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Max for life versus Reaktor, does max score in any regard?
Old 23rd September 2014 | Show parent
  #31
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looping Loddar ➡️
A digital modular environment and you are seeking for a "gamechanger"??
LOLLO!!!!
You are an ordinary <removed by moderator - baiting>. Your most important "job" is to discount other opinions, my friend. Go figure.
Thats the typical mindless repetition of advertizing slogans. Where is max for live a modular environment? It is not remotly close to one.. You need to write code to create a module that can interact with the daws gui. While this it at least something it is still far from the comfort a modular environment should give. The nord modular system is one..and this was a gamechanger back in the 1990´s.. Reaktor is close to one..that was a gamechanger too back in the last century.. But what will max for live give me with its hard to access functionality the older modular systems have´nt gave me already?

CAn somebody please bring some practical examples where simple max patches done things for him that really added a new edge?

Or is it all just the same as with reaktor except that the dsp coder can realize more complex things like FFT stuff ?

But the same can be sayed about c++ than? Is it really the only benefit of max for live that it blossoms in the hand of a real coder while confronting the normal producer with a way to high learning curve to achive just the same as you can do in reaktor?

Thats no rhetoric question for me.. i want to know because i am used to stay on top of te bleeding edge of technology. But time is too valuable to learn redundant things..maybe Bitwig learns to sync one day and really blows ableton out of my studio than.. Than all efforts to learn max will leave the studio with it..except i buy an expensive standalone licence for max..

That will only make sense if max convinces me.. But right now it looks a little like an enigma next to reaktor.

I learned reaktor without touching the manual..up to today i never touched the rektor manual just asked a few questions to expert coders on their forum.

That dont seems to be possible with max.. otherwise i would try to hack it wright now and not ask here if its worth the hazzle.


So again..any real world examples where max for live has safed your ass or opened some real new possibilitys? Or are the benefits all just theoretical and everybody just uses he presets without the need to really patch it?

Bitwig seems to be on the way to a real modular environment, one that is easily accesible by evrybody..it allready allows to modulate any parameter in much better ways as abeton live and that without the need to run another program for that functionality. Similar to reaktor it seems to have limits in relation to max.. But you dont need to be a coder to make use of it..
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #32
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crufty's Avatar
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjonzon ➡️
So again..any real world examples where max for live has safed your ass or opened some real new possibilitys? Or are the benefits all just theoretical and everybody just uses he presets without the need to really patch it?
all my max for live widgets are created from scratch by me, not because I'm great but because it was pretty easy to do. i use them to select patches on hw synths and send nnrpn / rpn messages, esp handy w/poly evolver and other hw.

i also use it for custom panning which I am fond of.

so there are two examples.
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #33
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty ➡️
all my max for live widgets are created from scratch by me, not because I'm great but because it was pretty easy to do. i use them to select patches on hw synths and send nnrpn / rpn messages, esp handy w/poly evolver and other hw.

i also use it for custom panning which I am fond of.

so there are two examples.
sending standard midi controlers that abletons live is not able to produce and having a different panlaw? ok..thats helpfull but again thats thinsg taht are in a daw like logic build in since the last century.. so not really exciting new possibilities but patching up shortcomings of ableton live at your own expense..

And also things you can easily patch in reaktor.

Again my angle is..what are the benefits for a semi skilled reaktor user..

Its not that i am not curious to learn max.. But i miss a little the kind of goals i dont achieve allready with the tools i already use. Maybe my creative phantasie is not big enough to get beyond the capabilitys of reaktor and the nord modular which together allowed me all kind of complex synth, sample and sequencing goals and with reaktor i even patchen audio measuring tools i use for trouleshooting.. so quite powerfull tools really and good sounding..

timing is excellent on booth.. limits are a little the rather slow reaktion time when i ve them on joysticks.. but i dont really see why max should be faster..but maybe it is?

I really would like to find some benefits of max.. But sofar it looks a little that its more just an alternative..same same but different.. Seems that one has to learn it first to see what it can do the other tools havent done for you allready..

in the end of the day i would prefer a better designed daw over modular systems that allow me to overpatch missing features.. leaving the patch time for sound design goals.
But also with reaktor and the nord G2 i ve spend a lot of time to patch more funky and interactive sequencers.. what is somhow aswell overpatching the shortcommings of your daw, since that should do the sequencing.

