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RF preventing me from using my home studio
Old 27th December 2020
  #1
Gear Head
 
GusMachado's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
RF preventing me from using my home studio

Just moved to a new apartament, set up my old gear in a new room and turns out that now I'm receiving an unbearable amount of Radio sign. I can even listen to what the Radio show is broadcasting.

To explain the situation better, I'm going to list some info

If I plug my microphone (condenser) ----> Focuriste, then I get lower/almost nothing radio noise

If I plug my microphone (condenser)/or my p10 guitar cable (even without the guitar) ----> Presonus Bluetupe V2 Pre Amp ----> Focusrite, the I get a larger amount of radio noise.

I am the 9th Floor of a 10 story building. There is a lot of different and big antennas above the building.

My Focusrite is a Thunderbolt powered Saffire Pro 26

And my signal chain is Guitar UNBALANCED p10 ----- BlueTubev2 ---- UNBALNCED p10----Focusrite

My Bluetube is using a Powerchord to a. external power supply that only has two pins.

I use Channel 4 for Focusrite input, which I believe is combined XLR + P10 input.
And I use channel 1 unbalanced output in Focusrite.


So, I decided to conduct an experiment a first experiment , i Turned my drawer into a Faraday's cage and put my gear on it.


https://ibb.co/s3WkLk4

Noise solved, when the cables are on the drawer. But everytime I need to plug a cable in a instrument or anything outside this drawer, then I start getting Radio noise again.

Based on the learnings, I tried another thing. I've tried to use aluminum foil to "shield" my p10 cable, just to see what happens:


https://ibb.co/j6gP611


Well, this was the moment when I got the lesser amount of Radio sign. Still the solution I came up with is too sketchy.

You guys have advices or hints on how to solve that? If so, can u teach me how to do it?
Old 27th December 2020
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
analogguru's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I have no words to describe how you could solve this problem beside moving into an other appartment. Didn't you see before that you will be moving into a broadcast-tower ?

BTW, did you read the story of the guy with RF-paranoia who choose an eccentric way to solve his problems ?:
https://www.rt.com/usa/510824-nashvi...-explosion-5g/
Old 27th December 2020
  #3
Lives for gear
 
David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Surviving RFI Armagedon

Well, aren't you just the poster child for Murphey's Law? I don't know whether you'll consider this good news or bad news, Gus, but essentially everything that can go wrong already has. Making your home studio usable in this new high-RF environment is going to be a bit like fixing a boat with multiple holes in the hull: It won't do any good until you finally fix the last one.

Your first problem is the very high ambient RF level from the antenna farm on your roof. There's nothing you can do about that (short of moving), so you need to plug every hole that is allowing RF to leak into your recording rig.

The next problem is your unbalanced cables. An unbalanced cable is basically an antenna with a 1/4 inch plug on the end. RF gets induced on the shield and goes straight into your preamp. The best way to keep this from happening is to use a good quality DI box (e.g. Radial) and run a balanced line to your preamp's balanced mic input. Make the cable between the guitar and DI box as short as possible. If you don't mind it looking goofy, you can attach the DI box to your guitar with Velcro tape and use a cable that's only a few inches long. If you care about looks (or weight), it's possible to find miniature "in line" ones, such as this one from Naim.

It appears that the output of your preamp is also unbalanced. Fortunately, the 1/4-inch inputs of your Focusrite interface are actually balanced and you can benefit from this by building a properly-wired cable. You need one wired like this image from a Rane app note:



You won't find a cable like this at Guitar Center. If you can't build it yourself, you an order it from a specialty house. Redco and Markertek will build anything you want, but Pro Audio LA routinely sells this exact cable.

There might still be a problem, and that problem has a name: "The Pin 1 Problem". (Google it!) The XLR pin 1 ground connection on your Presonus couples shield noise straight onto the circuit board instead of shunting it to chassis ground. This is because a) Presonus designed the product to be as cheap as possible; and b) The wall wart power supply prevents a proper earth ground connection to chassis so any induced noise returns to earth through the output cables.

