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An open letter to Uli Behringer
Old 4th February 2013
  #31
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
What voltages are required? The easiest solution to replacing a multi-output transformer is often to combine multiple transformers to provide the required voltages. In this case, preferably of higher specification.
Old 4th February 2013 | Show parent
  #32
Lives for gear
 
Radardoug's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
There's at least three separate windings and limited space. Easier to get a rewind.
Old 4th February 2013 | Show parent
  #33
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radardoug ➑️
There's at least three separate windings and limited space. Easier to get a rewind.
Yes, but at what price?

Mind you, I'm cheap and have a strong back, so the 80lb mic preamp is a viable option. May not be this way in twenty years.
Old 4th February 2013 | Show parent
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Radardoug's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The Behringer agent had already indicated problems getting the replacement part. Being at the end of the world here, getting parts can be difficult. Beleive me, if I could have done it with an off the shelf part, I would have.
Old 4th February 2013 | Show parent
  #35
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radardoug ➑️
The Behringer agent had already indicated problems getting the replacement part. Being at the end of the world here, getting parts can be difficult. Beleive me, if I could have done it with an off the shelf part, I would have.
Quote me the specs and I bet I can find you one. There's several specialty parts dealers for the DIY hi-fi market.
Old 4th February 2013 | Show parent
  #36
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JohnRoberts's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrshaul ➑️
Quote me the specs and I bet I can find you one. There's several specialty parts dealers for the DIY hi-fi market.
That sounds easy enough...

Give him the specs...

JR
Old 4th February 2013 | Show parent
  #37
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoBeach ➑️
I read decent reviews on this amp, it must have been a bad apple.

Too bad
Old 6th February 2013 | Show parent
  #38
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRoberts ➑️
That sounds easy enough...

Give him the specs...

JR
Given the number of these sold, someone has to have the correct specifications.
Old 6th February 2013
  #39
Old 6th February 2013 | Show parent
  #40
Lives for gear
 
S2udio's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrshaul ➑️
Given the number of these sold, someone has to have the correct specifications.
Highly unlikely
Not unless you get one specially wound.
Which is what the OP did........got it rewound !
Some naive comments there,as most of the posters here are seasoned
Technicians.
Old 6th February 2013 | Show parent
  #41
S21
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S21's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by S2udio ➑️
Highly unlikely
Not unless you get one specially wound.
Which is what the OP did........got it rewound !
Some naive comments there,as most of the posters here are seasoned
Technicians.
Or wait a couple of weeks for the correct part...
Old 6th February 2013 | Show parent
  #42
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by S2udio ➑️
Highly unlikely
Not unless you get one specially wound.
Which is what the OP did........got it rewound !
Some naive comments there,as most of the posters here are seasoned
Technicians.
This is a power transformer. As long as it produces the correct voltage at greater or equal to the original specified amperage, it's good to go. Yes, there's some headaches with RFI and toroids, but it's not that important.

I can say this, rather curiously, because I've built one of these amps. Not so much the digital section (which, if you look at the schematic, use regulated power) but the power amp - a standard-issue LM3886 "Gainclone" design. I have some of them in a bin somewhere.
Old 6th February 2013
  #43
Lives for gear
 
S2udio's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The configuration of the transformer is what makes it a "not of the shelf"part
You require 3 seperate windings of specified VA ratings.
As you stated "its only a power transformer" well yes as long as you can find a replacement,
That will actually fit the space given.........send us a link when you find one
That will surfice !
heh
Old 11th February 2013 | Show parent
  #44
Lives for gear
 
Radardoug's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Well, Uli, the amplifier is working again, no thanks to you! I had a problem with the third winding that feeds the DSP card, it ended up wound a bit higher voltage than it should have been, but a series resistor solved that, although the non heatsinked 5 volt regulator gets a bit hot. And the crappy plastic thread input jack was loose and required replacement.

All in all, Uli, if this is your best effort in design and construction, I suggest you give up. And to all you buyers out there, you have been warned! Bad design, bad construction, and no customer service! What a winning formula, Uli!

I have given you an opportunity to comment here, and you have not. Your silence speaks volumes.
Old 11th February 2013
  #45
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Doug, you knew before you started that Uli doesn't care...if he did, he wouldn't be doing what he's doing: Making a boatload of money hitting a price-point, quality be damned.
He's on that boat right now, in his jammies, snacking on bon-bons and checking his account balance. And laughing....He did make a couple of phone calls, though. One to his countrymen at Beyer - he asked that Madchen's banner ad be removed at once. Thanks - now we're all paying the price. The other call? Well....don't buy any green bananas.
Old 11th February 2013 | Show parent
  #46
S21
Lives for gear
 
S21's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radardoug ➑️
Well, Uli, the amplifier is working again, no thanks to you! I had a problem with the third winding that feeds the DSP card, it ended up wound a bit higher voltage than it should have been, but a series resistor solved that, although the non heatsinked 5 volt regulator gets a bit hot. And the crappy plastic thread input jack was loose and required replacement.

