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Neumann KH 750 - read before you buy it
Old 7th February 2021
  #151
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SteelyDani's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
A month ago I bought a pair of KH 80s for my home desktop PC with a Traveler MK3 interface. Until now, at home I used headphones calibrated with Sonarworks.

Using REW and the Neumann App. Control I have performed a meticulous manual alignment.

In short, I am amazed at the sound and sheer transparency and quality of the KH 80. I have even made some small adjustments at home to mixes made in the studio. I am so satisfied that I intend to add a KH 750 and calibrate the set with the MA 1 system.

I'm even thinking of buying a second KH 750 for the studio and my question is: With the help of the MA 1 wouldl I be able to calibrate the KH 750 + a pair of Genelec 1031s? Neumann points out that the monitors must be Neumann, even the non-DSP-based ones like the KH 120, 310, 420 ... I wonder how the MA1 system could discern if the non DSP monitors plugged into KH 750 are Neumann or not.
Old 7th February 2021 | Show parent
  #152
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depulse's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by adambier ➡️
The KH 750 actually has an AES-3id input (which is functionally the same as SPDIF) with a BNC connector, so all you need is an RCA cable and a RCA female to BNC male adaptor. Both types of connections use coax cable at 75 ohms. [edit: see photo immediately above]

The part Neumann mentions adapts AES-3 (no “id”suffix), which is a balanced, twisted-pair cable with XLR connectors at 110 ohms, to a coaxial BNC (at 75 ohms). But your interface already puts out the correct signal at the correct impedance, so you don’t need that.
Would this cable work?

https://www.thomann.de/intl/pro_snak...beladapter.htm
Old 7th February 2021 | Show parent
  #153
Here for the gear
 
It should, yes.
Old 11th February 2021 | Show parent
  #154
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Hi Tangear, please check your PM
Old 27th February 2021 | Show parent
  #155
Gear Head
 
hello friends, is there any way to bypass the sub? for example a pedal or a button? Thank you
Old 28th February 2021 | Show parent
  #156
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SteelyDani's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by victoredmundo ➡️
hello friends, is there any way to bypass the sub? for example a pedal or a button? Thank you
I guess with the Neumann.Control App you can control the sub level and even override it. In any case, this solution is not instantaneous.

Of course, the DSP setting will change a lot with or without a subwoofer, so you should save two presets.

Last edited by SteelyDani; 28th February 2021 at 09:12 AM.. Reason: Complete the information.
Old 3rd March 2021 | Show parent
  #157
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🎧 5 years
The reason why it only works with Neumann speakers is because the DSP implements some filtering to correct for the phase response of the speakers... because the phase response is specific for each model it is unlikely that applying said phase correction for a speaker not accounted by Neumann could produce favorable results... you can certainly try since the system won’t impede anything, but my guess is that the results won’t be satisfactory
Old 3rd March 2021 | Show parent
  #158
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SteelyDani's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsierral ➡️
The reason why it only works with Neumann speakers is because the DSP implements some filtering to correct for the phase response of the speakers... because the phase response is specific for each model it is unlikely that applying said phase correction for a speaker not accounted by Neumann could produce favorable results... you can certainly try since the system won’t impede anything, but my guess is that the results won’t be satisfactory
The first thing I want to point out is that I am far from being an expert in speaker calibration. With that said, I understand your reasoning, but I'm not sure I share it.

Phase problems when integrating a system with one KH 750 and two non-Neumann monitors can arise from various reasons. In my opinion the most important is the location of the subwoofer and monitors. The simple fact that the subwoofer is on the ground places it 3 to 4 feet further from the listener's head with proximity monitors, which means a time delay of about 2.5 / 3.5 ms. This value is enormous and in my opinion it would have much more influence on the phase alignment than the characteristics of the monitors themselves.

In any case, the alignment between the KH 750 whose crossover is 80 Hz and the monitors does not seem like a complicated task to perform. Using for example REW it seems easy to adjust the two phase controls of the KH 750 to obtain a correct phase coherence with the monitors regardless of their brand.

