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Mic Shootout BeesNeez / Wagner / Neumann
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #121
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KEYBEEETSSS's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Wowww... Although I didn't make a guess on what was what, I did listen & subscribe; I had 2 & 6 mixed up; Not familiar with ur mics Ben so of course I didn't know them...A couple of the Sound really sweet though...I should add I only listened to the female singer...
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #122
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4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Interesting!

My favorite mics overall according to my notes were 6, 1, and 3, with 2 not far behind. I correctly guessed that 6 was the U47 and liked it the best. Pretty impressive that I liked two of the Bees Knees mics best after the real 47. (Of course it varied depending on the singer, for example on the female voice I prefered the U47 and the M49).

The Wagner and the Arabella were my least favorites in this shootout. But I thought the Arabella sounded great when Astroman sang through it, which just goes to show you how a particular voice can suit a mic.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #123
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Haha wouldn't you know it that I picked my all time favorite mic (M49) as my favorite in the blind test? It's good that I have not been imagining things all these years.heh
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #124
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🎧 15 years
i picked 1 as my favorite overall with 2 and 3 right behind it. I've never heard a m49 before but everyone said i'd love it! weird thing is the U47 was much to dark for me.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #125
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chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire Prod ➑️
Haha wouldn't you know it that I picked my all time favorite mic (M49) as my favorite in the blind test? It's good that I have not been imagining things all these years.heh
Yeah, but 2 was obviously just the best performance.

Just kidding.
heh

Any BeesNeez mics appropriate for drums, other than the obvious U47 sound?
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #126
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
I never listen to such a internet shoot out... pretty useless. IMO

Too many factors to get a washy impression. Especially if mics are close.

E.g. The singer can hit the sweet spot on one mic but not so on the other mic etc.

It's very dangerous to think "Oh, I like the xy mic and then go and think this is the best mic"! This would be ridiculous and a typical amateur mistake.

There's only one way to do such a shoot out, beside that you have to do it in your trusted studio enviroment (monitors, room acoustic etc.), and that is to catch ONE PERFORMANCE which isn't possible with 7 mics. Hence useless...

I know the agrument that most people can't have all those mics in their studio but that is the only way to do.


I keep it with John McBride who once said:


Most vintage mics of the same model do not sound strikingly similar, and good luck finding two that sound exactly alike. There are certain mic's that sound great on acoustic guitar and not on vocals, or that sound great on vocals but not drum overheads. As with all mics, take the time to try mics in different applications and trust your ears. Also listen to your mics with different mic pre's before tossing them aside because they weren't perfect for xyz application.


Change the pre or a other factor and everything sounds completely different.

It's the right chain on the right singer you have to find. Your todays favorite pick on those 7 mics can be the worst for the next time.

A good singer will find the sweetspot regarding distance with his/her ears.
If you have the same distance on all those 7 mics you get the wrong impression and tread some mics unfair. Or better said you fool yourself.

Too many factors although I can understand the fun of such a thread.




Nash


Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #127
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Astromann's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nashvillean ➑️

Change the pre or a other factor and everything sounds completely different.

A good singer will find the sweetspot regarding distance with his/her ears.
If you have the same distance on all those 7 mics you get the wrong impression and tread some mics unfair. Or better said you fool yourself.

Too many factors although I can understand the fun of such a thread.
Nash

Yeah I know what you are saying...but you can still hear a general underlying tone of the mics...despite proximity, performance etc...
However it would be difficult to make a final decision based on any shootout...even the 8 mics at once that Tony Belmont sent a pic off as a pretty ideal shootout scenario...as I said on that one...you would need at 15" mouth to hit the sweet spot on all those mics LOL!!
("Steve Tyler...Mick Jagger with a bit of nip tuck...or nip stretch!!)
So yeah its hard...I was lucky enough to hear and try them in person in an A/B situation (as Ben lives about 2 hours away).
I bought 2 mics very quickly based on that, because they actually capture the whole range of frequencies and sound very organic and full...(like the U47's etc...) .
Otherwise I would be doing what a lot of others are...listening to shootouts and asking questions, and checking other buyers opinions.
If you don't have hands on, that's all you can really do!
Astro
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #128
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromann ➑️
...even the 8 mics at once that Tony Belmont sent a pic off as a pretty ideal shootout scenario......
This is the second time you have referred to me as "sending a pic" or "posting a pic".

