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Puzzle: Schoeps MK4, MK22, MK2, Neumann KM184 on acoustic guitar
Old 27th January 2011
  #1
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Puzzle: Schoeps MK4, MK22, MK2, Neumann KM184 on acoustic guitar

In a search for new microphones, a friend of mine HARALD PETERSTORFER recorded few takes on the Roman Engst 24 fret nylon string guitar - in one of the best recording rooms in Austria.

Mics AB, distance around 40cm from bridge and 14th fret; bridge mic comes from below and 14 fret from upside; no eq or whatever - normalised

Now the big guess is - on which mics was each take recorded ?

Schoeps MK4 vs Schoeps MK22 vs Schoeps MK2 vs Neumann KM 184.

Even I myself don't know which is which. Shall we try to guess ?


Take1

Take2

Take3

Take4

The one who will first guess everything correctly will receive a nice prize: one of Harald's CDs
Old 27th January 2011
  #2
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pilvet's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
good luck :)

...from Harald
Old 27th January 2011
  #3
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mljung's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
It looks as if the first is 44,1 and the rest is 48..!?


::
Mads
Old 27th January 2011 | Show parent
  #4
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9sbean's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
1, mk4
2, km184
3, mk2
4, mk22
Old 27th January 2011 | Show parent
  #5
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mljung's Avatar
 
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🎧 15 years
Besides the sample rate thing...

It's very difficult to imagine that file3 was recorded with the same microphone technique as the others, as the stereo-spread is so much narrower.

Anyhow here's my guess:

1:MK2
2:MK4
3:KM184
4:MK22

BTW I preferred 4

::
Mads
Old 27th January 2011 | Show parent
  #6
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🎧 15 years
Yes, exactly, I just wanted to write the same thing - Take 3 sounds quite different from the other 3 (worse = narrower and thinner) while 1,2 and 4 have a kind of consistent sound. My guess is that Take 3 must be KM184 - or something happened during recording it

With the other three, I will still listen a bit ...
Old 27th January 2011 | Show parent
  #7
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🎧 10 years
take 3

please swap l&r at track 3 - I got the project and dont looked for that, sorry...and for sure, it was my mistake bouncing track 1 with 44khz - Ivo now got the 48khz track - you guys are good...with finding this, but with finding the right mic`s...hmmm...will see

I know its very hard, and there are so many things adding to it - room, preamps and so on...but, some of the musical essence from the mics should be in each track...thank you, with best greetings, Harald
Old 27th January 2011 | Show parent
  #8
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Sheikyearbouti's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
1 - MK2
2 - MK4
3 - KM184
4 - MK22

I guess that mljung will get the prize ) Or maybe we both are wrong.

BTW there is something strange with the levels. On file 2 the right channel is about 3dB down than the left and I don't think that this is due to the directionality of the mic (if I have guessed correctly). Although who knows...
As well 3 certainly has a very different narrower stereo image.
I think that I like 1 the most.

Thanks for the comparison.
Old 27th January 2011 | Show parent
  #9
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Sheikyearbouti's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hi Ivo,

I forgot to ask you if the rest of the chain was your Forssell preamps/adc or other?
Although the perspective is way too close for my taste the recording sounds nice.

Thanks
Old 29th January 2011 | Show parent
  #10
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🎧 15 years
I wonder why so few has posted their guess and/or opinion on this.

BUMP

::
Mads
Old 29th January 2011
  #11
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didier.brest's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
1 = MK22
2 = MK4
3 = KM 184
4 = MK2
Old 29th January 2011 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
1=MK2
2=MK4
3=KM184
4=MK22
Same as someone above.
1 was by far my favorite, and I'll be very surprised if it's not the MK2 as it has the most spacious sound.
4 was a close second.
This comparison was fun! Can't wait to find out the answers.

