax
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk


joe satriani? you have GOT to be kidding...


Yeah, that was sarcasm.
whew... thank god.


try on buddy guys sweet tea album.


actually, laswell did a fine job on the marley and miles remixes.... and that was from original source material. i would LOVE if he did hendrix's electric ladyland album.
Old 5th November 2002
  #93
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jon


Rick, sounds like fun. If you're willing to mail me a CD-R with the audio files, I'll import them into PT and listen. My internet connection is way too slow for 18 meg.
What, no cable modem? Okay, what's the address.

Rick

[email protected]
Old 5th November 2002
  #94
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jon

I agree with you on Watt's 70's snare sounds...pretty cool. I like those 70's snares better for the Stones than the 80's big snares and 90's smashed snares.
And the 21st century pingy biscuit tin snares.
I agree also about the Charlie Watts quality drum sounds.
About the previous comment...
You should be able to achieve an exciting drum sound without resorting to overblown ambience tracks. Yes it's a matter of personal taste, having said that I believe it's time to move on. It's SO been done before. Please save me from Phil Collins and The Power Station.
Old 5th November 2002
  #95
Lives for gear
 
Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Please save me from Phil Collins andThe Power Station.

HAHA.. chrisso.... Fessup... i bet u are secretly loving that drumsound so much ... and your're now hoping that everyone is gona ditch their AMS-RMX16 so u can buy them cheap... as well as the drawmer gates... Two of the most aligned tools used to create the signature 80's drum sounds.... but i still love them to bits.

If you can find an RMX-16 in good order that is not too noisy they are an awesome reverb that puts plugins to shame... Same with the Quantec room simulator..... Digital in its infancy that still sounds great!!!

PEACE
Wiggy
Old 5th November 2002
  #96
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisso

You should be able to achieve an exciting drum sound without resorting to overblown ambience tracks. Yes it's a matter of personal taste, having said that I believe it's time to move on. It's SO been done before.
"Been done before". So what? I was in one band that worried too much about things they played that had "been done before". The result was we didn't get any good music happening until we got over that insecurity. What matters is that you do it in your own way, and don't get stuck on being orignal as the most important criteria.

There is too much music and art out there to even try and claim to do something that has never been done before. Have you heard it all? No, you haven't. No one has. Someone will always counter you and point out where "your idea" originated from, or that you couldn't have done it without ______. So I'm for doing it your own way, and if it happens to be a new idea in music, more power to you.
Old 6th November 2002
  #97
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jax


"Been done before". So what?
We're talking about ambient drum sounds here not great art. With your attitude we'd still be using stand up bass and playing Elvis songs.
Old 6th November 2002
  #98
Gear Addict
 
mplancke's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk


Not to mention you dont have to get that "digital" sound... its already there... although i have heard many analog recordings loaded with hiss i wish had that "digital" sound.
Most of the hiss that I experience comes from less than optimal gain staging or older outboard gear which can benefit from some upgrades. Very little hiss is added to a recording from the tape itself.
Old 6th November 2002
  #99
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by mplancke

Very little hiss is added to a recording from the tape itself.
i dont know about that... simple physics would disagree.

although some equipment CAN be pretty noisy depending on the source, the engineer, the condition of the equipment. im mixing something someone else tracked right now recorded digitally and there is so much freakin "hiss" on it, driving me freaking NUTS. NOTHING i record has this much hiss.... unless its an amp on full bore with a big muff in line.
Old 7th November 2002
  #100
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisso

We're talking about ambient drum sounds here not great art.
Sure, if you want to look at the small picture. But a statement that dismisses proven techniques without much basis for what could replace them is pretty short-sighted. I'm sorry if you have trouble expanding your sights beyond what is right in front of you, or maybe I see the big picture too often.

With your attitude we'd still be using stand up bass and playing Elvis songs.

Despite how my 'tude was interpreted by you, I have no desire to harken back to the days of old unless it is truly appropriate. That was my point.
Old 7th November 2002
  #101
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
re: charlie watts snare

I have a chum in London ( an older fella ) who played with charlie off and on in the late sixties and early seventies, and he said watts was adamant about the bassist not playing on two or four, and said if you listen closly to those early records you will notice that as many elements of the band as pos ( and esp the rhytmn section) stopp for those snare hits.. it competes with nothing, and sounds great..
Old 7th November 2002
  #102
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: re: charlie watts snare

