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Could the Synthex see a return? Etusivu - Soundion Oy (Finland)
Old 1st May 2015 | Show parent
  #391
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GeorgeHayduke's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yea, I dunno about that one either, whether it would be the CS-80 or whatever, I think there are several contenders depending on personal tastes.
Old 1st May 2015 | Show parent
  #392
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by reno ➡️
[*]People unfamiliar with IndieGogo/Kickstarter casting doubt on the very concept of crowdfunding
(hint : it's enabled countless great projects that couldn't have been realized otherwise. It's been the standard way of gauging interest/raising money for niche/geeky endeavours for nearly 5 years.)
How many of them are $3000 though? I've thrown down for a number of crowdfunding projects, but thanks for equating skepticism with inexperience. The vast majority of the ones I've gotten in on have failed to deliver on time, at all, or have changed scope considerably. The vast majority of them have also had some kind of working prototype.

Last edited by majorairbro; 1st May 2015 at 01:03 PM.. Reason: clarification
Old 1st May 2015
  #393
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patrickdafunk's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I think it's time folks... Yamaha should step out of the shadows and re-issue the CS-80, no questions asked. Show em Yamadingdong!
Old 1st May 2015 | Show parent
  #394
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Hodgson ➡️
Yes, but if the suspicions in my comments are groundless (and they really should be if these guys are as competent as we would hope they are), then all GEM have to do is respond (maybe not to me personally, but I'm sure others must be voicing these doubts to them) with some real information and then not only will they reassure everyone scared by my comments, but also many of those who were already scared before I or anybody else said anything, and on top of that if I am convinced I was wrong I will happily admit to it and evangelise this project as much as I can.
I have to give you that : the smart thing for them to do would be to come over here and say something to put out the fire. Again, this is a niche product and GS is one of a handful of places where their target customers can be reached.

However Jon, would you rather them be competent at communication, or competent at shipping working synths ? And, if it does turn out that only the former was a real issue, do you really want this to be what killed a dream project, not lack of demand or feasability ? And have actively contributed to it here ?

Let me tell you a little story : I was in your shoes 10-11 years ago, on the Access Virus mailing list IIRC, demanding answers about the outrageously delayed Virus TI project. As months passed, words like "vaporware" and even rumors of the company's demise became more prevalent in the conversation.
As a young software engineer with fresh experience in USB devices, I felt entitled to explain to "the rest of us" what the challenges could be: I had elaborate ideas on how USB1.1 was going to be a headache for the project, etc.
And since the powers that be would stay mum, I was free to fill the space and become its annoying know-it-all.

What drove me to do this ? Well, for one thing I really wanted that synth and was impatient, but there was also the same reason that probably also makes you post here on average more than once a day, every single day for the past 6 years, Jon : for some of us it feels really good to spread our knowledge and look authoritative in return

And you know what happened next of course : I didn't really know it all.
I did know my stuff about USB, manufacturing, engineering.
But I could have even been a 100x better engineer than their guys, I simply wasn't in their shoes nor did I have the information they had, but I still chose to go with what I had and speculate endlessly on the worst that could happen.

Every corporate culture is different and Access in that case decided never to respond with anything more than "Stay tuned". Back when they had a beta program and some product information leaked, they immediately terminated it. That's how they are. This doesn't sound like a great stance in the era of crowdfunding, true, but you can't draw conclusions like "they're not answering, they must be doomed" solely based on that.

Eventually the project went on to have the success we all know, and in hindsight I'm happy it didn't need to be crowdfunded because surely the tone of many people on the mailing list, and chiefly myself, could have jeopardized it. Learnt my lesson.

Again, what if the project ends up failing not because of unfeasability or lack of a market at all, but because it turned out that in such a niche market, forum FUD was a huge deterrent to potential buyers after all, and they had decided to dedicate their resources at solving engineering/logistics problems instead ? Is that fair ?

Sure, it is first and foremost their crucial duty as a business to address customers' concerns, especially as detailed as yours Jon (well, if you were actually a customer..), but still : do you really want responsibility in having pushed a little too far the "FUD campaign that killed a dream project" ? Oh sure you'd feel important, but personally I'd rather not feel important like that.

