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Comments on PT 6...
Old 11th October 2002
  #1
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Comments on PT 6...

So, after the PT HD flop (at least, that is how the Digi dealers in town over here are describing it as, since virtually no one except first-time buyers are upgrading) ....

...that DAW we love to hate and hate to admit how ubiquitous it is...is back with a new upgrade.

Comments? Is it interesting to you? Worth the money?

Who is jumping in?
Old 11th October 2002
  #2
It's not available yet. Jan / Feb next year?

Plug ins on the fly FINALLY!

More comprehensive 'grooves' for Beat Detective might make drum chopping less rigid in future.. Grooves are good!

Cool new mixing functions allow you to select ALL the plugins (and all the sends) from a group of tracks (lets say the basic tracks) and LAY them across the next song to mix... Gone will be the tedious process of importing tracks - deleting the audio and hopping over the new songs audio... Just like threading up a new reel to see how it sounds before zero-ing the desk.

+ Some new session file stash functions that post prod / AV loonies will find usefull..

No idea on price.
Old 11th October 2002
  #3
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
First off, HD is not a flop. It had a slow start mainly because of plugin compatibility. About 3 out of 4 Mix clients have upgraded by now or are doing it as we speak, and those include some major studio's.
And like it or not .... the ones holding off right now are only doing it because of the lack of (k)'s ........ :eek:
But that is a very delicate subject nobody realy wants to talk about or admit ....

But that aside .....

Yes .... PT6 has some very nice new features : for those who want the whole list :


http://www.digidesign.com/news/hotnews/PTv6/
Old 11th October 2002
  #4
Lives for gear
 
drundall's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
You can call LA Upgrade City.
Old 11th October 2002
  #5
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I was being a little provocative about PT HD...but the 'flop' part isn't me, it's what I hear from various Digi distributors.

It is true that virtually no one with big MixPlus systems has upgraded in France, apart from a handful of composers for their private high-end home studios.

Why is not a secret...it's because of the investment already made in MixPlus. Few businesspeople are willing to throw away their investment for a nominal improvement that clients (over here) are not demanding, much less willing to pay a premium for.


Anyway, back to PT6...plugins on the fly would be a godsend for guys who mix in the box. No auto delay compensation?

Are many of you using beat detective? There seem to be a lot of new features around that.

I think the file management features could be potentially very helpful...there are so many messed-up sessions...clients coming in with missing files on the one CD or hard drive they didn't bring, etc.
Old 11th October 2002
  #6
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RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jon
I was being a little provocative about PT HD...but the 'flop' part isn't me, it's what I hear from various Digi distributors.

It is true that virtually no one with big MixPlus systems has upgraded in France, apart from a handful of composers for their private high-end home studios.

Why is not a secret...it's because of the investment already made in MixPlus. Few businesspeople are willing to throw away their investment for a nominal improvement that clients (over here) are not demanding, much less willing to pay a premium for.
o
That's too bad. The improvement is not nominal. The sound quality is vastly improved at every stage and the more than double dsp power is awesome. I would think that anybody with a large MixPlus system would have long ago paid for it--if not, then it was their bad investment to begin with and PTHD will also be a bad investment. Furthermore, I found the upgrade path to be extremely fair.

It's unlikely that your clients will demand an upgrade at first. But when the guy down the street is cranking out bigger and better sounding projects in less time, it will be because he upgraded. I've never bought any piece of gear because a client wanted it.

I don't know how it could be a flop from any perspective. Here they can't build them fast enough.

Do you think the lack of plugin cracks could be a big reason that a lot of people aren't upgrading?

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Old 11th October 2002
  #7
Jon has a lot of Apogee converters, upgrading isn't so straight forward a proposition for an Apogee owner...

It kinda threw us all a curve ball that the 'interface / direct to card hook up' agreement between Apogee & Digidesign was terminated with PTHD.

Old 11th October 2002
  #8
Gear Head
 
dstagl's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I think the lack of plugins being ready slowed down a lot of people from getting on the HD bus. But I think the lack of cracked plugins, as sad as that is, has kept a lot of people from upgrading, not that they'd admit that, though.

I'm personally looking forward to PT 6.0 even though there aren't a whole lot of new features. The file management stuff will be great for me along with the ability to import track settings. However, I think the plug-in thing is again going to be an obstacle for a lot of people, especially anyone who just went through the PITA to move over to HD. Now they get to do it all over again.

If Digi has some nice Mix to HD upgrade packages that go with a 6.0 upgrade, I'll probably try and talk my boss into upgrading everything. Otherwise, I think I'll have to settle for just the software right now.