What I find much more difficult is to optimize the amplitude response of the set by adjusting the values ​​of the parametric equalizer according to the acoustic properties of the room. I have done it manually with a pair of KH 80s and had to repeat trial / error measurements with REW many times to get a correct result. In this regard, I cannot find any reason why MA 1 should not achieve good results with non-Neumann monitors.
Old 21st March 2021 | Show parent
  #159
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Neumann say to use this
Neutrik AES/EBU Digital Impedance Transformer Adapter (110 Ohm to 75 Ohm)
Old 22nd March 2021
  #160
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Is it sorted now from Neumann coz I’m thinking to buy Kh120A with kh750 sub
Old 27th March 2021 | Show parent
  #161
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🎧 10 years
Is anyone here fully set up on a KH80 / 750 system using the MA1 calibration? If so what has your experience been like?

My current set up is Focal Solo 6’s with Sonarworks. I’ve been thinking about moving to 3 way speakers and this looks like a potential alternative. I have worked with subs in the past and always felt like the bass was disconnected from the whole sound, but maybe in this new world of DSP / frequency / phase correction I will like it better?

It looks like you can buy a KH80/750/MA1 package new for $2650, which would be a steal in the world of even mid range 3 way monitors. Not to mention you get, in theory, better correction than what sonarworks can offer.

Any input is appreciated.
Old 28th March 2021 | Show parent
  #162
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🎧 10 years
KH750 & KH120 vs KH310

I’ve been using Neumann Kh120s for around 9 years and have been thinking of improving the setup. I feel I’m lacking a bit of resolution across the frequency range so i’m looking at possible upgrades.

First of all I like the Neumann’s in conjunction with Sonarworks and my mono mixcube and VSX so I was naturally looking at moving up to a pair of KH310s. However I’ve just seen the KH750 and MA1 combination has just been released. Would pairing the sub to the KH120s be a system on a par with the KH310s without the the sub? I definitely can’t afford to buy the KH310+KH750+MA1 at the same time.

I’m in a fairly small mixing room, which is treated to the point where i’m familiar with it but things like Sonarworks can be quite helpful and I really like the idea of calibrating using the Neumann MA1. This would make switching between monitors much easier as I wouldn’t have to thing about bypassing SW. I am however drawn to the KH310s due to the 3 way design and the sealed cabinet design (which I’ve always found to be easier to understand than ported speakers)

The other option is leaving Neumann altogether and going for used Proac 100s or Spiral Grooves and a decent Amp although i’m not sure the frequency balance would extend quite as low with these options.

Any feedback would be great.

Cheers

Iwan
Old 28th March 2021 | Show parent
  #163
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🎧 5 years
Proac against neumann? Crazy idea.
I knew very well the proac d28. Against an old o300, this proac don't justify his price.
Old 29th March 2021 | Show parent
  #164
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🎧 10 years
I don’t know the D28 but with the right amp the ProAc studio 100 “sings”. I also liked PMC TwoTwo6 when i used them a few years ago. The problem with them is they are very, very expensive even second hand
Old 30th March 2021 | Show parent
  #165
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recall ➡️
I’ve been using Neumann Kh120s for around 9 years and have been thinking of improving the setup. I feel I’m lacking a bit of resolution across the frequency range so i’m looking at possible upgrades.

First of all I like the Neumann’s in conjunction with Sonarworks and my mono mixcube and VSX so I was naturally looking at moving up to a pair of KH310s. However I’ve just seen the KH750 and MA1 combination has just been released. Would pairing the sub to the KH120s be a system on a par with the KH310s without the the sub? I definitely can’t afford to buy the KH310+KH750+MA1 at the same time.

I’m in a fairly small mixing room, which is treated to the point where i’m familiar with it but things like Sonarworks can be quite helpful and I really like the idea of calibrating using the Neumann MA1. This would make switching between monitors much easier as I wouldn’t have to thing about bypassing SW. I am however drawn to the KH310s due to the 3 way design and the sealed cabinet design (which I’ve always found to be easier to understand than ported speakers)

The other option is leaving Neumann altogether and going for used Proac 100s or Spiral Grooves and a decent Amp although i’m not sure the frequency balance would extend quite as low with these options.

Any feedback would be great.

Cheers

Iwan

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaschaP ➡️
Is anyone here fully set up on a KH80 / 750 system using the MA1 calibration? If so what has your experience been like?

My current set up is Focal Solo 6’s with Sonarworks. I’ve been thinking about moving to 3 way speakers and this looks like a potential alternative. I have worked with subs in the past and always felt like the bass was disconnected from the whole sound, but maybe in this new world of DSP / frequency / phase correction I will like it better?

It looks like you can buy a KH80/750/MA1 package new for $2650, which would be a steal in the world of even mid range 3 way monitors. Not to mention you get, in theory, better correction than what sonarworks can offer.

