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Mic Shootout BeesNeez / Wagner / Neumann
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #61
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🎧 15 years
funny shootout!

after a quick listen my feeling is i like no. 2 the best, no.6 is also nice

maybe a shootout with all mics at the same time is not the scientifically best (especially if there's too many of them) but in any case it's better than different takes. i don't know if anyone mentioned this before, i was too lazy to read through the whole thread, but both of the male performances of no. 7 where the artist either sings another vocal line or in another key are so far away from the other performances that it's impossible to compare no. 7 to the rest.

i too think that same performances are essential to really judge gear. but nonetheless "nonscientific" shootouts can be fun too!

edit: went through the whole thread again, there ARE people who noticed the difference and said they can't judge 7 cos it's too different, but there are also people who liked or even preferred 7!
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #62
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27 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
After my first listning, I take nr 4 as the best sounding one. I realy like "tests" like this, but they should be dubble blind. Thanks any way!
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #63
Gear Maniac
 
Astromann's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asagaai ➡️
Come on Astro what is 2 or 3 inches between friendsheh.

In that test I did with a professional singer between a Jade and a Pearlman TM1 modified into an Arabella- I placed 1 mike above the other carefully aligning capsules and ran the mikes through identical chains and recorded through both at the same time. Even though I told the singer to place her voice at the point between where the tips of the mikes met- there is no guarantees that the singer did not deviate between the 2 capsules causing differences as to proximity between the 2 mikes.
Sorry Mate ( ha ha)...I was referring to the pic of the Nordic and Sony mics (8 mics in all)...I don't think it's the test you are referring too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by asagaai ➡️
Another way would be to re-amp a recorded vocal using a speaker and have a specific distance between speaker and capsule of the mike and use same settings for all mikes. The problem with this is that this is not pure because of the original recording artifacts and it is a bit mechanical in that the vocalist is not playing the mike as an instrument to demonstate the mikes abilities.
Yeah agreed!! However as you said the audio file itself would add its own color to the sound...but at least the proximity etc...could be set so its close to perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asagaai ➡️
Seems all test regimes involving 7 mikes plus have weaknesses/strengths.
Exactly


Quote:
Originally Posted by asagaai ➡️
But one thing is for sure-when a new kid on the block arrives and starts making mikes the calibre of Jade, James and Arabella for a fraction of the cost of the very top big boys that is right in the sonic territory of the very big boys like Neumann/Wagner/- I would expect a directly proportional correlation between objections regarding testing protocols to the level of disquiet being experienced by manufacturers/dealers whose markets are in competition.
Couldn't agree more...you know if something is weak I will speak solidly against it...I don't care if I own it or not, if it's not good I will sell it as soon as I hear something better...I guess that what a gear slut is!
But the question is "do some of the posts that are pretty negative towards these mics and the testing have another agenda"?
I am not saying they do...but it's a thought!
Cheers
Astro
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #64
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Guys, I have it: In all the different samples there is only one and the same microphone used. THAT would be clever...
I'm waiting for that test. Someone please do it, either the way it was done here or the other way with 8 times the same mic positioned as close together as possible.
Than have everyone judge the differences with mic identities hidden and in the end reveal the secret. Ha, that would be fun and the end to all this nonsense here.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #65
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Astromann's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by futur2 ➡️
funny shootout!

I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, i was too lazy to read through the whole thread, but both of the male performances of no. 7 where the artist either sings another vocal line or in another key are so far away from the other performances that it's impossible to compare no. 7 to the rest.

edit: went through the whole thread again, there ARE people who noticed the difference and said they can't judge 7 cos it's too different, but there are also people who liked or even preferred 7!
Yeah I agree about no 7, that sounds a bit further away...and the performance was definitely different on that particular one.
Cheers
Astro
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #66
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World Studios's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Give Ben a break! I do agree, it would have been better still with all mics up at the same time and one single performance, but you are still able to tell the difference between the mics this way and it adds to the challenge, if anything! :-)

I say this thread belongs in the gear shootout section. ...or move it to "new stuff"...