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Smith
you will notice that as many elements of the band as pos ( and esp the rhytmn section) stopp for those snare hits.. it competes with nothing, and sounds great..
Yeah even the hi-hat stops (if you watch closely).
I suppose you've all heard his answer to the question 'what was it like being in The Stones 25 years?'.
"Yeah great, 5 years playing and 20 hanging around".
Old 8th November 2002
  #103
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Yup, Charlie is known for not playing the hi hat on 2 and 4. I didn't realize he made the rest of the band fall into that arragement quite often as well. Steve: going over some early Stones songs in my head, I hear what you're taking about. Charlie is a simple kind of genius!
Old 17th November 2002
  #104
Lives for gear
 
Mixerman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman


As far as Mixerman goes, he didn't really suffer any misery from the digi-dudes. I believe he relished every moment on his road to stardom. Yup, the -6 db stuff was bull****, but so was the "move-a-fader-wreck-the-sound rant" and all the other invented reasons that PT allegedly sounds inferior, none of which could be demonstrated.
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
WHAT????!!!!

It's absolutely NOT bull****. Every engineer worth their salt knows that when you move the faders in the Mix Plus it degrades the audio. How you continue to argue against this premise is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

As to the -6db stuff being bull****. I'll play you the comparison CD.

You be the judge, Rick. But to say that my asertions are bull****, is putting your head in the sand.

Mixerman
Old 18th November 2002
  #105
Lives for gear
 
Mixerman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman


He's not anonymous to me either, but "Mixerman" is in fact a pseudonym, and a pseudonym behind which a lot of anti-Protools pillage and rape has occurred.

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
No, Mixerman has stood AGAINST the raping and pillaging associated with Pro Tools. You have it backwards.

Mixerman
Old 18th November 2002
  #106
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Maybe start your own thread so people who are interested in the topic don't have to wade through MM arguing about himself with others. It's not unilkely that this crap will balloon out of proportion and OT.

Call it "Mixerman's Complaint Desk".

Thanks
Old 18th November 2002
  #107
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Mixerman


WHAT????!!!!

It's absolutely NOT bull****. Every engineer worth their salt knows that when you move the faders in the Mix Plus it degrades the audio. How you continue to argue against this premise is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

As to the -6db stuff being bull****. I'll play you the comparison CD.

You be the judge, Rick. But to say that my asertions are bull****, is putting your head in the sand.

Mixerman
MM,

There is no low end problem with the 192. I have one which I use daily and in fact prefer it to my Apogees primarily because of it's improved low end extension. I think you're blaming the wrong box for whatever problem you may have had. And considering that I was the one who brought your whole issue of this to the DUC and participated in threads which totalled more than a thousand posts, which resulted in no retesting and no independent verification of the problem, mostly just a lot of uninformative vitriol, yes, I think I'm entitled to say the issue was "bull****". ( Nothing personal--I certainly chipped in my share and it's always fun to rattle the cage).

As far as fader problems in MixPlus, I put together my own tests and found no problem. Likewise, I recently did a test in HD and found no problem. If you like, I can send you three vocal snippets, and you can tell me which one went through 16 fader moves, which one went through 2, and which one was left at zero. Actually, I'll be uploading these to EveAnna's site when she gets back from Japan. I'll remind you then to check it out for yourself.

Perhaps there is a special kind of hearing required to perceive all this. Last I looked there was no sand in my ears, and my ability to perceive fine distinctions in performance, timbre and emotional delivery seems intact.

But I assure you, if proven wrong, I will be the first to embrace the new understanding and will rejoice in having learned another reason why digital recording still doesn't measure up in some ways. These problems should be simple to demonstrate, but AFAIK nobody has (your test CD notwithstanding).

-Rick
Old 18th November 2002
  #108
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
My analog vs.digital epiphany came when I was doing a session for an old friend.

He had called and asked me to set up a session several months ahead for a day when a couple very old friends of his happened to be going to be in town and available for a session together for the first time in more than ten years. We had been talking about wanting to do an analog project again for some time and this seemed like the perfect opportunity. A few weeks before the session, I found out that I could rent a 16 track head stack for the Studer 827 at the studio. Since we were talking about bass, piano, guitar and drums with no overdubbing, there was no reason not to do it 16 track.

As I stood over the console thinking about moving one of the drum overheads over an inch, it suddenly dawned on me that I hadn't had the mental space to think seriously about that subtile of an adjustment during a rhythm session since leaving Motown. The more I thought about it, the more pissed off I got. We'd been through 24 track, Dolby to clean up the 24 track, noise gates to clean up the 24 track, console automation to clean up the 24 track, digital to clean up everything left and here I was 25 years later right where I had left off in 1972 not having to give sound quality a second thought. I'd completely forgotten what that experience was like.

The "kicker" was when we hooked up a Panasonic 3700 for some quick ruffs to take home.
Old 18th November 2002
  #109
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I never received your CD, Rick.

Bob, I hear you...thanks for that post reminding us of the full circle of history.