Brian
Old 29th January 2011 | Show parent
  #13
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Sheikyearbouti's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGBrian.M ➡️
1 was by far my favorite, and I'll be very surprised if it's not the MK2 as it has the most spacious sound.
4 was a close second.
Yes, actually 1 and 4 are quite close. When I heard the other tests of Ivo the mk22 impressed me with a very pleasant sound compared to the mk4. I think that if the distance was greater it would have been easier to guess.
Old 30th January 2011 | Show parent
  #14
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
1 is the widest, so imo it must be mk2.
4 is very close to 1, so I think it's mk 22.
Comparing 2 and 3 show the better off-axis from 2, so I think it's MK4. Besides 3 sounds thinner.
But I was not the first with this result!
Thanks for the comparison.
Pieter
Old 31st January 2011 | Show parent
  #15
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest ➡️
1 = MK22
2 = MK4
3 = KM 184
4 = MK2
Idem for me Didier...
And I prefer 4

JMM
Old 31st January 2011 | Show parent
  #16
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheikyearbouti ➡️
Hi Ivo,

I forgot to ask you if the rest of the chain was your Forssell preamps/adc or other?
I have no idea , I was not there and don't know the details about preamp and AD. But maybe we could ask ?
Old 31st January 2011 | Show parent
  #17
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pilvet's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
pre amp´s

All matched pair of mic´s went through two (same) - very linear RME 8 channel preamp´s and are recorded linear with ProTools HD. No EQ or whatever...

thank you best, Harald
Old 31st January 2011 | Show parent
  #18
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Sheikyearbouti's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Pivet, thanks for the info. Was it the OctaMic or the Micstasy?

Ok, errr, I want to vote again giving the same answers! heh
This time for a friend of mine. He is a classical guitarist. In the last 2 years I did two album recordings for him. The first one with a pair of MK4 and the second with MK2. Today I played him the samples and he, just like me, prefers sample 1 to the others and thinks that it is the MK2. Hmm, we'll see!
Old 31st January 2011 | Show parent
  #19
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🎧 10 years
I think...

...it have been octamic´s...

Ok, to make it a bit more easy...the one who thought sample 1 is MK 2 are... ...right...gratulation ...and sure, sample 1 sounds most spherical...for the purist´s it have been MK2h...it was also our favorite track

...it would be for you all much more easy if you would know the sound of my guitar and from my way to play her...

but will help a bit more......in the other 3 mics there will be a big estonishment
Old 31st January 2011 | Show parent
  #20
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mljung's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilvet ➡️
...it have been octamic´s...

Ok, to make it a bit more easy...the one who thought sample 1 is MK 2 are... ...right...gratulation ...and sure, sample 1 sounds most spherical...for the purist´s it have been MK2h...it was also our favorite track

...it would be for you all much more easy if you would know the sound of my guitar and from my way to play her...

but will help a bit more......in the other 3 mics there will be a big estonishment
If you mean surprise, it seems that what most of us thought were KM184 was something different.
So if my first weren't correct, I guess it wasn't I will swap the cardioids and say:

1:MK2
2:KM184
3:MK4
4:MK22

is that better..? If this is the correct result, I reckon there's somethings wrong with the MK4 set

::
Mads
Old 31st January 2011 | Show parent
  #21
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🎧 10 years
please swap l & r by sample3

...I wrote it somewhere before, in my project l & r was swaped - didn´t look before sending to Ivo, sorry for that...

I miss Ivo´s hint...then I say more

thank you all, Harald
Old 31st January 2011 | Show parent
  #22
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilvet ➡️
...I wrote it somewhere before, in my project l & r was swaped - didn´t look before sending to Ivo, sorry for that...

I miss Ivo´s hint...then I say more

thank you all, Harald
I just tried to swap L&R on file 3, but this didn't take away the narrow image, no surprises there.
If nothing is broken, it obviously [or at least it sounds as it is] another stereo setup.

Looking forward to the results

...and hopefully an explanation for file 3

::
Mads
Old 31st January 2011 | Show parent
  #23
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Sheikyearbouti's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung ➡️
I just tried to swap L&R on file 3, but this didn't take away the narrow image, no surprises there.
If nothing is broken, it obviously [or at least it sounds as it is] another stereo setup.

Looking forward to the results

...and hopefully an explanation for file 3

::
Mads
Exactly. It could be that 3 is the MK4 but the difference is so big that I wonder why...

BTW I am surprised that the MK2 is actually an MK2h.
Old 1st February 2011 | Show parent
  #24
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🎧 10 years
sample 3

talked wit Ivo this moment...yes for sure something must be happen with this file...hmm, dont know what...I get the original files from ProTools and put them into a fresh new logic project...it sounds also that way in logic...

the files from Pro Tools are not bounced - they are the original recorded files - and in the studio I also liked sample 3 not so much, but dont have it that way in my memory

in logic I only had to set the pans - file 3 was recorded with swap l & r

so anyway, cant clear that thing...let us please talk about 1 & 2 & 4

thank you
Harald
Old 1st February 2011 | Show parent
  #25
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pilvet's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
ooooh forgot...

