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Max for life versus Reaktor, does max score in any regard?
Old 15th September 2014
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
Bjonzon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Max for life versus Reaktor, does max score in any regard?

Why would i need max when even as a semi skilled reaktor patcher the limit of what reaktor can do for me is far away. I could patch reaktor for month just to transfer essential patches and sequence tricks from the hardware world.

What advantage would i gain to reach that semi skilled patchers level with max for live?

I dont doubt that it can do all of it too. Just, is it worth the hazzle?

Where are the advantages and strong points?

What kind of goals can you reach faster as with reaktor?
Old 15th September 2014
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Trolling for another opportunity to bash Ableton, Sven?

How many posts have already gotten wiped today?

To answer your question - McGurk the brown Henke dither, so absolutely lam-o no you weard troll.
Old 15th September 2014
  #3
Gear Maniac
 
Bjonzon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Sorry, its you that sounds like a weard troll.
Old 15th September 2014
  #4
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Alex Aliferis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I've used both extensively and would say that Max is far more efficient with CPU resources and far more powerful in that users can create their own modules using C, or JavaScript for non-timing critical purposes.

I like Reaktor in general but many tasks which should have been simple would require intense planning and tons of modules in convoluted arrangements, as that none would provide the needed functionality. This would normally occur in relation to routing / control signal logic.

I also encountered unacceptable timing issues when triggering multiple sample playback oscillators simultaneously, so I looked for greener pastures.
Old 15th September 2014
  #5
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lysander's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'm quite interested in this, but know very little about MAX. Can I ask you a few questions:
How good is the SDK, and how straightforward would it be to code up a new oscillator, filter or envelope to integrate inside the MAX environment ?
I'm assuming of course you have the DSP and algorithmic parts already figured out and you just want to integrate your code ( I'm experienced on the DSP and C++ side ).
And does the SDK work the same in Max 4 Live ?
Can you bang out a simple synth and interface in a few minutes like you can in Reaktor ?
Old 15th September 2014
  #6
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I'm interested as well. One of the best things about Reaktor is the vast amount of user patches. You can learn Reaktor programming just by inspecting those patches. I'm not aware of such patch collection for Max.

Also how would Pure Data fit into the equation? I have understood that Max is a fork of PD. Apparently it has been possible to import Max patches saved in text format into PD. However it seems that the development of PD hasn't quite kept up with the new Max features.
Old 15th September 2014 | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee ➑️
I'm interested as well. One of the best things about Reaktor is the vast amount of user patches. You can learn Reaktor programming just by inspecting those patches. I'm not aware of such patch collection for Max.
maxforlive.com is like Reaktor user library.

For me reaktor have been more user friendly. It's easy to do something usable. M4L lacks the good library of filters, oscillators and such. For good programmes it might bee good.
Old 15th September 2014
  #8
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Alex Aliferis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If you have DSP programming experience, you will find working in Max to be a Godsend versus the comparatively limited Reaktor. There is definitely more of a learning curve with Max, but it comes with tremendous power and flexibility when mastered.

As for a User Library, there is nothing approaching what's available for Reaktor, which is one of its greatest strengths, though every factory supplied module in Max includes a fully functional patch which incorporates it and a text explanation as to how it functions, which can really add speed to your workflow when starting out.

I can't really speak on Max's relation to PD as that I only looked into it long ago and may be out of date in that respect.
Old 15th September 2014 | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Burrito ➑️
maxforlive.com is like Reaktor user library.