Analog moments...like the vocal overdub session the other day. All the music was on 24-track analog on the A820 (no NR) and only 3 tracks were left, so, fearing we'd need more than that for the BVs, we synced up PT to it and tracked the backing vocals to PT. They just didn't mesh and sounded flat, as in no life, no depth, compared to the rest of the mix. We then tracked a couple more takes into the Studer instead. They sounded much better -- and fit right in the mix, so much so that we decided we didn't need more tracks like we originally thought. We shut off the PT and were able to mix down just from the analog tape.

Man, to have a 16-track 2", a 24-track 2" and a 1" 2-track...I'd be set for a lifetime.
Old 18th November 2002
  #110
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jon
I never received your CD, Rick.

I didn't send it. I'll be posting the files at the Manley site soon so you and anyone else who is interested can download them. Heck, maybe I'll mail you one anyway--it was you who was maintaining that a fader move could screw up a vocal track, so I am curious if you can identify which is which.

BTW, if we do this let's keep in mind that I'm not trying to prove that digital sounds better or worse than analog, or cheerlead for Protools. I love those sweet analog sounds as much as the next guy. I'm merely trying to separate fact from mythology in trying to account for the difference.

-Rick
Old 19th November 2002
  #111
Lives for gear
 
groundcontrol's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Fair enough.
Old 19th November 2002
  #112
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
There is no mythology. You have to trust what your ears tell you. If PT fader moves don't bother you, then PT fader moves aren't a problem.

I look forward to receiving the CD.
Old 19th November 2002
  #113
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
key to the issue is I think,

If you patch DIRECT OUTS
or if you mix in the box

Old 19th November 2002
  #114
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yes!

Very true.
Old 19th November 2002
  #115
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I've had better overall clarity when using Waves 48 bit double precision plugs as fader volume controls, leaving the channel faders at 0.0. Using a Mix system (still).
Old 20th November 2002
  #116
Lives for gear
 
Mixerman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
key to the issue is I think,

If you patch DIRECT OUTS
or if you mix in the box

If you use the Direct Outs the sound goes to **** once you move the faders.

Mixerman
Old 21st November 2002
  #117
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm pretty sure Jules meant PT faders at unity, no panning, for the direct outs.
Old 22nd November 2002
  #118
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Mixerman


If you use the Direct Outs the sound goes to **** once you move the faders.

Mixerman

just curious .... what do you mean exactly with 'sound goes to ****' ?? I can't help but wonder .....

like for example .... would you be able to tell the difference between say a fade out done on a daw and the same fade out done on an analog desk.

And if so ... would you hear it on a complete mix or on a single track or maybe on a group master (drums for example).


Don't get me wrong mixerman. Not trying to get into a discussion on analog vs digital with you. Not even attempting to try to convince you. From reading your stories I think that is quite useless and I'm fine with your opinion. I have absolutely no problem with you prefering analog over digital.

I do have a problem on the other hand with the 'sound goes to ****' statement and wonder if you could enlighten me to what grade or to what level it goes to '****' ..... Realy .... very curious indeed.

Maybe explain how and what I should hear 'going to ****'.


Thank you,
Old 22nd November 2002
  #119
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by C.Lambrechts


like for example .... would you be able to tell the difference between say a fade out done on a daw and the same fade out done on an analog desk.
If the problem is with fader math you don't even need to do something so drastic to hear it. Simply move a fader .1 db, or whatever the finest gradation that is available. You won't hear much, if any, volume change so the "bad math" effect should be obvious. I mean, a small change like that requires just as intensive calculations, if not more, as anything else.

Try taking one of your sessions and automate some tiny volume moves and see if you hear anything anomalous. I'm guessing you won't.

On the other hand, if you are running direct outs into a console, then changing a fader in Protools will affect how hard you are hitting the front end of the console inputs. If you are slamming your inputs "just so" with your drum tracks and then back them off you may well lose that magic thing you had going.

-Rick
Old 22nd November 2002
  #120
Jr. Gear Slut 2nd class
 
chessparov's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
As the listening public goes from 16 bit 44.1 KHz CD's to better listening formats, will that make the quality of the digital format
used that MUCH more critical than it is today?
I think non-audiophiles and non-engineers sense when a song's
sonics sound more "real" to them. (even 13 year olds)

Great thread BTW, some of it is above my head due to lack of
experience, however, it gets me thinking and hiding my wallet
at the same time.

Chris

After reading all these heady discussion points,
it would be a kick to see the professionals here involved
in a contest to see who could make the best sounding single.
Everyone would limited to a Tascam 424, and a SM57.
Hey, if it works for Elliot Smith and Guided By Voices...
πŸ“ Reply

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