I don't know if your Focusrite also has a pin 1 problem. If Sir Rupert pays any attention to mid-range product, then hopefully not. But if so, you'll need to prevent that noise current from flowing into the interface. That requires several steps: 1) Add a ground screw to the back panel 2) Tie it to earth with a grounding braid. 3) Strap pin 1 of each XLR connector to that back panel. 4) Unsolder pin 1 from the circuit board and insert a 20 ohm resistor.

If modifying your Presonus and/or Focusrite is beyond your technical ability, you can try the following dodge: Order that interconnect cable from Pro Audio LA with the following option: "Float Ground on Unbalanced Side". That might help, but no guarantees.

The other possibility is to buy a better preamp that wasn't built to such a low price point that they threw all proper signal integrity measures overboard. You'll still need to get the guitar connection right though.

Good luck. I hope you get to record audio again some day.

David L. Rick
Attached Thumbnails
RF preventing me from using my home studio-rane-ts-trs-wiring-diagram.jpg  
Old 27th December 2020
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
borjam's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Try some ferrite beads from a reputable ham radio store. I and reputable because you can find probably fakes on eBay.

Try cooling the cable around a ferrite bar or just using a ferrite bead around the cable. It should help a lot.

Also pay attention to power supplies, sometimes RF gets into circuitry through them.
Old 28th December 2020 | Show parent
  #5
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jaddie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by borjam ➡️
Try some ferrite beads from a reputable ham radio store. I and reputable because you can find probably fakes on eBay.

Try cooling the cable around a ferrite bar or just using a ferrite bead around the cable. It should help a lot.

Also pay attention to power supplies, sometimes RF gets into circuitry through them.
Ferrite beads or toroids can work, but be aware that there are many different ferrite materials designed to work well and different frequencies. So the first thing to know is the frequency of the offending signal. Since you can hear it, that shouldn't be too hard. Post that here, and I might be able to help specifying the correct ferrite material.

There are also several other RFI protection techniques. You discovered the shield, but you can also bypass RF prone inputs with small value capacitors. These will be specific to the circuit, you won't use the same capacitors for a guitar input as you would a mic input. There are also specific RF filters made for unbalanced circuits, but more details would be needed before specifying one.

But take heart. Audio circuits of all kinds can be made to work in high RF fields. There are audio systems at radio stations that share their studio facilities with high power transmitters that produce much hotter RF fields that you are running into. And we do get those to work. One of my clients has a 6kW AM transmitter and a 1kW AM transmitter with an audio rack right under the tower base (it's roof mounted). I have ferrite toroids on many audio lines. Some absorb so much RF the get hot to the touch, but the audio devices work just fine.
Old 28th December 2020
  #6
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
You could always build a Faraday cage see https://hackaday.com/2018/09/26/buil...-faraday-cage/. I was stationed at an Army base and their "crypto" room had a full sized Faraday cage made out of brass/copper screening. It was about 8 by 10 by 8 and worked great. Many radio stations with the transmitter in close proximity use Faraday cages with the "cage" built into the walls and floors. FWIW
Old 28th December 2020
  #7
Gear Guru
One might be able to lessen the problem but they will never get rid of it. Next time bring in some gear to any rental first.
Old 30th December 2020 | Show parent
  #8
Gear Head
 
GusMachado's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie ➡️
Ferrite beads or toroids can work, but be aware that there are many different ferrite materials designed to work well and different frequencies. So the first thing to know is the frequency of the offending signal. Since you can hear it, that shouldn't be too hard. Post that here, and I might be able to help specifying the correct ferrite material.

There are also several other RFI protection techniques. You discovered the shield, but you can also bypass RF prone inputs with small value capacitors. These will be specific to the circuit, you won't use the same capacitors for a guitar input as you would a mic input. There are also specific RF filters made for unbalanced circuits, but more details would be needed before specifying one.

