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Serban Ghenea Mixes - all ITB?
Old 22nd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5011
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thepulse101 ➡️
Do you guys ever think you'll do mix with masters or something? I understand it must be hard squeeze it in when you're mixing such great music all the time...
probably not. Scheduling aside, I think neither of us is really into that kind of attention. (ask again when I'm not busy and close to retirement!).
Old 22nd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5012
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
probably not. Scheduling aside, I think neither of us is really into that kind of attention. (ask again when I'm not busy and close to retirement!).
You might have to set aside six months or so then. I believe we'd be quite a few people there.
Old 22nd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5013
Gear Nut
 
Greg Dubuis's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
probably not. Scheduling aside, I think neither of us is really into that kind of attention. (ask again when I'm not busy and close to retirement!).
Best reply to this question (already asked couple of time) !
You're funny guy ;-) and you teach a lot of people trough this thread.
Once again, thank you for your time !
Old 23rd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5014
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
probably not. Scheduling aside, I think neither of us is really into that kind of attention. (ask again when I'm not busy and close to retirement!).
How many years before retirement?
Old 23rd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5015
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
My concern about thriller 40! @ TheHanes Bruce swedien is said to be an enemy of compression but his drums are snappier. Either the multitrack you got is different or the phase addition is making the drums passive. Your version is clearer but for the first time your musicality became 2nd place for me. Or maybe the atmos render is reducing the impact. We Want Stereo!
Old 23rd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5016
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by akashpmp ➡️
My concern about thriller 40! @ TheHanes Bruce swedien is said to be an enemy of compression but his drums are snappier.
You are of course entitled to your taste!

Quote:
Originally Posted by akashpmp ➡️
Either the multitrack you got is different or the phase addition is making the drums passive.
Why would the multitrack be "different"? John already explained what they received and how they worked.

"phase addition is making the drums passive" makes no sense.

Maybe you just don't like the mixes? that's fine too, but trying to explain to a professional you don't know what happened with their mixes is somewhat rude.

Quote:
Your version is clearer but for the first time your musicality became 2nd place for me. Or maybe the atmos render is reducing the impact. We Want Stereo!
Already answered and denied
Old 23rd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5017
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Hopefully it will make sense for my idols. I don't want them to get defeated even in front of immortals. I am their best fan. Just want them to make sure about each release. Love them♥️
Old 23rd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5018
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupiraille ➡️
How many years before retirement?
Well I'd like to get at least 10 more!
Old 23rd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5019
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by akashpmp ➡️
My concern about thriller 40! @ TheHanes Bruce swedien is said to be an enemy of compression but his drums are snappier. Either the multitrack you got is different or the phase addition is making the drums passive. Your version is clearer but for the first time your musicality became 2nd place for me. Or maybe the atmos render is reducing the impact. We Want Stereo!
He was also a tremendous advocate of tape compression and his stereo mixes would have been recorded to tape, then on to mastering (for vinyl no less).

He himself worried about tape generation losses; the tape transfers done for us having stereo mixes of drums from his 24track mix downs (as he used for his own mixes).

We can never try to compete with Bruce for aesthetic, but merely try to honor his brilliance and do what we can to bring it into a new world and also help to preserve it by giving a reason for it to be digitized and celebrated again.

Each medium will have its own listener preferences; vinyl, CD, Cassette, 25 anniversary, MFSL remasters, 40th anniversary, 5.1, Atmos, 360RA.

I'd bet an original pressing on vinyl with a great playback system sounds out of this world! We humbly try to bring it to a new generation of music lovers in their current listening medium.

"What you do is every time you do the best you can and life will take care of you." - Bruce Swedien.
Old 24th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5020
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Perfect example of manhood..what a gentleman ♥️♥️🔥👏👏
Old 24th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5021
Gear Head
 
Gain matching

Hi again @ TheHanes . Another question that popped up in my head that's been bugging me a bit. It's regarding gain matching whenever you do something, like boosting/cutting on an eq or using a compressor, etc.