To be clear:

I didn't send anyone any "pics" of anything, nor did I post any pics.

I did link to a test, that I was not a part of, but I thought was done quite well (though unscientific).

I did not refer to it as a "pretty ideal shootout" anywhere.

Please stop misquoting me and spreading bad information about things I have either said or done.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #129
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Docmattic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
chill fellas...its only a test...i quite liked it..

Im really thinking about getting a james soon. i hope our dollar doesnt drop more.

astro if you ahve a chance.. could you please please make a quick recording of you doing the count again. That would be awsome. I could compare it to the one you did on the jade then
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #130
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Astromann's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hi
I posted a track of me singing thru the Arabella.
My voice was scratchy on that day (I am not that happy with it) it was just an idea I wanted to get down quickly for a song...so some of the phrasing and the general vocal is pretty darn rough.
BUT Its a good idea of what the Arabella is like when the vocal is a bit scratchy and not necessarily intimate and using proximity...like all the vocals on the shootout in this thread.
On a side note...there is only 1 db of 8k EQ on it...and a tiny bit on the master buss.
I had to use a 320 kbps mp3 as the wave was too big to attach.
Hope this helps.
Best to listen in Wavelab or something like that...the real players and Media players are crap (LOL!!)
https://gearspace.com/board/attachme...ing-bddemo.mp3
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #131
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The Phoenix's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
As far as singing goes I really like the sound of the James. Then the Arabella with K47, and then the Arabella. Hard to tell what would work best for VO on this test but I do like the sounds of your mics.


I just listened to the demo by Astroman. Nice!!!


OK one last thing. There are 7 mics in the shootout. 8 in the picture. Which one got left out?
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #132
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Audiokurt's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I can only agree to Nash.
Even some low budget priced Chinese mic could come out reasonably good in a shootout like this (maybe even in a high ranking), although they would hardly stand against a proven classic mic in real life. Why? Because you can't really judge or compare such a high number of mics this way. Too many variables. Whoever does professional vocal recordings will agree that a good vocal mic is like an instrument: there is lots of interaction between the singer and the microphone so each singer/microphone combination will need to be a bit different to work optimal and show its pontential. In a vocal recording session it takes a while before the singer and the recording engineer work out the optimum sweetspot and the best interaction to let the voice blossom. Only then the potential, quality and charisma of a microphone can be judged. How can you do this in a shootout when the singer gets another mic in front of his face with every take?
Sorry, although I understand what Ben tried to achieve with his shootout (to get some recognition for his mics against the classics), the differences in recordings under this circumstances will be more by chance.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #133
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I would like to know more about the original Neumann mics used here. Which serial numbers are they? Have they been modified, capsule exchanged? There are huge differences in their sound, depending how they were treated over the last 40-50 years.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #134
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
**** why do i always have to pic the expensive ones (both neumanns in this case)?

i'd really have liked to hear a better representation of no 7 the arabella to be able to "judge" it better...
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #135
Led
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Led's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
What I'd love to have in these sort of shootouts is a mix of the backing track to download, so I can hear them in a track. I've used some very expensive mics that sound amazing on cold voice, but sound like ass in a track, or take so much processing to sit they either make a lot more work, or the eq/compression highlights their weaknesses.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #136
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led ➑️
What I'd love to have in these sort of shootouts is a mix of the backing track to download, so I can hear them in a track. I've used some very expensive mics that sound amazing on cold voice, but sound like ass in a track, or take so much processing to sit they either make a lot more work, or the eq/compression highlights their weaknesses.
listened again now. arabella sounds very good just too hard to compare with the others. james could sound very good in a mix. would be really exciting to hear that stuff in a mix. i'd really be interested to hear the wagner in a mix, solo it sounds a little disapointing to me. funny that solo eq is kinda forbidden while solo shootouts rule the world
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #137
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Piedpiper's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that I easily preferred the real 47 and 49. I am surprised that the Wagner didn't fair better for me. I find it hard and harsh in comparison. The Arabella is the interesting one of Ben's mics although still a little hard and harsh in comparison for my taste. Damn good for the money though.