Dave
Old 11th October 2002
  #9
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thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Hi Jules,

I thought I read somewhere that Apogee had solved this, kinda like Prism did it for their unit? Or is this just a rumor?



Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Jon has a lot of Apogee converters, upgrading isn't so straight forward a proposition for an Apogee owner...

It kinda threw us all a curve ball that the 'interface / direct to card hook up' agreement between Apogee & Digidesign was terminated with PTHD.

Old 11th October 2002
  #10
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Someone has finally spoken the truth!!!

And the church says..AMEN!!!

Right on Rick!!!




Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman


Do you think the lack of plugin cracks could be a big reason that a lot of people aren't upgrading?

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Old 11th October 2002
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Renie's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I think the path of resistence to the HD upgrade is rather more complex than lack of finance or due to cracks. (Although either or both these factors are no doubt in the pot for some people.)

In fact, it could be argued that the more money and sense you've got, the less likely you are to upgrade.

Hans Zimmer, on Jules' wavelength:
"I've been using those Euphonix convertors on my Pro Tools system and they sound really good. Now, funnily enough, Euphonix can't get a license from Digidesign to have the convertors on the new system and you have to buy Pro Tools ones. I always resent being pushed into corners like that, when you're suddenly not being given a choice. I'm also a little pissed off with Pro Tools at the moment as the new system works out pretty expensive and a lot of the plug-in's need to be rewritten. I'm sticking with the old one for now." August 2002.

On Black Hawk Down, Hans was using 23 Pro Tools rigs and about 50 Giga set-up's, plus Cubase and Creamware. I think he can afford to make a balanced decision.

I lack the finance he has and therefore the range of systems of choices he has, so when I can afford it I will probably upgrade the one system I do have. As an Apogee Trak 2 owner I'm pleased to be taking my time and having my options open should I change my mind.
Old 11th October 2002
  #12
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Hi Jules,

I thought I read somewhere that Apogee had solved this, kinda like Prism did it for their unit? Or is this just a rumor?



I would be extremely carefull depending on reverse engineered interfaces for PT HD. You might upgrade your soft and find out that those interfaces are not compatible anymore for example.

I do not by definition agree with their policy regarding third party interfaces but that's what they've decided on so .... unless going through the legacy port or by digitally hooking the apogee / prism whatever interface to the digi interface .... I wouldn't count on reverse engineered stuff to work for a very long time.
Old 12th October 2002
  #13
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
The sound quality is vastly improved at every stage and the more than double dsp power is awesome.

Do you think the lack of plugin cracks could be a big reason that a lot of people aren't upgrading?

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
The sound quality and plug-in instantiations have improved for those mixing in the box, using many plugins. But...major-label projects and clients that I see generally do not mix in the box, and they don't care about cracked plug-ins they never use. Where is the improvement for these people?

Though you state that you do not factor client tastes into your gear choices, I believe most successful businesspeople listen to their clients and what they want.

If my clients were demanding PT HD, I'd be taking out a lease on a new system tomorrow, like it or not. And Jules is correct; if there had been a direct Apogee hook-up, I may have upgraded as a cheaper way of getting to 48-64 outputs.

***********

Renie, that's a great quote by Hans Zimmer. I agree with him.
Old 12th October 2002
  #14
"Hi Jules,

I thought I read somewhere that Apogee had solved this, kinda like Prism did it for their unit? Or is this just a rumor?"

- what Chris said..

Or buy the Digital I/i interface... Is that shipping yet Chris?

You can run ANY 96k converter via that

Old 12th October 2002
  #15
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman


Do you think the lack of plugin cracks could be a big reason that a lot of people aren't upgrading?
Not for me - I have no cracked software on any of the three computers in my control room, nor on my home computer. I did not upgrade at the beginning of the HD release simply because (A) the plugins which were not ported over at that time, and (B), money.

Now most plugins are available on the HD, but I still don't have a bunch of money. However, give me an old fashioned tape transport for HD so that I don't have to have the computer monitor on when I track and I'll have more interest in making the plunge to HD.

By the way Rick, we enjoyed hanging at your place on Wednesday - sorry we barged in and interrupted the work...
Old 14th October 2002
  #16
Gear Addict
 
Greg Heimbecker's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'll damn well hold off on 6 til ALL the plugins I rely on have migrated. I'll probably wait for about the 2nd round of updates to the OS X product and let somebody else find the bugs...

