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Serban Ghenea Mixes - all ITB?
Old 28th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4741
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLS ➡️
Hi John,

I had a query on the thought process regarding EQing a lead vocal. Obviously changing spectral balance of one portion will affect other areas of the spectrum as well as where you want to place a vocal in relation to the rest of the mix. I was wondering if there was any logical process to this? For example, starting from bottom-up (taking out some low/low mids) or top-down (adding some top-shelf first) or whether it was just purely instinctual as to what you might tackle first?

Would also love to hear your thoughts on any areas you commonly reach for too - thanks in advance and thanks again for sticking around on this thread
Have you seen this? https://jaxsta.com/news-article/45341

Also the thread talks alot about vocals, should read it entirely if you didn't already (you can filter just John's replies although I'd go over everything)
Old 28th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4742
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
I think good points by @ Mike Caffrey already.

You could consider reworking the Mix Buss so that it is not doing so much of the heavy lifting of the mix; this will reduce the variability of it. It sounds like a lot of your kick drum sound is actually from the Mix Bus dynamics, try to find a way to get that same sound on just the kick track.

This will also make it easier to listen to things solo'ed because they will sit closer to where they are in the mix, easier to make accurate stems, etc.

If you are not happy with the results of that, then certainly automation is a fix; but overall I think that you will be a better mixer overall if you can get the sounds you want without crushing the mix buss.
I spent the entire time these days trying to find potential solutions to this, first was to enter the mixbus with a lower level (so the kick is passing through completely untouched, right under kissing the limiter, same for the subs)

Then I watched on the multiband what elements from the mix are starting to trigger the bands and eq/dynamics them until
they trigger nothing or as less as possible. (I make dance music, the total track count is around 30 including all the auxes).

Now this mix is loud and clear, hitting -8 LUFS with the limiter doing basically nothing, multiband doing some 1 dB of GR at most, and the bus comp same, 1 dB of GR. I do have a soft clipper doing 0.5 dB of soft clipping before the limiter though.

I could push the mix with no issues in -6 (even more) although I won't do it because I'm not a fan but I find myself having doubts about this whole thing: can it really sound good with so less mixbus processing?

My experience so far was that I'm objectively getting better. I also gave up using submix bus processing (if I group instruments or something else, I do it just to pack them into a folder for convenience but there will be no processing on the group), which actually improved my mixes significantly. More attention to individual elements should also improve things but somehow I am doubting myself, doubting what I hear just because the process became too simple
Old 28th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4743
TLS
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sircuit ➡️
Have you seen this? https://jaxsta.com/news-article/45341

Also the thread talks alot about vocals, should read it entirely if you didn't already (you can filter just John's replies although I'd go over everything)
Thanks. I had seen that as well as read the thread however I was interested in the thought process if there was one as that could change how one balances things and thinks about placement.
Old 28th September 2022
  #4744
Moderator
 
Oroz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Pro Tools Aux I/O

I was waiting for the new Pro Tools version because of Melodyne ARA but the Aux I/O looks great. I think that I’ll be able to compare my atmos mixes with the stereo mix easily now (and in a more correct way via our m908 monitor controller).

I’m also wondering if I could use the Dolby Atmos Renderer in the same computer now with this routing options.

Old 29th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4745
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sircuit ➡️
I spent the entire time these days trying to find potential solutions to this, first was to enter the mixbus with a lower level (so the kick is passing through completely untouched, right under kissing the limiter, same for the subs)

Then I watched on the multiband what elements from the mix are starting to trigger the bands and eq/dynamics them until
they trigger nothing or as less as possible. (I make dance music, the total track count is around 30 including all the auxes).

Now this mix is loud and clear, hitting -8 LUFS with the limiter doing basically nothing, multiband doing some 1 dB of GR at most, and the bus comp same, 1 dB of GR. I do have a soft clipper doing 0.5 dB of soft clipping before the limiter though.

I could push the mix with no issues in -6 (even more) although I won't do it because I'm not a fan but I find myself having doubts about this whole thing: can it really sound good with so less mixbus processing?

My experience so far was that I'm objectively getting better. I also gave up using submix bus processing (if I group instruments or something else, I do it just to pack them into a folder for convenience but there will be no processing on the group), which actually improved my mixes significantly. More attention to individual elements should also improve things but somehow I am doubting myself, doubting what I hear just because the process became too simple
Now you understand the saying "A lot of compressors, not a lot of compression."

I can't stand when people say "I use X dB of compression" because they have no idea how many dB of compression they're using. Compressors don't have compression meters, they have gain reduction meters.

Which track is being compressed more, the one where the compressor's meter shows 10dB or the one where the compressor's meter is showing 3dB?

The answer is, you have no idea. In my hypothetical scenario I left out that the track showing 10dB is a sine wave and the one showing 3dB is a vocal that wasn't compressed during tracking. You can't even compress a steady state tone, so the one showing 3dB has more.