All in all, Uli, if this is your best effort in design and construction, I suggest you give up. And to all you buyers out there, you have been warned! Bad design, bad construction, and no customer service! What a winning formula, Uli!

I have given you an opportunity to comment here, and you have not. Your silence speaks volumes.
I think you are a little unhinged if you expect the CEO of a large company to be sitting reading forums and jump to the rescue of someone (not even the owner of the product) who won't wait a couple of weeks for a replacement part. Your expectation of anything but silence speaks volumes about you. The lack of customer service was your doing. Have you never waited a couple of weeks for a part in your career as a tech? Man, you must have it good where you are!

Yes Behringer knew that they had QC problems. That's why they got their own factory; they needed the control. They didn't get their own factory because they thought the smog in that part of the city was pretty. Clearly there must have been unlikeable products that got out the door before they made that decision. The problem in China is that the high end manufacturers capture a lot of the good production lines in long term contracts. Small runs of products jobbed out to a different lowest bidder each time doesn't make for repeatable quality.

After you insisted that the number of windings on the transformer were wrong (rewinding to a "better" design), I find it pretty humorous to hear that the output voltages from the transformer are now wrong. I guess that is Behringer's fault too?
Old 11th February 2013 | Show parent
  #47
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JohnRoberts's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by S21 ➑️
I think you are a little unhinged if you expect the CEO of a large company to be sitting reading forums and jump to the rescue of someone (not even the owner of the product) who won't wait a couple of weeks for a replacement part. Your expectation of anything but silence speaks volumes about you. The lack of customer service was your doing. Have you never waited a couple of weeks for a part in your career as a tech? Man, you must have it good where you are!
Uli has actually posted elsewhere on this forum, but generally in support of X-32 and high volume products in high volume markets. I am not smart enough to know what he is thinking.
Quote:
Yes Behringer knew that they had QC problems. That's why they got their own factory; they needed the control. They didn't get their own factory because they thought the smog in that part of the city was pretty. Clearly there must have been unlikeable products that got out the door before they made that decision.
I've adressed this on another forum, but I have been inside and used one of the very Chinese contract manufacturers accused of quality problems. I did not experience any problems from that iso 9000 factory. While not a specific comment about Uli's experience, but the customer specifies the components used, so there are more reasons than just assembly errors for high failure rates after a product build.
Quote:
The problem in China is that the high end manufacturers capture a lot of the good production lines in long term contracts. Small runs of products jobbed out to a different lowest bidder each time doesn't make for repeatable quality.
Can't argue with that, but there are several very large and very good CM in China. They manage to expand to satisfy the production needs of a consumer company like Apple. MI audio is small change.
Quote:
After you insisted that the number of windings on the transformer were wrong (rewinding to a "better" design), I find it pretty humorous to hear that the output voltages from the transformer are now wrong. I guess that is Behringer's fault too?
I am pretty sure Behringer does not approve of such self-help. The product needs to use an original equipment transformer (for multiple reasons), while hopefully better built than his first experience.

When you live at the end of the world, customer service is challenging for all companies.

JR
Old 11th February 2013
  #48
Lives for gear
 
Jazz Noise's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
My girlfreind left me and I'm pretty sure a dog tried to pee on me at the busstop today.

THANKS ALOT, ULI!
Old 11th February 2013 | Show parent
  #49
Lives for gear
 
dualflip's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Ill tell you my experience with behringer, they make rather nice cheap gear, but the trick is this, IF you buy something from behringer, use it for a year or two MAX, then sell it while its still working, because I can guarantee that it will fail. Thats why I did with a Behringer console I used to have ages ago, I bought the biggest studio behrniger console, I actually liked it, then after a couple of years I sold it and basically got my money back, the console was still working but Im almost sure it already died once since then.

So with behringer think more in tearms of "lease" than acquisition, buy, use, sell, buy use sell. Thats the only way you wont end up rewinding your transformers...

I have to say though, Im a big fan of the Behringer cable tester, and it has served me for years...
Old 11th February 2013
  #50
S21
Lives for gear
 