Any input is appreciated.


I moved from Solo 6 to KH120 in 2015 and used them right up until this year. I mix mostly dance and pop with the occasional R&B/hip-hop project thrown in

2 years ago, I got the KH805 to add low end extension, and Neumann top + sub honestly was an excellent system. We just built our new control room here which has been a lot of change in how we perceive music.

Our friend was kind enough to lend us his ATC SCM25 to test against our KH120+805 combo and the system more than held its own against something that runs several times the price of what we had.

I was able to hear more frequency detail in the combined KH120 + KH805 system but the SCM25 won on stereo image (being able to hear where the different sounds are placed in the mix spatially). This is when I realized I needed a three way monitor in my control room.

In January, I picked up the KH310 and sold my KH805 sub, and ordered the new KH750 and the MA1. I've been happy ever since. The only thing I might do is get a more hi-fi sounding hype speaker (Focal, ATC, PMC, Barefoot) for contrast/wow factor.

In your situation, I'd advise going straight for the 310s. The 750 + MA1 is a nice upgrade, but the 310s are excellent monitors, and will give you more spatial info than the KH120, and will help you build better mixes faster. There is a reason it costs more. If you have the right room, do that first. That's gonna be your most expensive buy. The 750+MA1 is an easy add-on when you find the funds.


On another note, my business partner purchased a pair of the KH80s over the summer which was when I started digging a little more into Neumann's new DSP tech. I was so impressed with the little speakers that I bought a pair for myself as a B-room/travel set. They put out a nice little bit of bass for their size, a tad less than the 120, but have impeccable high end detail. Really useful for hearing reverb tails and all the other things we overlook on lesser monitors. Before I got the 310s, I used them on top of my KH805 sub. Unfortunately, my control room is very treated and they don't push the amount of air I would like in there.

I've used the KH80 and KH310 together, next to each other. At first, without the DSP correction on the 750 sub, they had distinct characteristics, but after the MA-1 calibration, there's no point keeping them next to each other in the same room. The correction does a real good job of improving the high detail on the 310 (which is already a great monitor). That being said, I actually think the KH80 has the edge here slightly (HF detail), because of the newer tech (digital crossover/DSP voodoo), but it's not enough to compensate for the lack of high SPL and spatial image detail I need in my main control room.

On Sonarworks.... I've used it, still have it sitting in my drawer, but I felt there was this weird tizzy digital thing going on that made me feel like there was correction going on (sounded unnatural). I don't get this feeling with the MA-1



Hope this helps!
Old 30th March 2021 | Show parent
  #166
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitechocolate ➡️
I moved from Solo 6 to KH120 in 2015 and used them right up until this year. I mix mostly dance and pop with the occasional R&B/hip-hop project thrown in

2 years ago, I got the KH805 to add low end extension, and Neumann top + sub honestly was an excellent system. We just built our new control room here which has been a lot of change in how we perceive music.

Our friend was kind enough to lend us his ATC SCM25 to test against our KH120+805 combo and the system more than held its own against something that runs several times the price of what we had.

I was able to hear more frequency detail in the combined KH120 + KH805 system but the SCM25 won on stereo image (being able to hear where the different sounds are placed in the mix spatially). This is when I realized I needed a three way monitor in my control room.

In January, I picked up the KH310 and sold my KH805 sub, and ordered the new KH750 and the MA1. I've been happy ever since. The only thing I might do is get a more hi-fi sounding hype speaker (Focal, ATC, PMC, Barefoot) for contrast/wow factor.

In your situation, I'd advise going straight for the 310s. The 750 + MA1 is a nice upgrade, but the 310s are excellent monitors, and will give you more spatial info than the KH120, and will help you build better mixes faster. There is a reason it costs more. If you have the right room, do that first. That's gonna be your most expensive buy. The 750+MA1 is an easy add-on when you find the funds.

Hope this helps!
I really appreciate your input. This is literally why I’m still a member here...

I was looking at the kh80’s instead of the 120/310 because of their DSP capabilities. I figured if I’m going to go down the DSP road I might as well go all the way.

I fully understand your take on buying the 310’s and upgrading the rest later but the price difference is substantial, and a bit out of my budget. You can buy the80/750/MA1 package for the price of 1 310... I do like that the whole system would be sealed though.