I always try to gain match everything, but it sometimes seems like it's not really what I'm after. I kind of like getting the volume boost from the eq, comp, etc. Not always, but a lot of times.

So.... my question is: Do you and Serban pay a lot of attention to that? Do you constantly match the level or do you just go by feel?

As always: Others are more than welcome to share their own workflows/thoughts!
Old 24th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5022
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DK4700 ➡️
Hi again @ TheHanes . Another question that popped up in my head that's been bugging me a bit. It's regarding gain matching whenever you do something, like boosting/cutting on an eq or using a compressor, etc.

I always try to gain match everything, but it sometimes seems like it's not really what I'm after. I kind of like getting the volume boost from the eq, comp, etc. Not always, but a lot of times.

So.... my question is: Do you and Serban pay a lot of attention to that? Do you constantly match the level or do you just go by feel?

As always: Others are more than welcome to share their own workflows/thoughts!
(disclaimer: I am not one of the "big" guys)

With compression I always gain match, or rather I do it automatically. I actually build myself a little custom rack in Bitwig that moves threshold, ratio and output gain at the same time so when I push the compressor, the result is the same level and I can easily hear the effect of the compression (how the compression actually sounds)

However, if a sound needs more volume stability, I will push the signal into a compressor, have anywhere between -3 to -12ish, and re-dial a bit the track volume to glue with the rest of the mix

With EQ, when I bring in a sound (by adjusting the track volume) and some area will be loud enough, I assess: let's say the midrange is loud enough but the sound is missing high mids and/or high end - in this case I will not gain match the eq boost (because I want to level up the sound in the mix).

Sometimes (depending on the type of sound and how high in the scale is played I suppose) I mix until the high mids are where I want them to be, then find the low midrange too loud and start eq cutting but again, no volume adjustment

I may be missing something, but I almost never volume match the eq although I know people from the console days swearing that a proper eq move is with two hands: one on the eq gain knob and one on the volume fader.

Me as well looking forward to read other thoughts
Old 24th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5023
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DK4700 ➡️
Hi again @ TheHanes . Another question that popped up in my head that's been bugging me a bit. It's regarding gain matching whenever you do something, like boosting/cutting on an eq or using a compressor, etc.

I always try to gain match everything, but it sometimes seems like it's not really what I'm after. I kind of like getting the volume boost from the eq, comp, etc. Not always, but a lot of times.

So.... my question is: Do you and Serban pay a lot of attention to that? Do you constantly match the level or do you just go by feel?

As always: Others are more than welcome to share their own workflows/thoughts!
I'd be very interested in John's thoughts on this question, too.

I've started to gain-compensate every process recently (EQ, compression, saturation, everything), for the following reasons:
  1. I want to judge the effect of the process, not the effect of the loudness change it might create.
  2. I want to be able to easily A/B-test the signal with and without the process by turning the plugin on and off (or even turning all plugins on that track on and off).
  3. If I turn off a process, I don't want a possible loudness change to affect downstream processing.

The downside of this is that manual gain compensation is a bit annoying and also can be a bit of a flow killer. Making an EQ move is often quick, but performing the manual gain compensation is not, at least not if you want to get it half-way right. I wish all plugins came with decent automatic gain compensation.

I feel I have a bit more transparency over the results of my processing now, but still on the fence on whether it's worth the extra effort.
Old 25th November 2022
  #5024
Lives for gear
 
Glamdring's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I level match everything - it’s the only way to A/B quickly with the source and know if you’ve improved it or not.

Level matching is something you can get really fast at if you practice - I don’t even think about it anymore, it just happens…
Old 25th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5025
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DK4700 ➡️
Hi again @ TheHanes . Another question that popped up in my head that's been bugging me a bit. It's regarding gain matching whenever you do something, like boosting/cutting on an eq or using a compressor, etc.

I always try to gain match everything, but it sometimes seems like it's not really what I'm after. I kind of like getting the volume boost from the eq, comp, etc. Not always, but a lot of times.

So.... my question is: Do you and Serban pay a lot of attention to that? Do you constantly match the level or do you just go by feel?