...sample 3 is mk4
Old 1st February 2011 | Show parent
  #26
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mljung's Avatar
 
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilvet ➡️
talked wit Ivo this moment...yes for sure something must be happen with this file...hmm, dont know what...I get the original files from ProTools and put them into a fresh new logic project...it sounds also that way in logic...

the files from Pro Tools are not bounced - they are the original recorded files - and in the studio I also liked sample 3 not so much, but dont have it that way in my memory

in logic I only had to set the pans - file 3 was recorded with swap l & r

so anyway, cant clear that thing...let us please talk about 1 & 2 & 4

thank you
Harald
Well if I understand you right Harald, then there is only one option left:

1:MK2
2:MK22
3:MK4
4:KM184

If so, well KM184 did pretty well, didn't it...


::
Mads
Old 1st February 2011 | Show parent
  #27
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pilvet's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Mads Gratulations!!!

...you are great gratulations!!!

may I send you a cd? - please give me your adress via my webpage HARALD PETERSTORFER


and for sure, I find km184 works good with my guitar for ensemble things...and mk2 for solo things...mk22 sounds a bit between km 184 and mk2...for sure of the way its built for - and yes its a great microphon....still want them all but the price difference beteen mk 184 and mk 22 is really much, soo...what du you say?

thank you all for spending time here,
was very interesting!

my best greetings,
Harald
Old 1st February 2011 | Show parent
  #28
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mljung's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilvet ➡️
...you are great gratulations!!!

may I send you a cd? - please give me your adress via my webpage HARALD PETERSTORFER


and for sure, I find km184 works good with my guitar for ensemble things...and mk2 for solo things...mk22 sounds a bit between km 184 and mk2...for sure of the way its built for - and yes its a great microphon....still want them all but the price difference beteen mk 184 and mk 22 is really much, soo...what du you say?

thank you all for spending time here,
was very interesting!

my best greetings,
Harald
It took quite a bit of "bidding"heh. Look forward to the CD and the results of the MK4 mystery...

Best,
Mads
Old 1st February 2011 | Show parent
  #29
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3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
+1 for km184 (and km140). i am not surprised at this testing. after having owned pairs of schoeps cmc64s, DPA 4011s, gefell m300s, akg c481s, km184s and km140s, and a variety of other nice SDCs, i finally settled on the km140s as the most musical of all the SDCs i have used. the actual surprise is the quality:affordablility ratio of the km184s in comparison to other high end mics i have owned.

the 184s must be the most bashed mic on GS (other than the humble akg c1000) for some odd reason, though i remember my early experiences with this mic were less than i had expected - BUT that was before i actually learned to USE the mics properly. once i started understanding mic placement, configuration, and off-axis response, and began putting that understanding to use in a variety of situations, i found that i was able to get consistently outstanding results from them.

btw, i did a direct comparison of km184s and km140s (on flute/piano duo) which i posted here in case you wish to hear the (barely perceiveable) difference between those two mics.
KM184 vs KM140
Old 2nd February 2011 | Show parent
  #30
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🎧 10 years
thank you...

...jnorman, so great to hear that I think a very big part is also at last how the mic fit´s to the instrument and to the player...I´m not always a fan behind the idea a mic must be the most best linear thing...for me I love it when it touches my ear in my style of music (if I use it mostly for my instrument/music, and not as a basic tool for everything)

...as Pat Metheny said after a question: "why do you use such cheap effects sometimes on your sound?" - "oh, I use everything which makes my feeling to my sound better, which brings me closer to my inner picture of sound and music, than it inspires me much for playing, improvising...its like having a very good brush for painting...and its not important for me what anybody says to the tools - as long I dont hurt somebody doing that..."

mic, player, instrument, room, preamp, function of the instrument in the music (solo, ensemble, music style) and much more - I think at least its all a question of ballance...

and for sure, would love to have all that "brushes" at home, to take the right one in the moment and I love to learn more all about that!

best to you, Harald
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