And here's a candid question : you say you've known Paul Wiffen on & off and work with people who know him. Why the heck haven't you tried to find out more through your connections yet ? Or is speculation here less risky and more entertaining to you ?

You are bringing great technical insights, they are very welcome, valuable and interesting to read. I've bookmarked a few !
But I also don't like that you're using that knowledge and the trust you earn for it to push people off the cliff by going to conclusions you clearly don't have enough information to make.
Old 1st May 2015 | Show parent
  #395
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by reno ➡️
I have to give you that : the smart thing for them to do would be to come over here and say something to put out the fire. Again, this is a niche product and GS is one of a handful of places where their target customers can be reached.
One which you might hope they know about. They've also not said a word on their Facebook page since the 19th.
Quote:
However Jon, would you rather them be competent at communication, or competent at shipping working synths ? And, if it does turn out that only the former was a real issue, do you really want this to be what killed a dream project, not lack of demand or feasability ? And have actively contributed to it here ?
But it's what little communication they HAVE made which caused me to doubt them. As I said, I started off as a believer, because as far as I'm concerned you don't take orders on a finished product, with a tentative delivery date in 8 months time, unless you've at least got the key parts of the design established (which in this case would be the voice cards at the very least). But from what they've said, it seems they haven't. You might get Curtis chips, you might not.... now in itself that may not be a big deal to you, it's not really to me, but don't you think they should have established that already, not least because designing a discrete replacement is not an overnight task and is probably something that should be done before projecting a delivery date?

There are other bits and pieces which lead me to suspect that they haven't done what I would personally consider due dilligence in this case. The fact that if they'd done it then presenting it would seem to be an obvious way for them to have made the project seem more appealing (video of a prototype or at least a sound example of a functioning voice card for example) doesn't lessen that suspicion.

It's a suspicion, but I've given my reasons for it. Argue with my reasoning by all means.

Quote:
What drove me to do this ? Well, for one thing I really wanted that synth and was impatient, but there was also the same reason that probably also makes you post here on average more than once a day, every single day for the past 6 years, Jon : for some of us it feels really good to spread our knowledge and look authoritative in return
Ooo, a hint of ad-hominem there!

I post a lot in a fairly small number of threads, that's how I am, I get into discussions. So yes, it works out on average that I've posted every day, but it's not the case.

As for why I do it, sometimes it's to try to help people, other times it's just discussion. You come out and say

Quote:
the friggin' founder of Genelec (Genelec !), AES member, 100 scientific papers under his belt.
And I think, well on the face of it you seem to have a point, let's look at that (partly because I am just inquisitive) and I find out that genelec don't consider him a founder and only two papers have been for the AES and they've both been on digital and on top of that his current company (which he's been with for 27 years) doesn't even manufacture anything.

As for the AES membership, I've got one of those too (well I did, I really should resubscribe, it lapsed when my credit card expired).

So I find out that your point isn't really isn't as strong as you thought it was, I'm sorry if you don't like that. It doesn't make me think I'm an authority... I just took the time to look up the information.
Quote:
Every corporate culture is different and Access in that case decided never to respond with anything more than "Stay tuned". Back when they had a beta program and some product information leaked, they immediately terminated it. That's how they are. This doesn't sound like a great stance in the era of crowdfunding, true, but you can't draw conclusions like "they're not answering, they must be doomed" solely based on that.
I haven't said they're doomed, I've pointed out areas of concern in what they have and haven't said.

Quote:
Again, what if the project ends up failing not because of unfeasability or lack of a market at all, but because it turned out that in such a niche market, forum FUD was a huge deterrent to potential buyers after all, and they had decided to dedicate their resources at solving engineering/logistics problems instead ? Is that fair ?
They've stalled at 25%, do you really think MY comments have put 75% of the buyers off, or do you think it's possibly the fact that they haven't done the job they needed to do?
Quote:
Sure, it is first and foremost their crucial duty as a business to address customers' concerns, especially as detailed as yours Jon (well, if you were actually a customer..), but still : do you really want responsibility in having pushed a little too far the "FUD campaign that killed a dream project" ? Oh sure you'd feel important, but personally I'd rather not feel important like that.
And what if my suspicions are not only correct, but a worst case scenario ensues. Development time and costs spiral, and the product never arrives but there's no money left in the coffers to refund people? Or it arrives and so many people want to return it that they just can't refund them all as promised?