We traded in (as I suspect many did) right at the June 30 deadline and were then assisted in our wait for plugins by the hardware being backordered for 10 weeks. The new converters are a HUGE improvement over the 888s and new projects are sounding very cool. I'm pretty hamstrung on some old projects I want to finish up where I made extensive use of Bombfactory plugs and to a lesser degree TC Megareverb (easier to substitute for now that Altiverb is here). Since I do mix "in the box" losing my goto comps and the Mooger Fooger plugs puts a severe crimp in my workflow. I certainly can't bill for the time to substitute other plugs, account for tonal shift and compensate for different delay offsets for an entire albums worth of mixes. I finished all crucial projects before making the switch with the exception of a pet project I'm producing and a couple of older projects that have resurfaced for more attention.

I suppose I should diversify my plugins even more and look forward to the new TDM ports of the UA plugs and the Sony comp. After a major overhaul of the control room in August (Mackie 56x8 out, Control 24 and a bunch of new pres/outboard in and a complete rewire) it's going to be a minute before I have the dough for a bunch of new plugs.

It's kind of funny I know respected pros using cracked software but here in a University environment where such behavior is usually rampant we have none. In fact we have periodic internal audits wherein we have to prove ownership of all software we use, go figure...

The upgrade to HD was a large step up sonically in my book (no doubt aided and abetted by 650' of Mogami 8pr), particularly when clocked from my Myteks. 6 seems more like an operational upgrade and all software I use will need to be OS X ready (like what CD assembly softare to use?). I think I'll just hop up on this fence here and sit a spell til next summer or so and let the dust settle a bit before I venture into PT6.
Old 14th October 2002
  #17
Gear Addict
 
mixer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
im with you i love hd....just sounds loads better to me...i will also wait for pt6 and the plugins to be ready...unless there is a discounted upgrade price (hopefully free for recent purchasers of hd systems,,,hint).
Old 15th October 2002
  #18
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jon


The sound quality and plug-in instantiations have improved for those mixing in the box, using many plugins. But...major-label projects and clients that I see generally do not mix in the box, and they don't care about cracked plug-ins they never use. Where is the improvement for these people?

Though you state that you do not factor client tastes into your gear choices, I believe most successful businesspeople listen to their clients and what they want.

If my clients were demanding PT HD, I'd be taking out a lease on a new system tomorrow, like it or not.

What would you do if your clients demanded ADAT's?

You're right. IF you already have good external converters and IF you don't use plugins and IF you're happy with traditional sample rates and IF you have no desire to ever mix in the box then certainly there would be little reason, at this point, to upgrade. If Hans Zimmer has 23 systems cooking along quite nicely then why mess with it? However, I think that the newer Protools simply requires less analog massaging, so who knows how you might re-evaluate your possibilities down the line?

Orphaning the Apogees is a problem, but between the legacy ports and the digital in/out box it's doable, right? Although certainly at an additional cost, which I agree is a drag. (OTOH, you may try those new HD converters and decide to dump the Apogees.)

In any case, I feel certain that you'll upgrade--it's just a question of when. Furthermore, when you do, and go to PT 6, I think you'll like the whole thing lots better.

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Old 16th October 2002
  #19
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e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by dstagl
But I think the lack of cracked plugins, as sad as that is, has kept a lot of people from upgrading, not that they'd admit that, though.
The lack of cracked plug in's is keeping me from upgrading. Screw your I lok system, I'll buy the plug in, after I have a crack I can throw on any rental rig I'm using.
Old 16th October 2002
  #20
Lives for gear
 
davemc's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I upgraded as I still had 882/1622 combo so it made a good deal with the new converters, and extra power for free almost. I now record at 96k as I heard something..

PT6 well plugs on the fly would be cool. The click plug.
OSX itself, well I only use the Mac for PT and would probably have to upgrade the G4/400 so I really do not know. I am not one to fall behind PT6 has nothing real cool, plugin compensation would be cool and worth it...

I do not know why everyone is giving Jon a hard time, if he has good converters and a great desk he does not need HD at the moment.
Plugs, well I buy mine, I got rid of the bombfactory stuff after upgrade and do not miss them much, maybe the Pultec. Using more hardware comps lately and have McDsp anyhow.
Old 16th October 2002
  #21
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman


What would you do if your clients demanded ADAT's?

In any case, I feel certain that you'll upgrade--it's just a question of when. Furthermore, when you do, and go to PT 6, I think you'll like the whole thing lots better.

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
I'd rent the ADATs, then buy if they were regularly requested.

Like you, I'm sure I'll upgrade eventually, provided PT remains popular, when we need more than 48 outputs which PT HD does well. I wouldn't mind skipping a generation, though.