That brings me to the sequencer question..the sequencers i ve seen for max sofar was at best crap.. really simple stuff with no real interaction or realtime abillities, natural.. proper sequencers dont get posted freely so easily since the easily become part of your signature sound.

My sequencers for reaktor for example are way better than anything you find in the user lib and tailored for my needs.. but..its a hazzle to patch them.. not so far from coding since you do that with the event table modules that are rather rough.. so you do a lot IF/Then patching.. And than internal process timing can become tricky.. the event order module is very important than and its a lot of debugging necessary. so not really fun.. i actually prefer my nord g2 for real time sequencers.. its easier to patch them there..

Anybody has done realtime able sequencers in max? is it better for this than the sequencer patches in the user lib suggest?
Old 24th September 2014
  #34
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Heathfinnie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Why do you ask a question and then tell everyone who gives an opinion why their wrong?
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #35
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Bjonzon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathfinnie ➡️
Why do you ask a question and then tell everyone who gives an opinion why their wrong?
bullshit.. i havent called anybody wrong but the trolls. But i asked for the speciallity where that max for live thing scores against reaktor..

And sofar there was only empty phrases of whats theoretical possible in the "dsp coders" hands.. what dont matters for 99,5% of the real world electronic music producer that is no dsp coder.. Beside that the only examples of realworld applications was things reaktor could do aswell.. but we just had the 2 things crufty mentioned as real world applications..
the advertizing slogans about the illusive easier, faster and deeper patching in max have the majority.. I ve heard that pro max arguments before and i felt for them too when buying that thing..

but now after checking all that user patches i feel highly underwhelmed with max for live.. it appears to be more the tool for simpleton fixes but not for sound design at production level. Is that the reality of max for live or is the userbase just not so much into sharing theire best results yet?

So again.. anybody here with special personal achievements that are above the level the user lib shows? has it happened for you? or is the power of max rather a theoretical strength one cant really utilize in production?

regarding to the userlib max for live is way less interesting than the promotion suggests. Is there really such a big learning curve that sets the mean max for live user lightyears behind the expert dsp and c++ experienced max patcher?

my first reaktor patch was a S-612 clone with sliders for loop start and end and variable samplerate.. i was able to patch that right away… with a lot of crossword puzzeling debugging.. but the modules was self explaining.. I needed to learn to patch arround the reaktor bugs of that time..but basically it worked..sounded gourgeous.. and is still usefull to me after so many years..

That experience turned me into a reaktor fan,.. i actually like things i can explore myself and reaktor is really well designed in that regard.. max is not really designed for that, obviously, but is it worth the extra hazzle to get your head around it?

Anybody that made such a positive experience with max for live? having a musical goal that is not too simple but not too complex.. and succeed?
like the looper where you manually can set start and end point where moving start behind the stop fader reverses the loop.. simple but so nice on the s 612 hardware sampler.. a realworld patch goal that creates musical results.

Are there any such interesting things a max for live starter has ever achieved?
How long have you needed to succeed with your max patching goals? is that a question of hours? days? weeks? months?

i dont expect it to be as intuitive as reaktor where one can start right away.. i know that max is harder because i cant do anything with it without manuals or tutorials. its just too far away from a modular synth for that..

But how long does it realistical take? i ve no idea but suspect month.. is it that hard?
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #36
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crufty's Avatar
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjonzon ➡️
sending standard midi controlers that abletons live is not able to produce and having a different pan law?
ok..thats helpfull but again thats thinsg taht are in a daw like logic build in since the last century.. so not really exciting new possibilities but patching up shortcomings of ableton live at your own expense.
actually, i found Max to be much easier and more robust then logic's midi environment and logic had a really goofy patch name process too, at least logic 8/9 did, so logic was not perfect. logic did have sysex handling, as buggy as it was.