But take heart. Audio circuits of all kinds can be made to work in high RF fields. There are audio systems at radio stations that share their studio facilities with high power transmitters that produce much hotter RF fields that you are running into. And we do get those to work. One of my clients has a 6kW AM transmitter and a 1kW AM transmitter with an audio rack right under the tower base (it's roof mounted). I have ferrite toroids on many audio lines. Some absorb so much RF the get hot to the touch, but the audio devices work just fine.
Só glad to know that there is a solution. Please tell me all details you find necessary to help me solve this and I will look for it for you. So far I know that the RF comes from a radio that is 2,5 km for my home studio and that it's 107,9 FM.


So yeah, did some further tests



1 - balanced cables helped like 10% (not much than this)

2- Ferrite beads helped almost nothing, sonI can't tell the difference - maybe it's psychological. IM PROBABLY USING THE WRONG FERRITE BEADS.

What did helped a lot, like 95% better WAS USING A DIRECT BOX.



So here is what I did:



Used a 15 cm unvañanced gable, connected to the hiZ input of a directbox - yes a short cable, so it doesn't have much contact surface to work as an antenna and a balanced xlr cable going from the DI to the BLuetube preamp, the. Another short xlr cable, 15cm, from the preampmto the Interface. Remembering that both the interface and the preamp are inside the home made Faraday's cage I've built inside a drawer.



After this my noise is about -50db, and is not distinguishable anymore, it only sounds as static. Something easily treatable with Izotope RX + noise gate.


I know that this is no the final solution as I have to solve what to do when using condensers microfone (which I cannot simply plug into my DI).
Old 30th December 2020
  #9
Gear Nut
 
Pinebox Studio Services's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Maybe try recording an antenna cable together with your audio signal and phase cancel it.
Old 30th December 2020
  #10
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I think people are over thinking things...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GusMachado ➡️
If I plug my microphone (condenser) ----> Focuriste, then I get lower/almost nothing radio noise

If I plug my microphone (condenser)/or my p10 guitar cable (even without the guitar) ----> Presonus Bluetupe V2 Pre Amp ----> Focusrite, the I get a larger amount of radio noise.
So no noise when not using the Presonus Bluetupe V2 Pre Amp, unusable amounts of noise when you use the Presonus Bluetupe V2 Pre Amp? Seems pretty obvious where the problem lies...

Quote:
You guys have advices or hints on how to solve that? If so, can u teach me how to do it?
You yourself have already perfectly described which piece of kit is causing the problem. If you Google that preamp with "noise problems" or a similar query you will find plenty of results, including people comparing it directly to other preamps that don't give noise in the exact same setups.

Seems pretty obvious what the solution is...

Alistair
Old 31st December 2020
  #11
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Audio Engineering Society Fellow, Jim Brown is the go to radio frequency interference expert. He was past AES committee co-chair on EMI/RFI and is a Ham radio operator. Many of his 50 papers and Power Points have sections on RF interference.

http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm
Old 1st January 2021
  #12
Lives for gear
 
ruffrecords's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The Presonus has balanced outs. You should try going balanced from the Presonus to the Focusrite.

Cheers

Ian
Old 3rd January 2021 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Head
 
GusMachado's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
How can I discover the frequency? The radio dial is 107,9fm.
Old 3rd January 2021 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Ferrite choice for FM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GusMachado ➡️
How can I discover the frequency? The radio dial is 107,9fm.
Just remember that the FM band is centered around about 100 MHz. An appropriate ferrite material is one of Stewart broadband formulations: either Type 27 or 28 will work, with the latter being more easily available. For pre-built cables, the snap-on split cores are most convenient. If you build your own cables, you can save money by using the cylindrical cores. Choose a style that fits your cable diameter and has a large impedance ("Z") at 100 MHz. Put one at each end of the cable, as close to the connector as practical. You can secure it place with tie wraps. I like to cover mine with shrink tubing for cleaner appearance.