I did try the HD192s...pretty good, but I prefered the Apogees for what I do.

Jon
Old 18th October 2002
  #22
Lives for gear
 
SoundEng1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hi Folks,

First of all, I'd also like to thank you for all your feedback, - we do take it seriously. I can promise you that we know how valuable automatic delay compensation is, and as some of you already know, adding it to Pro Tools has been Digi’s goal for a while. While this is very high on the long list of stuff we’d like to add, it hasn’t happened yet because we have had to focus on transitioning our entire product line to OSX. As the Mac is still a favorite platform for many, this transition was not an option for us, and it has been no small task either - it will have taken the team over two years of coding by the time it is complete! I’m happy to say that although 6.0 doesn’t include as many new features as some of our previous software releases, we were able to add a bunch of other things, including some you specifically asked for, such as addition of Trim Scrub with Pro Control and Control|24, and TDM Plug-In instantiation on-the-fly. And now that Pro Tools’ OSX support is almost done, we’ll be able to return our focus to even more new features, including auto delay compensation.

Some folks have questioned whether auto delay compensation hasn’t been done because it isn’t doable. I can say for sure that the TDM architecture is capable of supporting auto delay compensation, but it is a lot of work to do, and quite a bit more to do it right . It isn’t just a case of advancing tracks behind the scenes; many other things have to be taken into account too:

First of all, Pro Tools’ mixer architecture is completely dynamic, so users can configure it almost any way they wish. With auto delay compensation, this flexibility means that the implementation must manage the wide variety of configurations with their associated accumulating delays. For example, when routing a channel to a sub-group as well as a main output (such as when setting up a compressed drum sub group), the two arrival times at the main output might be different. This is just one "sub group" in the whole mix that has to be considered. Managing this essentially requires that Pro Tools considers all routing paths and then determines the compensation required for each track accordingly.
Many Pro Tools users have other devices synchronized with Pro Tools - all of which must be managed correctly. Other timeline elements should to be considered as well, such as ensuring markers, sync points, automation playlists, etc. reference the relative audio position correctly.
Finally, all plug-ins need to broadcast the amount of delay, and do so accurately, so that Pro Tools can compensate for all inserts.
So while all of this is certainly achievable, implementing and testing it to ensure all scenarios are correctly accounted for will take a while, as I am sure you can imagine.
It’s important for the many folks reading this who are new to this topic that we clarify that the delays we are talking about here are not an issue in many of the common mixing scenarios, and with many of the plug ins. Most of the Digidesign and third party plug-ins have a few samples of delay, so if you are using mono tracks there isn’t an audible issue here (e.g. 4 samples at 44.1 kHz is 90 microseconds of delay). Using plug-ins with longer delays may have a noticeable affect, such as affecting the musical groove of a track, but in those cases, Pro Tools does allow you to manually compensate for delays. I think most of you are aware of the options here, but in case not, I’ll quickly summarize them:

TimeAdjuster Plug-In - The track delay indicators in the Mix window display the total delay for the track. The TimeAdjuster Plug-In can be used to match the delay value for tracks that need to remain phase coherent.

Audio Playlist Nudging - Audio playlists can be advanced by nudging in sample increments to compensate for the amount of insert delay on the track.

As you know, we don’t pre-announce releases more than several months before they ship so that we avoid causing disappointment if there are unavoidable release delays or changes of content. So while I can say we will be adding auto delay compensation to Pro Tools future release, I don’t have a release time frame to share with you right now, (although we’re obviously already thinking hard about it!)
Thanks again for your feedback,

Wendy Abowd
Director, Pro Tools Product Line
Old 18th October 2002
  #23
Here the heart of the matter

"Some folks have questioned whether auto delay compensation hasn’t been done because it isn’t doable. I can say for sure that the TDM architecture is capable of supporting auto delay compensation, but it is a lot of work to do, and quite a bit more to do it right ."

That always been the case. It's a rather unglamorus and boring job for Digi to do.

Hopefully by next year when PT 6 actually COMES OUT.

Old 18th October 2002
  #24
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Renie's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Back to the original question then...

Yes PT6 and HD is starting to look more and more appealing to me.
This auto delay compensation promise helps and the carrot of more features to come. The whole MIDI side is looking better, with time stamping and more connectivity between audio and MIDI with groove quantizing.

The stick is the way the Mix systems are going to struggle with the newest Apple hardware and the doubts about whether we will get auto-del-comp etc etc.