As always: Others are more than welcome to share their own workflows/thoughts!
Not an a-list mixer obviously, but in my mind it starts before the processing is even applied.

Do you want to compress the snare to push it a bit further away? Don't level match, otherwise the peaks will probably be higher and the original purpose of pushing it behind will not be accomplished.

Do you want to compress a lead vocal to bring out some low-level detail? The makeup gain will be crucial to determine how much you will emphasize that.

With EQ is a bit trickier. From my previous experiences, sometimes you can actually be a little bit heavier with your cuts and boosts if you level match. But no rules!
Old 25th November 2022
  #5026
Here for the gear
 
Hey john!

was there any thing among the multitracks in thriller that you got that you didnt notice before ?( like hidden flutes haha)

the lady in my life is one of my favorite songs of all time how was hearing all the instrumentation? i imagine it was one of those moments where you feel your self just stopping and being truly amazed by the music! I can only imagine

thanks!
Old 25th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5027
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro Rafael ➡️
Do you want to compress the snare to push it a bit further away? Don't level match, otherwise the peaks will probably be higher and the original purpose of pushing it behind will not be accomplished.

Do you want to compress a lead vocal to bring out some low-level detail? The makeup gain will be crucial to determine how much you will emphasize that.
IMHO the advantage of level matching is independent of what you're trying to achieve. Deliberate volume changes should happen on the channel fader, not as a side effect of the EQ or compression processing. So instead of not level matching in the cases you suggest above, you can also level match in the plugin and make the inverse change on the channel fader. This way the outcome is the same as without level matching, but you can A/B-test the effect of the processing.
Old 25th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5028
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
I don’t hear any and Logic doesn’t show any. I’m up against dance tracks that get yet another .5db - .8db LUFS so I’m still a little short compared to the final masters of, say, Camelphat or ARTBAT. If i push anymore the mix breaks though, where it sounds legit right here. I’ll back off for a final master but need my own mix to be competitive to these masters if DJs are going to be excited to play them the moment I send them, so I’ll leave it at zero to give myself every advantage.

I’m just surprised I’m hitting -6LUFS with that little reduction. I was having to reduce -5db to get to -7LUFS just recently.

The word “density” that John has used has resonated with me. That’s where the ability to hit LUFS actually seems to come from. So I’ve been paying attention to creating the correct density throughout the mix.

On the master strip, the compressors are handling the density (normal compression, OTT, and multiband), then I have another limiter bringing it up to around zero, without affecting most of the track and taking less than .5 off the loudest moment, and then this one reducing to -3db.

Signed two tracks to a noteworthy dance label this week. And this one is even better, the first I feel is really “there” at a level I’ve never hit. Really excited going forward.
Is that normal for major releases? To get that John Hanes/Serban sound I see that they get to -6 LUFS but is at actual -6 or -6.9? 🤔 and somewhere I read that the ceiling is typically set to -5 so is 0 really okay to do? Haha I need my releases a tad louder
Old 25th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5029
Lives for gear
 
Chevron's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKhanDaDon ➡️
Is that normal for major releases? To get that John Hanes/Serban sound I see that they get to -6 LUFS but is at actual -6 or -6.9? 🤔 and somewhere I read that the ceiling is typically set to -5 so is 0 really okay to do? Haha I need my releases a tad louder
Just curious, why do you need your releases louder? With streaming normalisation, I think loud masters are most definitely not as needed as they once were.

I have found focusing on perceived volume, density, energy, presence or whatever you want to call it in the mix with intricate balancing and EQ is one of the best skills you can develop as a mix engineer or producer. No fancy plugins or exact level targets just applied skill.
Old 25th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5030
Deleted 27b07ea
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKhanDaDon ➡️
Is that normal for major releases? To get that John Hanes/Serban sound I see that they get to -6 LUFS but is at actual -6 or -6.9? and somewhere I read that the ceiling is typically set to -5 so is 0 really okay to do? Haha I need my releases a tad louder
Sustaining around -6LUFS for the loudest section seems pretty standard in pop, with some variance. A lot push further, some examples of Serban's mixes sustaining around -5.0 for the loudest section on some releases. You can check any release yourself, just use a LUFS meter in the DAW.