For me reaktor have been more user friendly. It's easy to do something usable. M4L lacks the good library of filters, oscillators and such. For good programmes it might bee good.
Do these maxforlive.com patches work with Max standalone or do they require Ableton Live?
Old 15th September 2014
  #10
Deleted 6fe7d4e
Guest
I've never used Reaktor, but does it allow creation of MIDI control and processing devices? If you look at the M4L library, there are lots of MIDI processors, instrument editors and other gadgets.

coffee,

M4L devices require Live.
Old 15th September 2014
  #11
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Miiko's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Two totally different tools. Max is a DSP programming tool. Reaktor is like a modular DSP tool made from building blocks. Very, very different things.
Old 15th September 2014 | Show parent
  #12
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Alex Aliferis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naugo ➑️
Two totally different tools. Max is a DSP programming tool. Reaktor is like a modular DSP tool made from building blocks. Very, very different things.
Max is entirely modular, with processors and synths created by connecting ("wiring") audio processing units and logic/control units together, just as in Reaktor. There are many others along the same lines, some requiring DSP hardware, such Synthmaker, Scope, Kyma, Korg's SynthKit and Clavia's Nord Modular.
Old 22nd September 2014 | Show parent
  #13
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Miiko's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Aliferis ➑️
Max is entirely modular, with processors and synths created by connecting ("wiring") audio processing units and logic/control units together, just as in Reaktor. There are many others along the same lines, some requiring DSP hardware, such Synthmaker, Scope, Kyma, Korg's SynthKit and Clavia's Nord Modular.
Yes I know, my point is that in MAX you have to actually build every little aspect, program the functions, etc... in Reaktor it is much easier because a lot of that work is done for you, you just drop the building block and connect them.
Old 23rd September 2014 | Show parent
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
Bjonzon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified ➑️
I've never used Reaktor, but does it allow creation of MIDI control and processing devices? If you look at the M4L library, there are lots of MIDI processors, instrument editors and other gadgets.

coffee,

M4L devices require Live.
Chord memorizers and step sequencers can be made with reaktor easily but no real processing. I see that max can do more there when you are a programmer but the low quality and little usefullness of the user defices draws a different picture. Except some pro devices like the settings capture tool ritchi hawtin hired somebody to do there are not much reasons ro buy max for live. But that capture tool is pretty essential for stage use. Its actually a shame that such features dont get provided by the daw. The whole max for live thing seems to be rather an exploitation of the uSerbase. I think i safe my time and keep focused on reaktor.
Old 23rd September 2014
  #15
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
So...you already had an opinion, and did just want to start a troll thread.

What a 3phase thing to do.
Old 23rd September 2014
  #16
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Alex Aliferis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
On the topic of a user library, just thought I'd mention that due to Max's open nature there exist several collections of third party modules for all manner of purposes, most of which are free.

A good one to check out at first would Jamoma
Old 23rd September 2014
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Lot's of nice M4L devices out there, free or paid (Gamma Devices are truly great). Reaktors stuff's great too, but used and heard millions of times.
Pick your poison.
Old 23rd September 2014 | Show parent
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
Bjonzon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorblade ➑️
So...you already had an opinion, and did just want to start a troll thread.

What a 3phase thing to do.
<deleted by moderator - abuse is not allowed/>. The thread hasnt brought any positive indications except that max is better for dsp coders. And thats no argument for me.

Last edited by Reptil; 23rd September 2014 at 09:51 PM.. Reason: -
Old 23rd September 2014 | Show parent
  #19
165099
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjonzon ➑️
...The whole max for live thing seems to be rather an exploitation of the uSerbase. I think i safe my time and keep focused on reaktor.
please expand on why you feel that MAXforLive is "an exploitation of the user base"?



here is a recent video posted by Cycling74 showing a basic example of what MAX is and although there is some overlap, MAX itself is very different from Reaktor and is capable of much broader use and the integration of MAXforLive is a godsend, especially for those of us who do not code DSP.
Old 23rd September 2014 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
Bjonzon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdilletteMan ➑️
Lot's of nice M4L devices out there, free or paid (Gamma Devices are truly great). Reaktors stuff's great too, but used and heard millions of times.
Pick your poison.
With reaktor its easy to roll your own. Thats the thing max seems to make more difficult. It apears to be not a quickfix for anything. Maybe i am wrong but the learning time has to be in relation to the gains and the user lib dont shows any gains. There is way better sounding and smarter stuff in the reaktor lib. So either max users lack the brilliance or the program makes it more difficult to come along with cool ideas. Its remarkable that max can do eberything in the hands of a skilled dsp coder but in the hamds of the normal producer the results are a little to normal to waste time for.
Old 23rd September 2014 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
Bjonzon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 165099 ➑️
please expand on why you feel that MAXforLive is [I]"an exploitation of the user base