If you wouldn't mind, Ben, what do you think contributes to that harshness the most, power supply, capsule, components? Especially interesting in considering the Wagner vs. the original 47 since they "should" be so similar. And similarly, what do you think contributes the most to the differences between different samples of originals? Were all of your newer mics burned in fully before the shoot out? How does your Max compare with the Arabella. Is it your intention to post comparisons of this sort on you website of all your line?

Thanks again and don't mind the begrudgers.

I sure like that 49...

anyone got a spare? I'd be happy to pick it up in person to save you the shipping.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #138
Gear Maniac
 
Astromann's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont ➑️

This is the second time you have referred to me as "sending a pic" or "posting a pic".
I did link to a test, that I was not a part of, but I thought was done quite well (though unscientific).
Correct...My apologies for that! You sent a link to the samples and the pic was there as well..heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont ➑️
I did not refer to it as a "pretty ideal shootout" anywhere.
Please stop misquoting me and spreading bad information about things I have either said or done
Here are your exact words!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont ➑️
It's the best mic test I have seen on GS in a while, and it is simple to do a test like this:
referring to the one you sent " a link" for with the pic"

I thought by you saying "the best"...you mean its a pretty good or ideal shootout.
I didn't feel that was a misquote, but maybe I was wrong
Cheers heh
Astro
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #139
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asagaai's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
[quote=Audiokurt;3859254 Whoever does professional vocal recordings will agree that a good vocal mic is like an instrument: there is lots of interaction between the singer and the microphone so each singer/microphone combination will need to be a bit different to work optimal and show its pontential. In a vocal recording session it takes a while before the singer and the recording engineer work out the optimum sweetspot and the best interaction to let the voice blossom. Only then the potential, quality and charisma of a microphone can be judged. How can you do this in a shootout when the singer gets another mic in front of his face with every take?.[/quote]


I pretty much agree-but the shootout is still useful. Unfotunately I picked first the M49b,then the U47, then the James, then the Beez Neez capsuled Arabella followed shortly behind by the Jade-followed by the rest.

On these clips although the Arabella (mic7 )had something, I did not prefer (on first set of clips) it that much more than the Jade.

But when I have used my Jade shooting it out against Pearlman Tm1 converted into Arabella on a blues vocalist shooting out-the differences were much greater- and IMO on a big voice where you want some of that huge dynamic to power through- the Arabella Tm1 really shone and had some magic that IMO the Jade could not match- and this difference was not discrenable in the first clips to my ears. The Arabella does that thickening across the spectrum larger than reality thing-and the singer just loved singing to it.

So although in general terms I agree with Audiokurt- these clips are still usefull-shows that these Beez Neez mics are useful crayons that hang in there with the more expensive big boys. I canna afford a U49b or a U47 (bugger)- but that smokey James has me intrigued as a further crayon for my crayon box-pox on you Ben Sneesby for this test - now I am going to have to pony up for a James.