You've been encouraging others to put their money in, and criticising me for saying things that might put people off it. How would you feel then?

I'm NOT saying this is what will happen, I'm pointing out that if I run a risk of culpability for an unfortunate outcome, so do you, people living in glass houses and all that...

Quote:
And here's a candid question : you say you've known Paul Wiffen on & off and work with people who know him. Why the heck haven't you tried to find out more through your connections yet ? Or is speculation here less risky and more entertaining to you ?
It's been a while since I had any contact with him, so I'd need to go through a few connections, but I have considered it, Ive been a tad busy but I 'll look into it, no promises though.

Quote:
But I also don't like that you're using that knowledge and the trust you earn for it to push people off the cliff by going to conclusions you clearly don't have enough information to make.
You will notice that I always give my reasoning as well as my "conclusions" (actually mostly suspicions and pretty clearly expressed as such), I make no claims of being authoritative on the matter and give others the opportunity to judge whether they think my reasoning is good or to consider what I may have missed.

Last edited by Jon Hodgson; 1st May 2015 at 03:30 PM..
Old 1st May 2015 | Show parent
  #396
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🎧 10 years
What puzzles me is that 37 people have put several thousand dollars into a promise and yet there's two Synthex's sat on Ebay right now that have been relisted time and time again.

Makes me wonder just how much some folk really want one.
Old 1st May 2015 | Show parent
  #397
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by skanker ➡️
What puzzles me is that 37 people have put several thousand dollars into a promise and yet there's two Synthex's sat on Ebay right now that have been relisted time and time again.

Makes me wonder just how much some folk really want one.
Big difference between a 30 year old $9000 synth and a brand new $3000 synth with a warranty. I want a Jupiter 8 really badly but I'm not going to buy a vintage one with no safety net.
Old 1st May 2015 | Show parent
  #398
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyborgssc ➡️
Big difference between a 30 year old $9000 synth and a brand new $3000 synth with a warranty. I want a Jupiter 8 really badly but I'm not going to buy a vintage one with no safety net.
This project is not a $3000 dollar outlay. You have tax and shipping on top of this so more like $4k+. a hell of a lot for a cloned synth imo.
And that is only if bought via this funding system the thread is talking about.
A retail price if this does happen will be closer to $6000.

My point was that committing to buy a "promise" for half the cost of the real thing is insane. The real thing is the real deal and as far as warranty goes, i don't understand that comment. If something fails it fails and needs fixing weather that be 50, 25 or 5 years old.

Thats what service engineers are for!
Old 1st May 2015
  #399
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
I can't argue with any of your points. Both options are risky at this point - less money with a risk of never getting a synth or more money for guaranteed delivery but potential of immediate service problems. I'd say most people are sitting on the sidelines waiting to see what happens. I don't have a horse in the race either way.

I will say the Flexible Funding thing is a complete PR disaster for them. That makes the whole thing smell like a scam, whether it is or not. I know it's been hashed to death already, no need to point out that they claim money will be returned.
Old 1st May 2015 | Show parent
  #400
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyborgssc ➡️
I will say the Flexible Funding thing is a complete PR disaster for them. That makes the whole thing smell like a scam, whether it is or not. I know it's been hashed to death already, no need to point out that they claim money will be returned.
On the general subject of indiegogo, rather than this specific campaign, I find the very existence of a flexible funding option odd and a little dubious.

I'll give Soundion the benefit of the doubt and assume they wound up in this position through user error or technical fault (these things happen). But in a more general case, perhaps someone can think of an alternate scenario, but it seems to be that the only two kinds of people who would intentionally choose that are option, having read through the descriptions (as they should), are idiots or scammers.

If the campaigner has set the target at the minimum amount they need to make a go of the project (which is really what that target is for, campaigns regularly exceed the target substantially, so it's in no way a ceiling). Then if they don't reach it, then by their own reckoning they can't make a go of the project, even less so because indiegogo take an extra 4% off the top before giving the money to them so what do they think they're going to do with their investor's money? send them half a product? A commemorative T-shirt? ... well I guess that might be better than nothing... "I invested in a nib-nob but all they gave me was this lousy T-shirt".