I'm finding sending out demos I'm good with a sustained -8LUFS for the most part, with the loudest moments maybe crossing a bit into the -6.whatever or maybe staying below -7.

Labels/artists who release louder records don't seem to hear the difference when sorting through demos, though the final masters I get back tend to beef things up to a sustained -6 at the loudest sections, sometimes crossing into -5.x.

So I'm not sweating those extra dBs anymore, the cost/benefit of the time sink isn't worth it, I end up spending 3 times as long fighting for those extra couple of dB as I do doing everything else, and its just not necessary to getting stuff picked up.
Old 25th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5031
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
Sustaining around -6LUFS for the loudest section seems pretty standard in pop, with some variance. A lot push further, some examples of Serban's mixes sustaining around -5.0 for the loudest section on some releases. You can check any release yourself, just use a LUFS meter in the DAW.

I'm finding sending out demos I'm good with a sustained -8LUFS for the most part, with the loudest moments maybe crossing a bit into the -6.whatever or maybe staying below -7.

Labels/artists who release louder records don't seem to hear the difference when sorting through demos, though the final masters I get back tend to beef things up to a sustained -6 at the loudest sections, sometimes crossing into -5.x.

So I'm not sweating those extra dBs anymore, the cost/benefit of the time sink isn't worth it, I end up spending 3 times as long fighting for those extra couple of dB as I do doing everything else, and its just not necessary to getting stuff picked up.
I sometimes think of all the music I could do in those hours I waste chasing those extra elusive LUFS...

Would actually like to hear @ TheHanes input on this. What LUFS do the demo mixes you recieve usually measure?

Last edited by DK4700; 25th November 2022 at 09:21 PM.. Reason: Added question.
Old 28th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5032
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexe ➡️
I'd be very interested in John's thoughts on this question, too.

I've started to gain-compensate every process recently (EQ, compression, saturation, everything), for the following reasons:
  1. I want to judge the effect of the process, not the effect of the loudness change it might create.
  2. I want to be able to easily A/B-test the signal with and without the process by turning the plugin on and off (or even turning all plugins on that track on and off).
  3. If I turn off a process, I don't want a possible loudness change to affect downstream processing.

The downside of this is that manual gain compensation is a bit annoying and also can be a bit of a flow killer. Making an EQ move is often quick, but performing the manual gain compensation is not, at least not if you want to get it half-way right. I wish all plugins came with decent automatic gain compensation.

I feel I have a bit more transparency over the results of my processing now, but still on the fence on whether it's worth the extra effort.
Depends on the situation;

1) I do not level match when initially mixing things. Applying EQ, compression, etc. I will turn down volume (or up) to taste, but not sciencing the levels.

2) After I've sent out a mix and received back comments, I might level match based on a specific mix tweak request; i.e. "Make the BGV brighter, but I like where the level sits". or "the snare should hit harder" might mean more compression or saturation, but then level match it back to where it sounds right in the mix.

3) I will do level match for your #3 above; if I want to try a significant process change but have the instrument sit in the same place in the mix.

So not every time; but as needed for situational awareness.
Old 28th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5033
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DK4700 ➡️
I sometimes think of all the music I could do in those hours I waste chasing those extra elusive LUFS...

Would actually like to hear @ TheHanes input on this. What LUFS do the demo mixes you recieve usually measure?
I'll watch it on my DK meter and try to keep my mix between -8 and -6. If it kicks up to -4, I'll look at what is getting it up that high and decide if I like it there. Maybe this song likes a smashed chorus, but maybe it needs some taming there.

I do try to level match to the rough mix if it is a loud one and figure out where I can keep it loud but improve the dynamics and levels. If the rough mix is sustained at -4 area, I'll drop it down and level match it lower, say at -6.

Rough mixes come anywhere from below -8 to -4.