I still feel reluctant about HD because
1) Value for money..??
2) Convertors- loss of liberties.
3) The hardware looks a bit cheap to me
4) It feels like a slightly spicier Mix system rather than a radical step ahead- so skipping an upgrade is appealing too!
Old 19th October 2002
  #25
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🎧 15 years
Yeah I still think it is a cop out to keep saying maybe next time again and again. Yeah the pretty new graphics(cubase x DP) are really more important.
Even if they did negative adjusting for plugins and hardware insterts to start with it would be great.

You really think they would do it for HD to push people to upgrade quicker. So far there still is not that much difference at 44.1/48k.
Old 25th October 2002
  #26
Gear Addict
 
mixer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
just got in from a pro tools seminar..where i talked to a pro tools executive...he told me that pt6 will probably be out in january..and that almoust all the major plugin partners will have there software ready and most at no charge..also he said that 6.1 will also be released very soon thereafter with some major changes..lots of midi stuff......he wouldn't say much more...i am going to a pt6 in depth clinic in the begining of november where he said all will be revealed........also waves has said they are pretty much ready also mcdsp is ready with a free os10 .2 upgreade..........sounds like the initial release will have a lot more than just the features at the aes....at least in 6.1
Old 25th October 2002
  #27
Gear Maniac
 
Neve Sucks!'s Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
What I would like is a new type of track. Like the instrument track in Logic. Where you can insert synth plugins. Just like logic.....
Old 26th October 2002
  #28
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by mixer
..also he said that 6.1 will also be released very soon thereafter with some major changes..

My magic 8 ball says :

is PT6.0 going to have automatic plugin delay compensation?

magic 8 ball : don't count on it.

is PT 6.1 going to have it ?

magic 8 ball : ask again later.

(took the magic 8 ball in a seperate room after that answer and threatened it over the garbage can and asked the same question again)

magic 8 ball : it is decidedly so.


My magic 8 ball NEVER lies.


grggt grggt grggt
Old 28th October 2002
  #29
Here for the gear
 
masteringsouth's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
HD is growing

Well, it seems that each city deals with PT HD upgrades according to how much bussiness there is.
As consultant and dealer i can vouch that many private studios have gone HD. Some of the bigger studios in Birmingham have not or have only made a small upgrade just to keep up with private studios.
Imagine, you have these nice rooms and you are on your second year of leasing and whammm, the rules change. then the guy down the street in his small home made studio has more power and better sound than wthe big studio has...
A lot of people were upset at Digi for offering something twice as powerful as they had for what was their initial investment.
As a producer I have had to let go of this issue. It is always inevitable to upgrade for a pro. The thing is to try to sell your gear right beforeit looses most of its value, and then hope that you have a shot at getting the new generation ASAP.
Personally, by the time i needed to upgrade I had already recovered my initial investment.
With 192khz a lot more people will be able to do HD 5,1 work, including Mastering....
By the way, of all the major articles written about the 192 interface, none has said that Apogee sounds better.
Anyway, we don't need Aardvarks anymore. and Apogees at 192, we will see...So many converters now sound very fine at 96k, like those in the hardware version of the Waves L2, even the Masterlink's sound OK, and the Tascam A/D/A card for the MX2424 too...Everything is improving quite fast.

Digi is defineely going the way of sonic clarity. The Apogees do sound a bit darker in comparison. And then again, your perception depends on how much hearing loss you already have, your room, how you hear your speakers, or whether you heard loud noises earlier in the day .
As new personal rule, I don't do band tracking anymore. My assistant-partner does it for me. The older i get, and the better i percieve sound and music, the more conservative i have become in choosing what sounds i subject myself too.
Anyway, even just a little bit of allergy can do a number on you hearing...

I'll be going to DIGI for training before the end of the year. I hope to come back with some fresh new info on 6.0 . I will probably wait to upgrade till March or so, just as a precaution. I am looking forward to saying goodbye to Opcode and 9.X, hopefully forever,
Art
Old 30th October 2002
  #30
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: HD is growing

Quote:
Originally posted by masteringsouth
Imagine, you have these nice rooms and you are on your second year of leasing and whammm, the rules change. then the guy down the street in his small home made studio has more power and better sound than wthe big studio has...
The so-called big studio wasn't very well-equipped if an HD upgrade did them in.

HD's potential advantage for the big studios is in the number of outputs to the console possible for the price. Not plug-ins (the main ones I see people using in big rooms anyway are auto-tune and pitch-n-time) and not sound.

The current freelancer in our room (from England) wants Apogee and Prism converters, not HD192, for the album mix. We're trying to find a good 1/2" machine for him as well. From the front lines, FWIW, YMMV.
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