The fact that indiegogo take an extra 4% if the target isn't reached also strikes me as rather questionable, they say it's as an incentive to the campaigner to push their campaign as hard as they can.

Just seems odd all round to me.
Old 2nd May 2015
  #401
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Hi , i am Umberto from Modena (Italy) , for a small number of experts, it was not even a novelty that Mario Maggi (the designer of Sinthex), between a project and the other for the most diverse branches of industry, was putting their hands at a general revamping of its prestigious polyphonic analog to propose then to vast number of electronic musicians. In practice, this is not a clone but a totally new design utilizing advanced and powerful technologies, while maintaining the character and peculiarities of the original version.
Nothing to do with the Finnish project.
Mario today decided to disclose a first set of features of the new project, which could have lead times and marketing much shorter than you might think.

to this address : Audio Central Magazine » Il Synthex 2 di Mario Maggi
Old 2nd May 2015
  #402
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John Difool's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years

Last edited by John Difool; 2nd May 2015 at 08:29 PM..
Old 2nd May 2015
  #403
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🎧 5 years
Fascinating - so there may be both a Synthex I and Synthex II on the market uite shortly.
Old 2nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #404
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Synthex 2 : 128 LFO ???
Old 2nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #405
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wendell r. ➡️
Fascinating - so there may be both a Synthex I and Synthex II on the market uite shortly.
I suspect there may be some lawyers making some money soon. As I understand it, Soundion bought the rights to the elka and synthex names
Old 2nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #406
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzrichie ➡️
Synthex 2 : 128 LFO ???
Not difficult with modern processors in a synth where the modulation is digital. presenting it in a usable way without adding loads of knobs is probably the biggest challenge
Old 2nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #407
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🎧 5 years
Fascinating plot-twist and another blow to the marketing campaign. May be they knew Maggi was working on that, and therefor rushed the campaign? Speculation, i know, i am sorry.

To be honest, i am losing hope they can make it still. They somehow lost momentum, and despite other opinions, i think due to their own mistakes. I am not going to repeat them, as we all know them by heart now.
Old 2nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #408
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🎧 10 years
This is more like it. cant wait!


Quote:
Originally Posted by fractalmind ➡️
Hi , i am Umberto from Modena (Italy) , for a small number of experts, it was not even a novelty that Mario Maggi (the designer of Sinthex), between a project and the other for the most diverse branches of industry, was putting their hands at a general revamping of its prestigious polyphonic analog to propose then to vast number of electronic musicians. In practice, this is not a clone but a totally new design utilizing advanced and powerful technologies, while maintaining the character and peculiarities of the original version.
Nothing to do with the Finnish project.
Mario today decided to disclose a first set of features of the new project, which could have lead times and marketing much shorter than you might think.

to this address : Audio Central Magazine » Il Synthex 2 di Mario Maggi
Old 2nd May 2015
  #409
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isham's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
But what's this exactly ? Hybrid digital/analog synth ?
https://translate.googleusercontent....fAgHXfonHFkzkQ
Old 2nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #410
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec ➡️
Fascinating plot-twist and another blow to the marketing campaign. May be they knew Maggi was working on that, and therefor rushed the campaign? Speculation, i know, i am sorry.

To be honest, i am losing hope they can make it still. They somehow lost momentum, and despite other opinions, i think due to their own mistakes. I am not going to repeat them, as we all know them by heart now.
It hasn't been a secret. I posted it earlier in the thread. Many people know he's been working on it for years and years
Old 2nd May 2015
  #411
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🎧 5 years
Isn't the official announcement the new part, though ?
Old 2nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #412
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by isham ➡️
But what's this exactly ? Hybrid digital/analog synth ?
https://translate.googleusercontent....fAgHXfonHFkzkQ
But wasn't it mentioned upthread that the original synthex was a kind of dco/vco/digital hybrid synth ? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, as I can't remember where the original post was and haven't studied the new one yet.
Old 2nd May 2015
  #413
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Starspawn's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
So much pointless made up gossip :/
Old 2nd May 2015
  #414
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🎧 5 years
Well the magazine part doesn't seem to be made - up, and i don't recall any official announcement from maria maggi before.
Old 2nd May 2015
  #415
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isham's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Well synthex 2 won't be a clone, it would be good to have Mario in GS speaking about his projects ...
Old 2nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #416
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Starspawn's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wendell r. ➡️
Well the magazine part doesn't seem to be made - up, and i don't recall any official announcement from maria maggi before.
Yeah, but even if correct that doesnt mean that soundion doesnt know about it, and Maggi is backstabbing them and so on.