here is a recent video posted by Cycling74 showing a basic example of what MAX is and although there is some overlap, MAX itself is very different from Reaktor and is capable of much broader use and the integration of MAXforLive is a godsend, especially for those of us who do not code DSP.
Why is that godsend? Can you give some examples where this really worked as a gamechanger for you? Where does this integration really allow things that are not standard features in other daws anyway?

And exploitation of the userbase is when infrastructural daw features are left to the user to develop but instead paying him you need to buy another product, max for live.
See the hawtin capture function that forced me to buy max. Mixer snapshots was on abletons feature wishlist 12 years ago allready. Why do i need max and real self coding effort to allow such a rather simple thing? Why wasnt that realized daw internal? Sorry, thats a waste of max potential, exploitation of the userbase and a stability risk for stage use.

However.. Is max also usefull for other thongs than covering the shortcommings of the ableton development? Where does it really brings benefit? Why do you call the integration god send? What was the moment that made you thinking that?
Old 23rd September 2014
  #22
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I wish you would have a background in software development, then you would realize the following: clients are a howling pack of wolves out for your blood, management are a bunch of sociopaths, and fellow developers are either incompetent idiots or poor sods in the same boat.

You can not implement every pet feature you personally think of as vital at a whim. You have three choices: start your own company, become famous enough so you could be interesting as a consultant, or realize that no amount of complaining for over a decade has changed anything, and sever. Are the alternatives truly so bad that you have to be stuck in a loveless marriage?

That's how Max was advertised by Ableton as I understand it: they don't have time or manpower to implement every cool little thing - so they give you the tools so you can implement every cool little thing.

Here's a difference: with Max (standalone) you have Gen: Extend the Power of Max with Code Generation and Export - no equivalent exists in Reaktor.
Old 23rd September 2014
  #23
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
please expand on why you feel that MAXforLive is "an exploitation of the user base"?
Because it's one of 3phases various incarnations just wanting to troll. He's like a seven foot albino that thinks if he puts a different hat on, no one will recognize him, even though he gets called out immediately every time. Just another pathetic ploy for attention, not a sincere inquiry. Moderator edit, accusations and inflammatory language like this should be edited by yourself before you post it - it's childlike and serves no purpose other than to upset the person you take issue with.

The mods have been running around deleteing his comments in other threads...not sure why they are leaving this up.
Old 23rd September 2014 | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjonzon ➑️
Go back under your stone little cave troll. The thread hasnt brought any positive indications except that max is better for dsp coders. And thats no argument for me.
of course it's not Sven...That's what makes this a troll thread.

Not anything that anyone would ever say about it would change your mind. You just want to bitch about Live. That's all you ever want to do. It's pathetic, yet hilarious at the same time. That's why I will always take a minute out of my day to ridicule you. It's just too easy.

<removed by moderator - baiting not allowed>

Last edited by Reptil; 23rd September 2014 at 09:55 PM.. Reason: -
Old 23rd September 2014
  #25
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crufty's Avatar
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
they are both great; i find Max easier to remember how to use and since it integrates w/ableton, does more for me esp w/midi

one day i hope live will deal with sysex, then i'll probably never post on a forum again
Old 23rd September 2014 | Show parent
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
Bjonzon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer ➑️
I wish you would have a background in software development, then you would realize the following: clients are a howling pack of wolves out for your blood, management are a bunch of sociopaths, and fellow developers are either incompetent idiots or poor sods in the same boat.

You can not implement every pet feature you personally think of as vital at a whim. You have three choices: start your own company, become famous enough so you could be interesting as a consultant, or realize that no amount of complaining for over a decade has changed anything, and sever. Are the alternatives truly so bad that you have to be stuck in a loveless marriage?