So all of the people talking about "smashing" something aren't necessarily compressing heavily. Especially if they're mixing and compression happened during tracking.

We don't really like the sound of compression. The one thing someone may like is THD from driving the input which may show a lot of gain reduction but if the track has already been leveled there may not be additional compression happening.

With dance music, especially drum samples, the dynamic range is usually static. Ironically dance music, through side chaining, is often increasing the dynamic range with compression.

Compression is like toad venom. A little will make you feel good, but too much will kill you.
Old 29th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4746
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey ➡️
I can't stand when people say "I use X dB of compression" because they have no idea how many dB of compression they're using. Compressors don't have compression meters, they have gain reduction meters.
I suppose the first couple of db GR (or as many dB as the compressor can attack and release from/to zero GR for most of the time) are considered true "compression" then the occasional higher GR will be "levelling" (gain reduction but without the specific effect triggered by the transients) and then the constant GR activity is pure levelling. Also I think is fairly naive how I described it

I found my own way of dealing with this after lots of trial and error (no idea if is the most clean or optimal solution) but I needed a way to have a scenario where the compression is compensated very precise for the lost level so I can properly asses the difference, so I'm happy to report that I can properly hear 2-3 dB of GR (still have issues with 1 dB GR).

It's a bloody instrument the compressor
Old 29th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4747
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey ➡️
We don't really like the sound of compression. The one thing someone may like is THD from driving the input which may show a lot of gain reduction but if the track has already been leveled there may not be additional compression happening.
What a statement. Lol.
Old 29th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4748
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupiraille ➡️
What a statement. Lol.
Mike is totally right here. Strong compression sound almost like brickwall limiting - soft, drowned, lifeless. Strong leveling is not the same as strong compression. I can't say I ever encountered a situation where strong compression sounded the best, really (I'll rather attempt soft clipping and/or straight up volume riding at that point)
Old 29th September 2022
  #4749
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
“strong compression” is not the quote.
Actually he didn’t talk about “strong compression”, but about the difference between a “compressed sound” and a “sound going through a compressor with some gain reduction”.
But Yawn, let’s not derail this thread.

I’ve found a bit lolesque the statement “we don’t really like the sound of compression” in this thread about Serban, pop music, etc. I just wanted to highlight that it couldn’t be further false (in other contexts too, not just here).
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4750
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sircuit ➡️
I suppose the first couple of db GR (or as many dB as the compressor can attack and release from/to zero GR for most of the time) are considered true "compression" then the occasional higher GR will be "levelling" (gain reduction but without the specific effect triggered by the transients) and then the constant GR activity is pure levelling. Also I think is fairly naive how I described it

I found my own way of dealing with this after lots of trial and error (no idea if is the most clean or optimal solution) but I needed a way to have a scenario where the compression is compensated very precise for the lost level so I can properly asses the difference, so I'm happy to report that I can properly hear 2-3 dB of GR (still have issues with 1 dB GR).

It's a bloody instrument the compressor
But it's all dependent on the dynamic range of the signal.

You can't compress more than the dynamic range of the signal and most people don't have any idea what it is and they assume that high levels of GR is doing something, but it may just be the equivalent of inserting a pad and then adding makeup gain. Especially with a slow release.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4751
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sircuit ➡️
Mike is totally right here. Strong compression sound almost like brickwall limiting - soft, drowned, lifeless. Strong leveling is not the same as strong compression. I can't say I ever encountered a situation where strong compression sounded the best, really (I'll rather attempt soft clipping and/or straight up volume riding at that point)
Volume riding compresses the dynamic range.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4752
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sircuit ➡️
I spent the entire time these days trying to find potential solutions to this, first was to enter the mixbus with a lower level (so the kick is passing through completely untouched, right under kissing the limiter, same for the subs)

Then I watched on the multiband what elements from the mix are starting to trigger the bands and eq/dynamics them until
they trigger nothing or as less as possible. (I make dance music, the total track count is around 30 including all the auxes).

Now this mix is loud and clear, hitting -8 LUFS with the limiter doing basically nothing, multiband doing some 1 dB of GR at most, and the bus comp same, 1 dB of GR. I do have a soft clipper doing 0.5 dB of soft clipping before the limiter though.

I could push the mix with no issues in -6 (even more) although I won't do it because I'm not a fan but I find myself having doubts about this whole thing: can it really sound good with so less mixbus processing?

My experience so far was that I'm objectively getting better. I also gave up using submix bus processing (if I group instruments or something else, I do it just to pack them into a folder for convenience but there will be no processing on the group), which actually improved my mixes significantly. More attention to individual elements should also improve things but somehow I am doubting myself, doubting what I hear just because the process became too simple
Yes it can OFTEN sound better with minimal mix buss processing. Too much marketing towards these mix buss fix plugins and everyone thinks that is where to fix problems.