Congrats on making nice mics-even better that you are in Oz so I do not have to deal with AUS customs and import tax

GJ
Newcastle/OZ
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #140
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I don't think so

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiokurt ➑️
I can only agree to Nash.
Even some low budget priced Chinese mic could come out reasonably good in a shootout like this (maybe even in a high ranking), although they would hardly stand against a proven classic mic in real life. Why? Because you can't really judge or compare such a high number of mics this way. Too many variables. Whoever does professional vocal recordings will agree that a good vocal mic is like an instrument: there is lots of interaction between the singer and the microphone so each singer/microphone combination will need to be a bit different to work optimal and show its pontential. In a vocal recording session it takes a while before the singer and the recording engineer work out the optimum sweetspot and the best interaction to let the voice blossom. Only then the potential, quality and charisma of a microphone can be judged. How can you do this in a shootout when the singer gets another mic in front of his face with every take?
Sorry, although I understand what Ben tried to achieve with his shootout (to get some recognition for his mics against the classics), the differences in recordings under this circumstances will be more by chance.
I couldn't disagree more,

I guarentee a chinese mic would have been sniffed out in a second, and if it wasn't, i'd unsubscribe from gear slutz tommorow. But the good news is that I trust the good people of gear slutz and therefore am in a good place to learn a lot of stuff.

Chinese stuff smells.... you can smell it coming from the speaker cone, it's artificial treble, kinda reminds me of a modelling amp vs a point to point vintage amp ;-)

I should surely hope you can hear the difference in these types of tests with chinese mic's.. no offense to the chinese, they make great microphone shells ;-)
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #141
Gear Addict
 
turtlerock's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
hi guys
ben did that shootout in the studio down the hall from me
i had nothing to do with it other then i chucked in my M49 for him to run up
as i mentioned to BEN on the day the studio owner quite oftens borrows my M49 so the other mic in the photo is the studios own red dot ( err older ) m49 which was not used for the shoot out ( dunno why ) .
as you can probably hear my m49 is pretty nice , and has a new tube and the power supply was recently rebuilt , i gave it to wagner and said give it back when its like new . - which he did : )

i had a quick listen to only the girl singing on the day the shoot out was done , and i thought all the mics were sounding in the same ball park . much more then i cared to mention

but the real test of a vocal mic is you record an album with one or three different mics and 6 months down the road when you have forgotten what was what you mix the record.
the vocal that needs the least work to fit in the mix are the winners for me

and yes there is a reason i have a bunch of classic neumanns in my cupboard

for me its seems simple if ben starts making mics that i like the look of , maybe i will be persuaded to join his club


btw the chain was a pristine neve melbourne desk ( 3115 module and the same actual mic pre on all mics via a patch bay ) into apogee converters into HD tools

oh yes i feel compelled to state that the wagner
used was not in fact a from a "production run" of his fabulous mike but a set (kit) of parts supplied to the studio and put together by them when the wagner 47 was in prototype stages and it has a neumann k47 capsule not the production m7 wagner remake !


i hope that helps
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #142
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromann ➑️
I thought by you saying "the best"...you mean its a pretty good or ideal shootout.
I didn't feel that was a misquote, but maybe I was wrong
Cheers heh
Astro
I stand by everything I have said 1000%.

The test you keep referring to is the best mic test I have seen done on GS... that is all. Most tests I have seen on the forum are horrible and have no worth whatsoever.

I also said the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont ➑️
I don't really want to continue to debate the reasons for doing proper tests in this thread. I've said all there is to say... If anyone comes up with any other rebuttals, just drop me a PM/ email, so the thread can get somewhat back on track. Have a nice night folks.
I feel like this topic has been enough of a distraction and don't think it's constructive to discuss it further....
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #143
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mics's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum ➑️
I would like to know more about the original Neumann mics used here. Which serial numbers are they? Have they been modified, capsule exchanged? There are huge differences in their sound, depending how they were treated over the last 40-50 years.
The neumann microphones used in this test are for want of better words, perfect. they are and have been maintained by Gunter Wagner. the M49 Belong to Turtlerock Mastering Rick Oneil,the U47 belongs to one of the worlds best microphone collections in a studio that is nothing short of impeccable. i have no afilliation with the studio at all and hired them because of this reason. The mics are both aesthetically and operationally perfect.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #144
Gear Addict
 
turtlerock's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mics ➑️
The neumann microphones used in this test are for want of better words, perfect. they are and have been maintained by Gunter Wagner. the M49 Belong to Turtlerock Mastering Rick Oneil,the U47 belongs to one of the worlds best microphone collections in a studio that is nothing short of impeccable. i have no afilliation with the studio at all and hired them because of this reason. The mics are both aesthetically and operationally perfect.