Here's a table of the available off-the-shelf Stewart ferrite cores.

David L. Rick

Last edited by David Rick; 3rd January 2021 at 08:15 PM.. Reason: MHz, not Hz
Old 3rd January 2021 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
jaddie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GusMachado ➡️
How can I discover the frequency? The radio dial is 107,9fm.
You have the requency: 107.9Mhz.

This kit would be appropriate.

HOWEVER.......

Trying to eliminate RFI from getting into a unit that is prone to RFI is not the best solution. As others have said, if you replace the offending unit with something good, RFI protection should be built-in.

The kit sown above has some cylindrical cores and some toroid (donuts). Sometimes you have to take a cable and loop it through the toroid several times for added effectiveness.

Old 3rd January 2021
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
analogguru's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
And I bet, that the FM-radio-station on 107,9 Mhz which is located 2,5 km away is NOT your problem. FM (= Frequency-Modulated) signals at such a high frequency will not be demodulated as described. Don't forget that you are in...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GusMachado ➡️
... the 9th Floor of a 10 story building. There is a lot of different and big antennas above the building.
Maybe the same signal from the radio station is also broadcasted in AM (Amplitude-Modulation) on mediumwave or shortwave.
Old 3rd January 2021 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
jaddie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogguru ➡️
And I bet, that the FM-radio-station on 107,9 Mhz which is located 2,5 km away is NOT your problem. FM (= Frequency-Modulated) signals at such a high frequency will not be demodulated as described. Don't forget that you are in...


Maybe the same signal from the radio station is also broadcasted in AM (Amplitude-Modulation) on mediumwave or shortwave.
It's called "Slope Demodulation", rudimentary FM demodulation based on a non-flat amplitude response across the modulated bandwidth. No unintentional antenna has flat response over any particular RF range. And with the raw RF is of sufficient intensity, the "slope" doesn't have to be great at all. The result is incidental AM, which is easily detected by anything approximating a diode, and modulation audio is recovered.

That's how the OP identified the source, he heard it.

There are a few building-top AM stations, but these are not the norm. There's a problem with the ground plane. You want ground radial wires going out from the tower base nearly as far as it is tall, and that's impossible on the top of a building. Since the entire tower is half of the AM antenna (the other half is reflected downward by the ground plane) it's not efficient to provide a tiny ground plane on a building top. It can be done, and is done, but the chances are fairly small.

AM stations stopped commonly simulcasting with their FM cousins some years ago. That's not done much either today, not zero, but not common.
Old 4th January 2021
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
analogguru's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Your "slope demodulation" can only occur when there is enough RF-signal to be "demodulated". I doubt that there enters enough signal at a frequency of 100 MHz - not with today's equipment, nada.

You don't know the country the guy is living, the guy can't even post a (helpful) picture of the "big antennas on his roof" and "GusMachado" sounds spanish so it can be a caribean island, therefore any speculation what is been transmitted on which frequency is worthless.

The guy doesn't even know if it is 107,9 MHz or not, so it is not clear what he heard - can also be some ghost voices.

BTW, I am a licensed radio amateur since more than 40 years.

Soo.... are you ready to bet against my claim that the FM-radio station on 107,9 MHz in a distance of 2,5 km is NOT causing the problems that the guy has ?

Last edited by analogguru; 4th January 2021 at 12:43 AM..
Old 4th January 2021 | Show parent
  #19
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jaddie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogguru ➡️
Your "slope demodulation" can only occur when there is enough RF-signal to be "demodulated". I doubt that there enters enough signal at a frequency of 100 MHz - not with today's equipment, nada.

You don't know the country the guy is living, the guy can't even post a (helpful) picture of the "big antennas on his roof" and "GusMachado" sounds spanish so it can be a caribean island, therefore any speculation what is been transmitted on which frequency is worthless.

The guy doesn't even know if it is 107,9 MHz or not, so it is not clear what he heard - can also be some ghost voices.