I love being in direct contact with a one man mic factory like Ben, Dave and others and anyone who dares put his mics up against these big dogs deserves respect. It is a blind test. It might turn out that he is plugging the Wagner mic in the end, if everyone prefers it....

Peace,
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #67
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World Studios's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum ➡️
Guys, I have it: In all the different samples there is only one and the same microphone used. THAT would be clever...
I'm waiting for that test. Someone please do it, either the way it was done here or the other way with 8 times the same mic positioned as close together as possible.
Than have everyone judge the differences with mic identities hidden and in the end reveal the secret. Ha, that would be fun and the end to all this nonsense here.
This was done to some small degree in the NU47 and 7 other mics test. There was a dupe-licate file in there, the same mic twice. I noticed, phase reversed and nulled them out, but some dudes liked one of them and disliked the other one!!!
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #68
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Astromann's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum ➡️
When it comes to the subtleties of comparing related microphones that are relatively close in their sonic properties like in this shootout, the test method is completely useless or misleading.
If a $850 or a $1350 mic is quote "relatively close in their sonic properties" to a $5,000 to $10,000 and more microphone...regardless of subtleties...then I would buy that mic right then and there ...end of story!
That in itself is something of a feat....practically all mics up to $2,500 and more DON'T have anywhere near the sonic properties of U47, M49 or a U47W when you hear them in the flesh.
I can understand you being skeptical...everyone tries to say their USA produced chinese capsule mic sounds like a 49 or 47 so they can charge $2,000 for them...but they dont!!!
Your best bet is to try one in the flesh yourself...like I did!
Then you will get a clear idea of why these mics actually do compare to Neumann U47.
Regardless of how they sound (full and rich with no crappy tinny frequencies, like so many mics that fall apart as soon as you Eq them heavily or compress them heavily).
Anyway I have pulled both mine apart and studied them and they...
1. Don't have cheap electronics
2. Don't have a low grade or mismatched transformer
3. Don't have a chinese mass produced capsule!
Thye sound great, the guts of them is great!!
Who's complaining...it's money well spent as far as I am concerned!
Cheers
Astro
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #69
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by World Studios ➡️
Give Ben a break! I do agree, it would have been better still with all mics up at the same time and one single performance, but you are still able to tell the difference between the mics this way and it adds to the challenge, if anything! :-)
you are right. props to ben!

Quote:
Originally Posted by World Studios ➡️
This was done to some small degree in the NU47 and 7 other mics test. There was a dupe-licate file in there, the same mic twice. I noticed, phase reversed and nulled them out, but some dudes liked one of them and disliked the other one!!!
heh but it takes no trapping to proof that GS is a bunch of deaf dogs

Quote:
Originally Posted by asagaai ➡️
Another way would be to re-amp a recorded vocal using a speaker and have a specific distance between speaker and capsule of the mike and use same settings for all mikes. The problem with this is that this is not pure because of the original recording artifacts and it is a bit mechanical in that the vocalist is not playing the mike as an instrument to demonstate the mikes abilities.
that's the only way to do it "scientifically" but needs a lot of effort and care to be done right.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #70
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blaugruen7's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
in all of these examples the mic2 and mic 1 have some bodyness to them which i prefer to the others.
because of this i am guessing it comes from the mic, not the take...
very curious...
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #71
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TheSweetener's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Please give us the results before the thread is deleted
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #72
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mappee's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I'd be curious to know which mic each singer liked the best. Singers respond to microphones that flatter their voices(also known as inspiration)and will in the long run give best performance.
When a microphone and singer bond it is foolish for the engineer to break the harmonious relationship.

So Ben please state which mic felt right to you, and get that info from the other singers as well. To me most useful.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #73
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Another much more relevant test:
Someone let the same singer sing in one microphone but he/she monitors himself with different headphones and different headphone levels.

Now you would be surprised about the differences in sound that makes!
(crosstalk aside)

You don't even need different headphones, just do several runs with different EQ in the cans, you will be very surprised!
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #74
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Absolutely... I wonder if straight-out engineers (who don't perform/sing with any seriousness) might find it harder to relate to this... the fact that the equipment used, and the studio (and acoustics) influence the performance and play a major part in attempting to capture "that perfect take".