i am happy to confirm this and to move the conversation away from the idea that the neumanns were in anyway anything but pristine
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #145
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Astromann's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper ➑️
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that I easily preferred the real 47 and 49. I am surprised that the Wagner didn't fair better for me. I find it hard and harsh in comparison. The Arabella is the interesting one of Ben's mics although still a little hard and harsh in comparison for my taste. Damn good for the money though.
I thought the Arabella in that test did not sound as good as I have heard (and used it) in real life...I cant hear any harshness in it...and I have used it a fair bit.
I am a nut on this too...I have gone thru so many electronics and pups in my guitars...spraying them in nitro, re wiring them, using pups from Bareknuckles to Lollars to Antiquities (all scatter wound) to get the ideal tone that is organic yet vibrant. All my amps are point to point tube...hand wired...Obsessive stuff!
The Arabella sounds very smooth thru all the frequencies...... to my ears anyway.
No test is ideal...when I heard the Arabella as compared to the James and Jade in my studio...I picked the Arabella because of the above reasons.
But I realize taste and opinions are personal...it's hard to get 2 people to agree on anything ..Life is full of variables LOL!!

But harsh...is a word I would use with just about any chinese capsule microphone (and there are many...in very nice shells and cases too).
Cheers
Astro
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #146
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
interested to comparison between james and arabella back to back. james sounded better in shootout and better priced. arabella sounded a bit thin and slightly harsh.

although arabella mic sounds very nice when i heard on astromann song "standing" demo on here. so i dont know?
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #147
Gear Maniac
 
Astromann's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorch Trakz ➑️
arabella did sound bit thin and slightly harsh.

although arabella mic sounds very nice when i heard on astromann song "standing" demo on here. so i dont know?
Yeah believe me...the Arabella's tone is as thin as it gets on "Standing" because as I mentioned I was a bit scratchy (vocally) on that and its reasonably high.
In mid range and lower stuff thats more intimate and smooth... it is really nice.
I agree it did not sound as good in the shootout...I don't know why, I wasn't there ...but some people picked it as a favorite.
No shootout is totally perfect or final.
But...I think the main point being missed by some tho is...if you stuck a Chinese...or even a Chinese Capsule with US electronics mic in the shootout...you would hear it!
I did nothing special on the song "standing" other than automate a couple of delays and reverbs on certain words...so yeah, its pretty much in the raw, that's what the Arabella actually sounds like.
Astro
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #148
Gear Nut
 
SteveBoker's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The two performances that stood out as being different were both on 7. But I have to say that I liked the two Arabellas the least. Overall, I found the M49 and James to be surprisingly similar. The Wagner and the Jade also seemed similar to me.

As a recent James buyer, I'm glad to hear it stacked up pretty well for my ears. I'm certainly happy with it in person. It sounds a lot more present through a Portico 5012 than what it sounded on these takes. What was the chain?

Kudos to Ben for an entertaining thread.


Critics talk about art. Artists talk about brushes.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #149
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Piedpiper's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromann ➑️
But harsh...is a word I would use with just about any chinese capsule microphone (and there are many...in very nice shells and cases too).Astro
I have no doubt that any of Ben's mics would embarrass the typical Chinese fodder. Their deficiencies show up only in comparison to the original 49 and 47 in this shootout. I actually mostly preferred the Arabellas to the Wagner. I'm not so crazy about the James and, especially, the Jade, but that's me, both harsher and harder than the Arabella. I'm certain they have their place, though.

...and thanks for sharing your passion. I can relate.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #150
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
As just stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlerock ➑️
the chain was a pristine neve melbourne desk ( 3115 module and the same actual mic pre on all mics via a patch bay ) into apogee converters into HD tools
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