BTW, I am a licensed radio amateur since more than 40 years.

Soo.... are you ready to bet against my claim that the FM-radio station on 107,9 MHz in a distance of 2,5 km is NOT causing the problems that the guy has ?
If the FM is [email protected] 500ft, at 2.5 miles the field is a bit over 115dBu at 30', hotter if he's higher. Is that hot enough? Depends on what's detecting it. But it doesn't need much slope to make that work with mic-level gain, or whatever.

I don't know, I really don't like troubleshooting RFI in the forums. RFI troubleshooting is so interactive, so much trial/error. Really hard across the forum, language, country, and lack of data. OK, especially lack of data.

One of my "hats" says "Broadcast Engineer" on it, it's the one that currently pays most of the bills, though I should have retired a while back, it seems a bunch of stations still need my help. I'd have to call myself an ex-ham, as I haven't keyed a rig in 20 years, but I guest the license is still good. But none of that means I have any concrete answers about RFI!

My best Ham buddy passed in 2009, and another one passed last Wednesday. So nice to meet you.
Old 4th January 2021 | Show parent
  #20
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David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Slope sliding away

Quote:
Originally Posted by analogguru ➡️
Your "slope demodulation" can only occur when there is enough RF-signal to be "demodulated". I doubt that there enters enough signal at a frequency of 100 MHz - not with today's equipment, nada.
Sure, if he's quoting us the frequency, it's probably because he heard a call sign. And we're not talking "today's equipment", we're talking a bad imitation of yesterday's equipment, in which the 48V phantom supply reportedly serves double-duty as plate bias to save money. Obviously, if they're cutting corners like that, they've long since thrown any modern best-practice RF countermeasures overboard as well. "Jim Brown? Henry Ott? Who dey?" I looked at some pictures of the thing with its lid off and the mic cable shield ties directly to the PCB. Classic pin 1 problem.

Fun fact: I once inherited responsibility for an industrial Doppler sensor based on slope demodulation. On a good day, it did what it was supposed to do. On a bad day, it demodulated stuff from the local airport. I eventually replaced it with a direct sampling receiver of my own design.
Old 4th January 2021
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
analogguru's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Interesting... (FM-)slope demodulation of an airport's AM-signal....

Now let''s see:

My spies told me this guy is living in Sao Paolo, Brazil
and the Radio station on 107,9 is Radio Tropical FM located in

Rua Pedro Soares de Almeida 138 - Vila Anglo Brasileira. Cep 05029-030

Yes, they have a big tower above their house in the center of Sao Paolo which can be seen here:
https://www.google.at/maps/place/Tro...6!4d-46.695145

From this tower they are transmitting with a power of 127,2 kW in E3.

Now the interested one can draw a circle with 2,5 km on the link above and will be able to do a search for the antennas on the roof of the building from GusMachado's new home.

My claim is still that this radio station is not causing the problems.....
Attached Thumbnails
RF preventing me from using my home studio-tropical-fm_sao-paolo.jpg   RF preventing me from using my home studio-tropical-fm_saopaolo_building-tower.jpg   RF preventing me from using my home studio-tropical-fm_saopaolo_tower1.jpg   RF preventing me from using my home studio-tropical-fm_saopaolo_tower2.jpg  

Last edited by analogguru; 4th January 2021 at 07:52 AM..
Old 4th January 2021
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
analogguru's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Did you see ? In exact 2,68 km distance south-south-east from "Tropical FM" is another broadcast station: "FM Radio 105".