Would you move from the solos to a 80/750 if you had to choose between the 2? I’m also curious about your experience in regard to the sub woofer feeling disconnected from the speakers. I imagine with the 310’s, even with a high pass at 80hz, it still feels like a full range speaker with added bass from the sub. My concern is that the 80’s will feel like a clock radio up top with bass on the floor.
Old 30th March 2021 | Show parent
  #167
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaschaP ➡️
(...) I imagine with the 310’s, even with a high pass at 80hz, it still feels like a full range speaker with added bass from the sub. My concern is that the 80’s will feel like a clock radio up top with bass on the floor.
not sure about the dsp's options/limitatons but one does not necessarily need to use symmetrical x-overs/identical slopes and frequency points to split lf and mf/hf - there can be benefits of a relatively large overlap (or even gap) between tops and sub(s)...

...but yeah, with a hpf set high enough, any mf/hf speaker starts sounding like being very small.
Old 1st April 2021 | Show parent
  #168
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaschaP ➡️
I really appreciate your input. This is literally why I’m still a member here...

I was looking at the kh80’s instead of the 120/310 because of their DSP capabilities. I figured if I’m going to go down the DSP road I might as well go all the way.

I fully understand your take on buying the 310’s and upgrading the rest later but the price difference is substantial, and a bit out of my budget. You can buy the80/750/MA1 package for the price of 1 310... I do like that the whole system would be sealed though.

Would you move from the solos to a 80/750 if you had to choose between the 2? I’m also curious about your experience in regard to the sub woofer feeling disconnected from the speakers. I imagine with the 310’s, even with a high pass at 80hz, it still feels like a full range speaker with added bass from the sub. My concern is that the 80’s will feel like a clock radio up top with bass on the floor.
Definitely do not regret moving from the Solos. I found they always played translation tricks on me. I feel like with Focal, you have to spend at least Trio 6 money to get the kind of results I want.

While I've never used the 80s and 750s together, I will say that the 80 pushes a fair amount of air on its own. Unless your room is super treated, I can't imagine it being an issue.

Just out of curiosity, what's your room size/treatment like/what kind of music are you working on?
Old 1st April 2021 | Show parent
  #169
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🎧 10 years
[QUOTE=whitechocolate;15383097

Just out of curiosity, what's your room size/treatment like/what kind of music are you working on?[/QUOTE]

This is my home studio so the treatment is minimal and the listening position is not optimal. My room is about 16 x 12, so not huge but not a tiny box either. I’ve never had translation issues I’m just looking for a new sound. For reference I also own a pair of Focal CMS65 and a pair of PMC AML1s. Everything is played through a Grace Design m905.

I do 90% audio post work these days, sound design, music supervision, dialogue editing etc. I am however starting to go back and remix a couple of albums I produced a while back and I just wanted to try something different.

Having a subwoofer wouldn’t hurt some of my post gigs either...
Old 3rd April 2021 | Show parent
  #170
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaschaP ➡️
This is my home studio so the treatment is minimal and the listening position is not optimal. My room is about 16 x 12, so not huge but not a tiny box either. I’ve never had translation issues I’m just looking for a new sound. For reference I also own a pair of Focal CMS65 and a pair of PMC AML1s. Everything is played through a Grace Design m905.

I do 90% audio post work these days, sound design, music supervision, dialogue editing etc. I am however starting to go back and remix a couple of albums I produced a while back and I just wanted to try something different.

Having a subwoofer wouldn’t hurt some of my post gigs either...
Well in that case, definitely get the 80s. I require lots of SPL for my work so the 310s are it , but for high detail I'd go KH80 by a hair. Add the 750 and you should be in heaven.

You may want to sell your CMS65 after this!
Old 3rd April 2021 | Show parent
  #171
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaschaP ➡️
This is my home studio so the treatment is minimal and the listening position is not optimal. My room is about 16 x 12, so not huge but not a tiny box either. I’ve never had translation issues I’m just looking for a new sound. For reference I also own a pair of Focal CMS65 and a pair of PMC AML1s. Everything is played through a Grace Design m905.

I do 90% audio post work these days, sound design, music supervision, dialogue editing etc. I am however starting to go back and remix a couple of albums I produced a while back and I just wanted to try something different.

Having a subwoofer wouldn’t hurt some of my post gigs either...
Well in that case, definitely get the 80s. I require lots of SPL for my work so the 310s are it , but for high detail I'd go KH80 by a hair. Add the 750 and you should be in heaven.