Problems need to be fixed BEFORE the mix buss, is is a polish, not a paint.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4753
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLS ➡️
Hi John,

I had a query on the thought process regarding EQing a lead vocal. Obviously changing spectral balance of one portion will affect other areas of the spectrum as well as where you want to place a vocal in relation to the rest of the mix. I was wondering if there was any logical process to this? For example, starting from bottom-up (taking out some low/low mids) or top-down (adding some top-shelf first) or whether it was just purely instinctual as to what you might tackle first?

Would also love to hear your thoughts on any areas you commonly reach for too - thanks in advance and thanks again for sticking around on this thread
I've started a reply a couple of times, but it didn't come out right.

I think that essentially what I do with vocals is start it where volume sounds right and diction sounds right (those will be broad EQ and compressor settings). I'll then just listen through as I'm working on the music and notice things that stick out, annoy me, or don't sit right.

Mixing vocals is a thing that happens the whole duration of the mix and get the most work on it, but it is not sit down and fix the vocals in a pass or two and then done. It is an ongoing process as the mix evolves.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4754
TLS
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
I've started a reply a couple of times, but it didn't come out right.

I think that essentially what I do with vocals is start it where volume sounds right and diction sounds right (those will be broad EQ and compressor settings). I'll then just listen through as I'm working on the music and notice things that stick out, annoy me, or don't sit right.

Mixing vocals is a thing that happens the whole duration of the mix and get the most work on it, but it is not sit down and fix the vocals in a pass or two and then done. It is an ongoing process as the mix evolves.
Thanks John - appreciate the reply and that makes total sense. I've got a similar process so good to know Are there any broad areas under 1k which you often find particularly problematic or a juggling act between too much and too little as the mix progresses? Thanks again.
Old 2nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #4755
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLS ➡️
Thanks John - appreciate the reply and that makes total sense. I've got a similar process so good to know Are there any broad areas under 1k which you often find particularly problematic or a juggling act between too much and too little as the mix progresses? Thanks again.
Nothing for me that crosses all artists, microphones, pre-amps, etc. that we receive. Too many variables;

i.e. : I'll often low shelf vocals around 100-170 Hz, but then sometimes That area needs a boost.
Old 3rd October 2022 | Show parent
  #4756
TLS
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
Nothing for me that crosses all artists, microphones, pre-amps, etc. that we receive. Too many variables;

i.e. : I'll often low shelf vocals around 100-170 Hz, but then sometimes That area needs a boost.
Thanks John - much appreciated
Old 3rd October 2022
  #4757
Here for the gear
 
hi john. I'm wondering if you had to leave just two plug-ins on the master bus, what type of processing would that be? (e.g. multi-band compressor + limiter or saturator + limiter?)
How much would your sound change as a result? Are two plug-ins enough to shape your tone and loudness?
Old 4th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4758
Moderator
 
Oroz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
So what I'm doing is re-creating the Stereo Mix Buss on a 7.1.2 Aux. That works for the beds which are a 7.1.2 channel bed. Anything in these beds is running through the Aux with all the Mix Buss plugins on it. Note that this means where on a stereo Mix Buss channel you will have 2 instances of each plugin (in multi mono), on the 7.1.2 bed channel there are 10 instances of each plugin (and only multi-mono compatible plugins can be used on it).
Hi John, hope you're doing great. If I may ask, are you creating just 1 Aux that it's 7.1.2 or are you creating different Stereo Aux's? If you use the first option: what do you do when there are plugins that are not 7.1.2 compatible?

Thanks in advance.
Old 5th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4759
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
Yes it can OFTEN sound better with minimal mix buss processing. Too much marketing towards these mix buss fix plugins and everyone thinks that is where to fix problems.

Problems need to be fixed BEFORE the mix buss, is is a polish, not a paint.
If I weigh the physical footprint of this polish..Does it weigh more than -infinity DBFS? Kudos to serban!
Old 5th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4760
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroz ➡️
Hi John, hope you're doing great. If I may ask, are you creating just 1 Aux that it's 7.1.2 or are you creating different Stereo Aux's? If you use the first option: what do you do when there are plugins that are not 7.1.2 compatible?

Thanks in advance.
Doing great and working on some exciting things! Thanks.

I have one Aux 7.1.2 for the beds, and one stereo aux for each object pair (I rarely use mono objects). These replace the master buss channels that would be in stereo.

For instances where there are plugins that don't work in Mono (and therefor not available on channel widths other than 2), I'll find solutions such as;

Replace the plugin with something similar that is available in mono.

create multiple stereo aux busses for different positions; i.e. If 10 tracks of BGVs going to a stereo aux buss that has non-mono plugins, I'll duplicate that buss a few times and send different parts of the BGV's to different instances of the buss, each one panned differently or sending to a 2-channel object.
Old 6th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4761
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Hey John!