Many engineers without a performance background seem to look at that as being purely the performer's responsibility to "deliver".
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #75
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3rdeyeKnight's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
results please.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #76
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🎧 10 years
Exclamation

i like 1 , 6 and 7
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #77
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NotVeryLoud's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
#6
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #78
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
#6 for me - incredible sense of similarily in all of them - most notably increases or decreases in apparant room tone (obviousy picked up to various degrees by the mics)

I agree - people should mostly relax - this is all just fun.

Let's go make music.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #79
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James Lugo's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
They were all very useful, some more 3D and richer then others.

1, 2, 6, 7 were favs.

I didn't care for 7 as much on the girl but it was cooler for the male. 1,2, and 6 seemed consistant.



On a side note, I hear Tony on his opinion about it not being scientific, we've gone down this road before and I respect him and his feelings. For me this shootout is very good and consistant and I can hear the differences in the mics clearly. To me a 47 sounds like a 47, proximity and a slightly higher or lower spl doesn't change that all that much, in my opinion. That's just my opinion.

As far as Tony's comments on Ben doing the shootout, I do think for fairness of the shootout it shouldn't be the manufacturer doing the shootout, at best people could think in the back of their minds, 'conflict of interest'. It's like a dad judging a talent show that his son is in. It's a no-go in the real world. This is not to cast any dispersions on Ben, Ben has always been a stand up and honest guy toward me and on my forum but I do know how this could be taken by people and ultimately injure the credibility of the shootout, which would be a shame because I think he did a fantastic job.
Old 26th January 2009
  #80
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Zuewi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mics ➡️
Hi All;

Last Friday after much organising, I was able to hire out a great studio and get busy for the morning with some great mics.

The mission for the morning (and half of the afternoon) was for each of the 3 vocalists to get in front of each of the 7 microphones.

The line up was;

Neumann U47
Wagner U47W
Neumann M49b
BeesNeez Arabella
BeesNeez Jade
BeesNeez James
BeesNeez Arabella with original Neumann K47 Capsule.

I will post the wav files but i want you to name which mic is which and also if you want, let us all know which mic is your favourite for each artist.

Here's a picture of the line up.

I think i'll name it and frame it "In Good Company"

Attachment 108033

Cheers
Can you tell us the chain of recording please? Those files sound heavily colored i can't imagine that all mics have kinda the same base sound...
What acoustic panels you using?
I think clip 6 deals kinda best with the hights, some others have pritty harsh high althrou the clips sounds very damped on hights already...what again leaves me wondering on the recording setup....!
Yeah and clip 7, why has it such a obvious different performence?

Please write next time that you deal with that gear at the the beginning if possible...
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #81
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
I liked 6,7 and 1. I dare to guess: 6:u47, 7:m49 and 1:some modern alternative, wunder perhaps? although I havn´t used any of them
Many thanks for the test!
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #82
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Zuewi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo ➡️
it shouldn't be the manufacturer doing the shootout... It's like a dad judging a talent show that his son is in. It's a no-go in the real world.
Well said James
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #83
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World Studios's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Having listened carefully now to the files on my ATC's, I find that nr 2 sounds very warm and nice for singer L, nr5 if you want brighter more "modern" sound...

Nr 5 sounds the best to me on TJ

and nr 6 on Ben.

There you have it! :-)
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #84
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World Studios's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuewi ➡️
Well said James
Not so well said. Ben is not the judge here. You are. However, there is room for Ben to fiddle the takes is such a way that his mics come out sounding the best, by moving the singer, absorbers or whatever. Since everyone seems to have different opinions on which mics sound the best so far, I dare say he did not succeed in his alledged evil plot against trusty gearslutz.

What he has succeeded in, is proving to me the point that his mics stand up to the challenge and that for some, it is really not worth paying a lot more for some of these mics, from a pure listeners view. A real u47 will probably still be a good investment in the long run, from a financial point of view.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #85
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo ➡️
They were all very useful, some more 3D and richer then others.

1, 2, 6, 7 were favs.

I didn't care for 7 as much on the girl but it was cooler for the male. 1,2, and 6 seemed consistant.