Often it is not how loud it is, but why it is so loud. I can correct problem areas but keep it pretty loud if that is the desired effect. I'm not measuring overall LUFS on rough mixes, but looking at meters and where my volume is when I do level match it.
Old 28th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5034
Moderator
 
Oroz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
I'll watch it on my DK meter and try to keep my mix between -8 and -6. If it kicks up to -4, I'll look at what is getting it up that high and decide if I like it there. Maybe this song likes a smashed chorus, but maybe it needs some taming there.

I do try to level match to the rough mix if it is a loud one and figure out where I can keep it loud but improve the dynamics and levels. If the rough mix is sustained at -4 area, I'll drop it down and level match it lower, say at -6.

Rough mixes come anywhere from below -8 to -4.

Often it is not how loud it is, but why it is so loud. I can correct problem areas but keep it pretty loud if that is the desired effect. I'm not measuring overall LUFS on rough mixes, but looking at meters and where my volume is when I do level match it.
Hi John, do you check integrated LUFS too? Or is it short term?

Thanks!
Old 28th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5035
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
@ TheHanes , maybe a massive question. Any noteworthy or interesting lessons you learned from working on the Thriller project? Were there any specific challenges in re-creating the Swedien mixes?
Old 29th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5036
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroz ➡️
Hi John, do you check integrated LUFS too? Or is it short term?

Thanks!
When mixing stereo I’m just looking at short term.
Old 29th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5037
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Hi John
I saw you have a pair of Bose Companion and Serban has Bose Music Monitor. Do you guys use them? Just as a reference or something (check the lows, volumes). I've also had a pair of Music Monitors for 6-7 years and I really like how they sound, leaving aside the fact that for their size they sound really impressive, I'm curious about your opinion and Serban's.
Old 30th November 2022
  #5038
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
@ TheHanes .. Hey John!

Question! How’s your experience with Pro Tools stability been lately? Considering what you’ve shared about working from clients’ sessions, I’m assuming you have to stay relatively current with PT updates.

Are you dealing with any ongoing weirdness/bugs/crashes or are things pretty stable? I think I’ve done about as much as I can to keep my work machine as tidy and spartan as I can but feel like I’m crashing/beach balling until I have to force quit several times a day. Between the lost moves even a 2 minute auto backup can’t save and the annoyance, I’m losing it

Any insight on getting your machines to be as headache-free is possible? Thanks!
Old 30th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5039
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertine ➡️
@ TheHanes .. Hey John!

Question! How’s your experience with Pro Tools stability been lately? Considering what you’ve shared about working from clients’ sessions, I’m assuming you have to stay relatively current with PT updates.

Are you dealing with any ongoing weirdness/bugs/crashes or are things pretty stable? I think I’ve done about as much as I can to keep my work machine as tidy and spartan as I can but feel like I’m crashing/beach balling until I have to force quit several times a day. Between the lost moves even a 2 minute auto backup can’t save and the annoyance, I’m losing it ������

Any insight on getting your machines to be as headache-free is possible? Thanks!
That is unusual. I'm pushing a 2017 macbook pro quite hard - I personally get the occasional crash, and yes I have a lot of plugins too - but regular crashes mean almost certainly there's a plugin not playing nice, or something else going on hardware-wise.

For example - I run an OWC hub that runs most of my peripherals, but a cheaper small adaptor for the 2nd screen. If I leave a USB drive connected here (I connect my backup drive to this and turn it on and off) - PT often hangs. Turning off the drive brings it back again.

So check how and what you've got connected too!
Old 30th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5040
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
That is unusual. I'm pushing a 2017 macbook pro quite hard - I personally get the occasional crash, and yes I have a lot of plugins too - but regular crashes mean almost certainly there's a plugin not playing nice, or something else going on hardware-wise.

For example - I run an OWC hub that runs most of my peripherals, but a cheaper small adaptor for the 2nd screen. If I leave a USB drive connected here (I connect my backup drive to this and turn it on and off) - PT often hangs. Turning off the drive brings it back again.

So check how and what you've got connected too!
Also someone mentioned on twitter (they work with a video track inside PT) - they got rid of all crashes by turning off GPU acceleration feature in PT
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