That's how Max was advertised by Ableton as I understand it: they don't have time or manpower to implement every cool little thing - so they give you the tools so you can implement every cool little thing.

Here's a difference: with Max (standalone) you have Gen: Extend the Power of Max with Code Generation and Export - no equivalent exists in Reaktor.
?? sorry..we talk about the worlds most selling daw..its not the cheapest and its since 15 years in development now.

Mixer scene snapshots are no pet feature but a standard of digital mixing.. one of the main benefits of digital mixdowns and especially usefull live on stage where you have one set of tracks but different songs to play that might require different mix settings.

Consequently Ritchi Hawtin has spend his own money to realize such a feature that was allready implemented at the core of ableton live, but instead including such a feature themself, as requested by many users, they choose to turn it into a sales argument for max for live.. Sorry when i dont see that as funny or the natural way software development should progress. Thats squezzing money out of the userbase and forcing them to buy max for live. See teh convolution reverb.. logic managed to include one without the need of a max for live.. To make such things max for live exclusive are plain business tactics, but max is not really necessary to realize such functions.

"they dont have time and manpower".. but one guy ritchie hawtin hired can do it in less than a month..
Old 23rd September 2014 | Show parent
  #27
Gear Maniac
 
Bjonzon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorblade ➑️
of course it's not Sven...That's what makes this a troll thread.

Not anything that anyone would ever say about it would change your mind. You just want to bitch about Live. That's all you ever want to do. It's pathetic, yet hilarious at the same time. That's why I will always take a minute out of my day to ridicule you. It's just too easy.

You're special that way.
Could the mods please remove this guy from the thread? his weard comments are totally oftopic and i feel stalked…

ridicule who? razorblade? not the sharpest if you ask me.. you are just annoying and useless.

The thread question is relevant. And since i bought max for live for the amount of money i can get a complete logic 10 for , just for the mix scene recall, i would like to learn if its worth the hazzle to learn max or not. Is there more use for this investion when you learn to ptch it? Or is it a waste of time when you are thru the learning curve with reaktor allready?

All that wont change my opinion about abletons development politics which is more than questionable, but my opinion about max for live as a tool. And that is what the thread is about..max for live versus reaktor

Sofar i havent heard anything convincing here toward max that makes it indispensable, except that its good and faster for dsp coders.. i can see that..Its closer to code, but i wont become a dsp coder just to make use of max for live.

The "godsend" statement of the herb guy sounded interesting, if this can be backed with a real live application story..
I would like to know what situations max for live can be a godsend savior.. For me thats only the mix scene recall sofar..and that should have been part of the daw anyway and works.. i dont need to learn how to patch max to use that.

Sofar i dont see what mfl can do other tools like reaktor couldΒ΄nt do..even without being so closely integrated into the program.
Old 23rd September 2014
  #28
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
That would all be great if it wasn't for your vast history on this site under countless aliases doing nothing but trolling Ableton threads, Sven.
That's why you keep getting the boot, and I don't.

Why would you buy Max when you hate Ableton? You didn't buy anything. Trolling.

I understand why you don't like people pointing out who you actually are ...I'd be embarrassed too.

Of course you can always come out, stand up and just admit who you are and see what happens...If you're on the up and up then should be proud to admit you're 3phase.
Except for the part where they ban you again.

I use both Max and Reaktor and so I feel qualified to point out you are 3phase and this is a troll thread. Just to be on topic.
Old 23rd September 2014 | Show parent
  #29
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Looping Loddar's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjonzon ➑️
Can you give some examples where this really worked as a gamechanger for you?
A digital modular environment and you are seeking for a "gamechanger"??
LOLLO!!!!
You are an ordinary <removed by moderator - baiting>. Your most important "job" is to discount other opinions, my friend. Go figure.

Last edited by Reptil; 23rd September 2014 at 09:59 PM.. Reason: -
Old 23rd September 2014
  #30
Moderator
 
Reptil's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
ok, if you don't agree with this thread's topic, that's perfectly ok, but keep it civil please?
thank you
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