You may want to sell your CMS65 after this!
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #172
This thread is really making me consider the 750 for my 310's. My mix room is pretty big - 19'x21', with 9ft vaulted ceilings (treated well tho.) I love the 310's and historically I've never really liked mixing with subs, but there are times I wish I could have a little bit of a clearer image of the subs, especially when clients are here to play back. This Neumann combo seems to be really working for a lot of people.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #173
Gear Head
 
I picked up KH120s and the KH750 + MA1 system earlier this year. I upgraded from KRKs, so this was a huge improvement. I love the DSP implementation.

I just started using the digital BNC input of the KH750 and thought I would share my setup. My interface is an Apogee Element 46, which only has two analog outs. I've been wanting to free those up for track processing and use the optical out for monitoring. I was able to do this by getting a used TC-Electronic BMC-2 (~$200-250). I connect the optical out of the Element to the tos link in on the BMC-2. Then I connect the SPDIF out on the BMC-2 to the BNC in of the KH750 using a 75 ohm RCA to BNC cable. Note- the SPDIF out on the BMC-2 actually puts out AES3-id. The setup works great and the BMC-2 has some really great features for monitor control.

The downside (for Macs) is that you will lose the ability to use the Element's headphone outs system wide. This is because you need to change your outs in Audio Midi Setup to optical outs and there is no mirroring option for the headphone outs. The BMC-2 has its own headphone out (which I connected to a 4 channel headphone amp), so you will need to use that. You can still use the Element's headphone outs in Logic by turning on mirroring in I/O preferences.

Link for the RCA to BNC cable that I used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Old 3 days ago
  #174
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9 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
mmh I'm thinking of gettting the kh750 to improve the low end extension of my kh120 speakers, do you think it's worth it combined with the ma1 mic? I could easily spend similar amount of money on bass traps instead and a measurement mic that's cheaper than the ma1.
Old 9 hours ago
  #175
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SteelyDani's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Some months ago I bought a pair of KH 80s for my home desktop PC. Using REW and the Neumann. Control App I performed a meticulous manual alignment and remain very satisfied.

Yesterday a new KH 750 subwoofer finally arrived.

This time I made use of the MA 1 software to get the KH 80 + KH 750 alignment automatically. The procedure is very simple and the result is satisfactory.

However, it is worth mentioning that this software is in a very early stage. Once the alignment is done, a series of problems appear:

After the alignment process, the MA 1 software stores the correction data in the monitors or in the subwoofer; not in the software application. The data stored in the loudspeaker (s) cannot be recalled or changed once the software is closed. The calibration procedure must be started from the beginning and repeated.

This means that no further adjustment can be made without starting from scratch. On the other hand, the DIM level, the standby time or the level that takes the monitors out of standby cannot be modified either. To do this, you would have to use the Neumann.Control App, which means that all the data stored in the speakers would be erased. The solution would be to make all of these adjustments before performing the automatic alignment with MA 1.

However, the MA 1 instructions say verbatim:

Using the Neumann Control app before, while or after using the MA1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment app may cause invalid alignment results To be certain that the alignment is and stays correct please:

Uninstall the Neumann Control app from your iPad
Perform a factory reset on your Neumann DSP devices.


In short: there is no good solution.

On the other hand, when the speakers are aligned in Network mode and the DSP functionallity is being used, the blackplate manual controls as Gain or Output Level do not work, which means, for example, that the speakers level cannot be adjusted at all. If there is any imbalance between the left and right speakers, it cannot be corrected. In my particular case, I have a higher sensitivity (+0.8 dB) in the left ear than in the right and I cannot compensate for it. These adjustments could be made with the Neumann.Control App, but the result is that the alignment data achieved with the MA 1 would be completely erased. Again, there is no solution.

Nor can the subwoofer be turned off so that the sound could be analyzed without it. This could be done with the Neumann. Control App.

My feelings are bittersweet. The concept of the MA 1 is very good, but as I have already indicated this software is in a very early stage. I don't really understand how Neumann sells it, even though it clearly indicates its limitations on its website.

Hope they release an update soon.
Old 3 hours ago
  #176
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🎧 5 years
^ very good assessment and tbh this is what’s got me holding off. I’m not scared of apps, or DSP if they are thought through, future proofed, and there is a commitment to maintain them.

So far I haven’t seen any of that.

To be fair to Neuman. It’s hard, and expensive. It may take a while for them to work out the kinks - totally understandable. It’s also totally understandable to not want to buy in to this system until they get themselves sorted.
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