Maybe this is the new home of GusMachado ?
https://www.google.at/maps/place/Fm+...9!4d-46.683019
Attached Thumbnails
RF preventing me from using my home studio-fm-radio-105_distance.jpg  
Old 4th January 2021
  #23
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Radardoug's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Boy, thats some good sleuthing analogguru!
Old 4th January 2021
  #24
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David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Gotta love Google Maps... or hate it! But whether it's 105 MHz or 107.9 hardly matters: the same countermeasures should work for both.
Old 4th January 2021 | Show parent
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
analogguru's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radardoug ➡️
Boy, thats some good sleuthing analogguru!
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick ➡️
Gotta love Google Maps... or hate it!
Isn't this amazing ?
I am sitting more than 10.000 km away and "Big (Spy) Tech" (= facebook, google & co) are delivering all the infos to my computer immediately.... for free.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick ➡️
.... But whether it's 105 MHz or 107.9 hardly matters: the same countermeasures should work for both.
Not really.....

If it is 107,9 MHz it is ~ 2,68 km away, countermeasure: probably none is needed.
If it is 105 MHz it is ~ 26,8 m away, countermeasure: move to another flat.

Last edited by analogguru; 4th January 2021 at 10:29 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 4th January 2021 | Show parent
  #26
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick ➡️
Gotta love Google Maps... or hate it! But whether it's 105 MHz or 107.9 hardly matters: the same countermeasures should work for both.
Yep. Replace the badly designed (or broken) gear. Like I said, people are over-thinking things...

Alistair
Old 4th January 2021
  #27
Lives for gear
 
emrr's Avatar
 
24 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Maybe I missed it, but I see no mention of proof there’s a good power ground.
Old 6th January 2021 | Show parent
  #28
Gear Head
 
GusMachado's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow ➡️
I think people are over thinking things...



So no noise when not using the Presonus Bluetupe V2 Pre Amp, unusable amounts of noise when you use the Presonus Bluetupe V2 Pre Amp? Seems pretty obvious where the problem lies...



You yourself have already perfectly described which piece of kit is causing the problem. If you Google that preamp with "noise problems" or a similar query you will find plenty of results, including people comparing it directly to other preamps that don't give noise in the exact same setups.

Seems pretty obvious what the solution is...

Alistair
I don't think you're being very helpful, pal. Think with me: the same gear in my previous home didn't caught any RF interference.
Also, after I built the Faraday drawer and put my Focusrite interface inside there alongside with my Pre-amp, It only got any RF when I move the cable in my room.
Ultimately, this is the gear I have. I can't buy anything more expensive than this, so I think that any solution should take this in consideration. Do you have any workarounds to share with me?
Old 6th January 2021 | Show parent
  #29
Gear Head
 
GusMachado's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick ➡️
Just remember that the FM band is centered around about 100 MHz. An appropriate ferrite material is one of Stewart broadband formulations: either Type 27 or 28 will work, with the latter being more easily available. For pre-built cables, the snap-on split cores are most convenient. If you build your own cables, you can save money by using the cylindrical cores. Choose a style that fits your cable diameter and has a large impedance ("Z") at 100 MHz. Put one at each end of the cable, as close to the connector as practical. You can secure it place with tie wraps. I like to cover mine with shrink tubing for cleaner appearance.

Here's a table of the available off-the-shelf Stewart ferrite cores.

David L. Rick

Sadly, I don't think those guys deliver outside the US.
Here in Brazil, I found those
I tried them, but I cannot fell much difference, if any.

Maybe they're not the right one.

I also found this one.

It's a little bit expensive, but if it solves my problem I would buy it. Do you think this is the right one?
Old 6th January 2021 | Show parent
  #30
Gear Head
 
GusMachado's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogguru ➡️
And I bet, that the FM-radio-station on 107,9 Mhz which is located 2,5 km away is NOT your problem. FM (= Frequency-Modulated) signals at such a high frequency will not be demodulated as described. Don't forget that you are in...


Maybe the same signal from the radio station is also broadcasted in AM (Amplitude-Modulation) on mediumwave or shortwave.
The radio I'm getting is this Tropical FM - I know that because I heard their show on my "guitar" haha. And they don't broadcast in AM.

The antennas above my building are actually cellphone antennas. I asked the landlord. I don't know if that makes a difference.
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