On a side note, I hear Tony on his opinion about it not being scientific, we've gone down this road before and I respect him and his feelings. For me this shootout is very good and consistant and I can hear the differences in the mics clearly. To me a 47 sounds like a 47, proximity and a slightly higher or lower spl doesn't change that all that much, in my opinion. That's just my opinion.
James made a very good point here again.... ""For me this shootout is very good and consistant and I can hear the differences in the mics clearly.""
This was my sentaments exactly earlier in a post. It's very easy to determin the differences in a mic even if there was a 1 or 2 inch difference in proximity... either way, you can clearly hear it's quality.
Had there been a mic in their with a chinese capsule, i'd of picked it in a second flat, but from the sounds of things, all those clips were beautiful, some I prefer to others, but none the less all sonically within a couple percent of each other

Please can we get back to the purpose of this 'THREAD'.... and lets get back to rating our favorite takes!! this debate was over 1 post from Tony, but we have the right to move on and continue with rating our opinions on the 'audio clips' this is a audio forum, not a political one, lets move it along.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #86
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HOTC's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Didnt have time to check out the shootout in full
But all I can say is Ben is great at his craft,
My mic he modded for me arrived today and it is beautiful...exactually what i asked him..cuts thru any mix i threw at it and stacking vocals sits great
Its in good company with my gefells,akgs,oktavas etc
So I think its great theres guys like Ben out there with so much passion and talent....and hes a super cool guy and helpful
The mic can hold its own against all the high end mics I have
Great mic at a great price
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #87
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jjblair's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm out of town, and the headphones I have don't tell me enough detailed information. I do know that mic #4 has serious rumble going on. I can't tell though if it's coupling to the floor vibrations or elctronic.
Old 26th January 2009
  #88
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nukmusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mics ➡️
Hi All;

Last Friday after much organising, I was able to hire out a great studio and get busy for the morning with some great mics.

The mission for the morning (and half of the afternoon) was for each of the 3 vocalists to get in front of each of the 7 microphones.

The line up was;

Neumann U47
Wagner U47W
Neumann M49b
BeesNeez Arabella
BeesNeez Jade
BeesNeez James
BeesNeez Arabella with original Neumann K47 Capsule.

I will post the wav files but i want you to name which mic is which and also if you want, let us all know which mic is your favourite for each artist.

Here's a picture of the line up.

I think i'll name it and frame it "In Good Company"

Attachment 108033

Cheers
cool... but just a few questions..

Since you've went through all the trouble I'm sure you will post pics of the shootout? what other engineers were there?

I went to your website and there wasn't much info on your mics.
any detailed data, specs, and pics?
What are the prices and what dealers carry them?

thanks
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #89
Gear Maniac
 
Astromann's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo ➡️
For me this shootout is very good and consistant and I can hear the differences in the mics clearly. To me a 47 sounds like a 47, proximity and a slightly higher or lower spl doesn't change that all that much, in my opinion. That's just my opinion.
Yes I agree totally, you can hear the differences of the general underlying tone of each mic. Thats whats important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo ➡️
It's like a dad judging a talent show that his son is in. It's a no-go in the real world. This is not to cast any dispersions on Ben, Ben has always been a stand up and honest guy toward me and on my forum but I do know how this could be taken by people and ultimately injure the credibility of the shootout, which would be a shame because I think he did a fantastic job.
Yes I can see the point here too.
You somehow manage to put it in a more acceptable manner than Tony, his approach is at least a little bit abrasive.
Generally judges can be biased it's true, however Ben is not judging here...everybody else is..and there were other people at the session that were not associated with Ben or his mics...so if he positioned his mics to favor his own creations, we would hear about it believe me.
On a side note I was present at a couple of his earlier shootouts and he definitely did nothing to favor his mics...all setting, and positions were equal.
Cheers
Astro
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #90
Lives for gear
 
Empire Prod's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Having one performance doesn't help with vocal shootouts all that much when it comes to mics. All the mics will have different positions relative to the singer and that is what we will most likely hear. The mics can't all occupy the same space and time. Give me a break. The test is fine for these purposes.
Closed

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