I had a bit of a random question, have you ever tried out or like anything from Plugin Alliance? I was thinking of trying out a membership there, but was just curious if you had tried any of their stuff, if you thought it might be worthwhile to give it a go? Hope you're having a great day and excited to hear what you come out with next! : )
Old 7th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4762
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
Doing great and working on some exciting things! Thanks.

I have one Aux 7.1.2 for the beds, and one stereo aux for each object pair (I rarely use mono objects). These replace the master buss channels that would be in stereo.

For instances where there are plugins that don't work in Mono (and therefor not available on channel widths other than 2), I'll find solutions such as;

Replace the plugin with something similar that is available in mono.

create multiple stereo aux busses for different positions; i.e. If 10 tracks of BGVs going to a stereo aux buss that has non-mono plugins, I'll duplicate that buss a few times and send different parts of the BGV's to different instances of the buss, each one panned differently or sending to a 2-channel object.
@ TheHanes
Hi
I am interested in Genelec 8361,Kii D&D 8c Pmc 6,2
I would like to hear your opinion about them if you have heard ,especially about the 8361 us an owner, how can they be for full mixing setup?
Old 7th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4763
Gear Maniac
 
Jwitb's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
I've started a reply a couple of times, but it didn't come out right.

I think that essentially what I do with vocals is start it where volume sounds right and diction sounds right (those will be broad EQ and compressor settings). I'll then just listen through as I'm working on the music and notice things that stick out, annoy me, or don't sit right.

Mixing vocals is a thing that happens the whole duration of the mix and get the most work on it, but it is not sit down and fix the vocals in a pass or two and then done. It is an ongoing process as the mix evolves.
What a gem
Old 7th October 2022
  #4764
Here for the gear
 
Josh Gudwin's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Incredible thread!!!!
Old 7th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4765
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Gudwin ➡️
Incredible thread!!!!
Holy ish, Josh Gudwin is here! Love your work, man!
Old 7th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4766
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_mixer ➡️
Holy ish, Josh Gudwin is here! Love your work, man!
my exact reaction!
Old 7th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4767
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooleyocity ➡️
Hey John!

I had a bit of a random question, have you ever tried out or like anything from Plugin Alliance? I was thinking of trying out a membership there, but was just curious if you had tried any of their stuff, if you thought it might be worthwhile to give it a go? Hope you're having a great day and excited to hear what you come out with next! : )
We've got a bunch of stuff from plugin alliance.

I'm really pretty plugin manufacturer agnostic; we generally buy plugins because sessions come in to us with them on there, so we have an extensive collection. (I mean my AAX plugin folder is over 15GB)

So we kind of have to have them. Their service and installation process seems to be very good, but as far as audio quality, I've got no special feelings about them either way, but I'd probably say the same about most other manufacturer. They do have an extensive collection, so the subscription plans seem to give a lot of choices.

I do wish that they (and everyone else) would make it possible to turn off the analog noise feature of some of their plugins.
Old 7th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4768
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MG86 ➡️
@ TheHanes
Hi
I am interested in Genelec 8361,Kii D&D 8c Pmc 6,2
I would like to hear your opinion about them if you have heard ,especially about the 8361 us an owner, how can they be for full mixing setup?
I love my 8361's! They just happen to fit my needs really well; Freestanding, relatively small size, highly accurate, GLM tuning and control, self powered. I do have them sitting on top of the W371A "Woofer System", which takes them to another level (of price and presentation).

When I do switch off the W371A sub extension, the 8361's themselves are quite full range, I could probably fool you into thinking they were still on.

Now many people have opinions on the sound of Genelecs, so that is something you'll have to form your own opinion on; I also have been mixing more and more on them as I get used to them.

I should add that I've not heard the other speakers you mentioned.

Last edited by TheHanes; 7th October 2022 at 02:56 PM.. Reason: adding
Old 9th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4769
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
I love my 8361's! They just happen to fit my needs really well; Freestanding, relatively small size, highly accurate, GLM tuning and control, self powered. I do have them sitting on top of the W371A "Woofer System", which takes them to another level (of price and presentation).

When I do switch off the W371A sub extension, the 8361's themselves are quite full range, I could probably fool you into thinking they were still on.

Now many people have opinions on the sound of Genelecs, so that is something you'll have to form your own opinion on; I also have been mixing more and more on them as I get used to them.

I should add that I've not heard the other speakers you mentioned.
@ TheHanes
Thank you so much .
Old 9th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4770
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MG86 ➡️
@ TheHanes
Thank you so much .
@ TheHanes

I am thinking about 8361s too .
I use 8040 s many years .
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