S21's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
China has some outstanding manufacturers.
Old 12th February 2013 | Show parent
  #51
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by S21 ➑️
China has some outstanding counterfeiters.
fixed
Old 12th February 2013 | Show parent
  #52
Lives for gear
 
dualflip's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real MC ➑️
fixed
Old 12th February 2013
  #53
Lives for gear
 
uOpt's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radardoug ➑️
He opened it up, and described it as a rough wind job, with evidence that the winding had been clamped in a vise and pushed in. He unwound it and found that there were insufficient turns on the primary. Bad4!
FWIW, Uli doesn't order this. Chinese factories pull these stunts behind the back of the company they manufacture for. If the thing did work fine until it blew up I wouldn't see how even direct QA on part of Behringer could have caught this. Not that Behringer customers like to pay for such QA.
Old 12th February 2013 | Show parent
  #54
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Hi
The 'art' to design and manufacture is to make a product that works flawlessly for a given number of years but which will fail completely immediately after.
There may be 'suspect' work going on but in the main the (probably) girls in assembly of the various products could be assembling 25 carat 'gold plated excellence' or absolute 'poo', the assembly work itself is independant.
It is down to QC to root out the 'dodgy' components.
It is also a matter of 'design preference' in the specifying of components. Obviously some can be identified immediately but if the design temp rise for a transformer is say 30 centigrade but a 'up market' manufacturer aims for only 20 Centigrade rise, the first is not necessarily incorrect.
Matt S
Old 12th February 2013 | Show parent
  #55
Lives for gear
 
JohnRoberts's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson ➑️
Hi
The 'art' to design and manufacture is to make a product that works flawlessly for a given number of years but which will fail completely immediately after.
There may be 'suspect' work going on but in the main the (probably) girls in assembly of the various products could be assembling 25 carat 'gold plated excellence' or absolute 'poo', the assembly work itself is independant.
It is down to QC to root out the 'dodgy' components.
While a bit of a veer... Barrier QC is about the worst way to manage build quality. Statistical sampling methods allow testing components before used, while relatively few samples are required (if all test good).

Process control methods can confirm that products are being built right before some final test.
Quote:
It is also a matter of 'design preference' in the specifying of components.
This is a point of tension for value product, where there are always cheaper parts vendors knocking on the door. Judgement and testing to confirm component quality is cheaper than replacing bad components later.
Quote:
Obviously some can be identified immediately but if the design temp rise for a transformer is say 30 centigrade but a 'up market' manufacturer aims for only 20 Centigrade rise, the first is not necessarily incorrect.
Matt S
This is generally dominated by agency engineers and oriented toward human safety concerns. Agency inspectors visit and approve factories, but don't live in the factory so "stuff" can always happen when discipline wanes.

Bad products come from western factories too so this is not unique to China, while more prevalent. The largest problem with managing manufacturing at such distance is communication. Boots on the ground (western engineers inside Chinese factories) goes a long way to improve that communication. Relying upon any factory to guess correctly about unspecified details, or unanticipated situations, is a recipe for disaster, while many small western companies get away with exactly that for years using domestic factories.

JR
Old 12th February 2013
  #56
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
It translated to "boots on the ground". Smug bastards - always pointing at things, scribbling notes and taking photos. He'd show them boots. The foreman looked up at the noise, but they all kept straight faces. Five minutes later it was done.
Old 12th February 2013 | Show parent
  #57
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Hi
I need a replacement transformer for a piece of gear made by a big American corporation, do you think if I whine they will put a new one in the post for me to arrive in the next couple of days?... no, I don't think so either.
Matt S
Old 12th February 2013 | Show parent
  #58
Lives for gear
 
Radardoug's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
My reason for raising this issue on this forum was to raise the problem of a firm that makes big claims about its cheap product, and does a lot of advertising to convince the gullible how good it is, while producing a product that is low spec or just shoddy. Behringer are not alone in this, there are others claiming greatness and producing crap.
As to the problems of getting parts from overseas, I face this every day. I have a network of good suppliers, and some agents are better at producing parts than others.
After 65 years I have seen most of the rorts, but its always fun to stir!
And I thank you folks for your lively contributions!
Old 12th February 2013 | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 
JohnRoberts's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson ➑️
Hi
I need a replacement transformer for a piece of gear made by a big American corporation, do you think if I whine they will put a new one in the post for me to arrive in the next couple of days?... no, I don't think so either.
Matt S
Not likely... and if we take the OP at face value, he is not asking for one. He is publicly tweaking Uli and asking for a public reply... equally unlikely.

If I was running a major PR campaign including promoting a new improved customer service, with participation even on this forum, I'd have one of my customer service underlings oil this squeaky wheel (with a replacement transformer). In fact I find it kind of remarkable if he is still being ignored (off list), while he has mentioned he is not even the original customer.

I am not defending Behringer, far from it, just calling it how I see it from my perspective and experience.

JR
Old 12th February 2013 | Show parent
  #60
Lives for gear
 
Richard Crowley's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radardoug ➑️
My reason for raising this issue on this forum was to raise the problem of a firm that makes big claims about its cheap product, and does a lot of advertising to convince the gullible how good it is, while producing a product that is low spec or just shoddy.
You get what you pay for. "Commercial puffery" notwithstanding. We do a disservice to customers when we act as enablers of the deceit. Having a power transformer custom rewound for a Behringer guitar amp is like having a custom crankshaft machined for an old rusted out Yugo. Sure, you can do it, buy why would you waste the money?
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