Its not clever just making up alternative scenarios, they kind of have to make sense not just make a story where others are stupid so someone can point it out and be a hero.
Old 2nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #417
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fractalmind ➡️
Hi , i am Umberto from Modena (Italy) , for a small number of experts, it was not even a novelty that Mario Maggi (the designer of Sinthex), between a project and the other for the most diverse branches of industry, was putting their hands at a general revamping of its prestigious polyphonic analog to propose then to vast number of electronic musicians. In practice, this is not a clone but a totally new design utilizing advanced and powerful technologies, while maintaining the character and peculiarities of the original version.
Nothing to do with the Finnish project.
Mario today decided to disclose a first set of features of the new project, which could have lead times and marketing much shorter than you might think.

to this address : Audio Central Magazine » Il Synthex 2 di Mario Maggi
I've put this page to google translate - yet there are lots of basic stuff i don't understand. Such as - is this "synthex 2" an analog synth or a VA?
What's the estimated price for the desktop version? When will it be for sale? When will there be some demos?

Thanks!
Old 3rd May 2015
  #418
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🎧 5 years
Won't be cheap
Old 3rd May 2015 | Show parent
  #419
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by isham ➡️
But what's this exactly ? Hybrid digital/analog synth ?
https://translate.googleusercontent....fAgHXfonHFkzkQ
Hmmmm.
Seems that it's a digital synth. He's talking about some "high definition architechture" technology for generating the oscillators and filters. I imagine that means it's a digital/va synth. Not that it's a bad thing. If it could emulate the synthex the way that the roland system-1 emulates the sh-2 then it could be interesting. It also seems to have more up its sleeve, such as additional wavetables for the oscillators, besides the usuall waveshapes.
Doesn't seem to be a direct competition to the other synthex recreation at all.
Old 3rd May 2015
  #420
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Hello to everyone,
my name is Enrico Cosimi, I'm the author of the text on ACM concerning the Synthex 2. I have been in touch, here in Rome/Italy, with Mario from the late Eigthies and, from the mid Nineties, I'm working with Mario on his "version two"; as you can imagine, Mario is a very very very busy kind of genius, who conceived and realized a lot of third party non-musical items (especially for telecommunications and health). I am not allowed to reveal all the data concerning the new Synthex 2 (b.t.w., it will be a digital equipment: would you dare to conceive an analog instrument with 128 LFOs and 64 EGs in the same box?), but - trust me - when it will be done, it will be a GREAT machine.

Here, I have read some incorrect statements, so, I'll try to ad my 2 cents:

a) the original ELKA brand has NEVER acquired rights over the Synthex name; they built under license from Mario Maggi;
b) i was pretty curious (and still) about the new finnish company; I think they would have believed that Generalmusic acquired Elka and Elka acquired Synthex. That's incorrect (see above, point A);
c) when I talked with them, at the Mövenpick meeting in Frankfurt, they had not jet contacted Mario (who is known for not being very fast in email answering);
d) Mario Maggi knew from music press about the "finnish Synthex", he doesn't know nothing about the idea of resurrecting the old analog CEM/based machine;
e) the finnish doesn't know anything about the Mario's Synthex 2 effort
f) Mario Maggi is the legal owner of the "Synthex" name
g) Mario Maggi is the legal owner of the original source code for the vintage machine, and for all the boards inside

frankly, I don't know how this thing will end up.

Last week, I heard, at Mario's lab in Rome, the new HIDEA oscillators and filters and, IMHO, they sounds absolutely great, with a lot of features (now) common and until now, very uncommon, with - at least - three or four new behavior on filter and waveform treatments that are IMHO worthy of patent by Mario.

Maybe, in the next week, Mario Maggi himself will decide to show us more details and terms and schedules and everything on the Synthex 2; for now, I can simply state that when it will be ready, it will be a real blast.

cheers
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