I have not used the most recent logic however w/the javascript engine, i'm sure its capable of incredible things.

for me, max was 1000x better then reaper's reamidi plugin, which is very limiting and what drove me to albeton in the first place.

i also found max much easier for me to use over reaktor as it integrates with live, so it's part of the user interface. when i select a midi track, the controllers are right there in the effect chain.so i start a clip and then tweak the patch via m4l. reaktor is so separate.

i have built robust sequencers in reaktor as well and it is very good at that sort of thing. i find it easier to sequence w/ ableton and max 4 live to control / automate midi events. I can't imagine doing midi in live without m4l.


you asked if anyone finds m4l useful and i am simply saying, for me, it is wonderful. all my hw are like little au plugins. i open a live set and all the hw reverts to the patches they should, and all the patches are initialized to the values they ought, the automation is there and i don't have to scratch my head wondering what cc does what. this doesn't mean it's for you.

i am not trying to feed people to my blog (more like a notebook that lasts longer then my computers) but for some reason the pictures wouldn't hyperlink

http://cruftysound.blogspot.com/2013...ontroller.html
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #37
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Bjonzon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty ➡️
when i select a midi track, the controllers are right there in the effect chain.so i start a clip and then tweak the patch via m4l. reaktor is so separate.

... I can't imagine doing midi in live without m4l.
now you are talking..ok.. that rings some bells.. midi in live is dreadfull..

Quote:
you asked if anyone finds m4l useful and i am simply saying, for me, it is wonderful. all my hw are like little au plugins. i open a live set and all the hw reverts to the patches they should, and all the patches are initialized to the values they ought, the automation is there and i don't have to scratch my head wondering what cc does what. this doesn't mean it's for you.
i remember the time it was like that somwhere in the second half of the 90´s.. long gone opcode comfort midi..


Quote:
i am not trying to feed people to my blog (more like a notebook that lasts longer then my computers) but for some reason the pictures wouldn't hyperlink

Crufty Sound: Ableton Live - Roland MDC-1 Synth Controller

To enhance the the midi processing in live internally is an argument that counts..reaktor as audio plug in is to separated from the midi streams to do as much..
Thats a point where i see how m4l can score now.

thanks for serious input..
Old 24th September 2014
  #38
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Heathfinnie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Why not compare max to reaktor? Max for live is a small part of Max.
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
Bjonzon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathfinnie ➡️
Why not compare max to reaktor? Max for live is a small part of Max.
I dont own max but reaktor and max for live..

but i ask for benefits in practical application of the max system..you very well can tell me about the benefits of the full max too.. But personally i am more interested in the question .."why should i learn to patch max?"
and this refers mainly to the version of max i have at hand..m4l
But its also interesting to know what benefits you can gain from learning max when you eventually would switch to the full version..
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #40
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crufty's Avatar
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathfinnie ➡️
Why not compare max to reaktor? Max for live is a small part of Max.
my max demo license expired--i don't own it

I find Max 4 live to be very well documented, I do not need a manual to use it; every function/widget has nice examples, the online help really helps, and I was able to sit down and be somewhat productive with it. I also like how I can type in the operations as i need them, and it all just works.

for example, my pan law is not just pan law, it's multiple stereo busses that act as pan and width control and its based on my ramsa console; I was able to quickly put it together with just some reasoning out what should happen and it works nicely.

bjonzon is correct that some of this should be a part of daws--i have submitted requests to most major daw makers to please please please add stereo width control to the panning function and so far few takers.

Reaktor I need the manual. I also find the presentation of Reaktor to be less clear for me. Some reaktor modules however sound amazing, and are really great tutorials on synthesis design. I have not explored Max the same way.

i had thought about building a sysex enabled sequencer in max and foregoing ableton altogether but $$$ and time--live does a lot for me and M4L plugs many gaps.
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #41
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty ➡️
Reaktor I need the manual. I also find the presentation of Reaktor to be less clear for me. .
Really? Coming from modular synthesis reaktor was really easy for me and the physical representation just natural. But simmilar to hardware modulars you can loose overview quickly when patches get huge.

You are the first person that states m4l to be easy and functional, that inspires to give it a shot actually.

Problem is i ve no simple goals.. Rather things like you mention.. Sys ex sequencing for my juno 106.

But i guess thats not so easy, otherwise such a thing would have been patched by someone allready. And i am really pissed off to be forced to put time into a thing even my old atari software was able to do. Why is it so impossible for ableton to deliver full midi standard compatibillity in the 9 years the program got midi funktionality now. 9years! That tells us that we never will have sysex support in ableton live and one needs m4l to patch that yourself. Thats really supporting musical creativity. ( irony)

Anyway, what do you think does it take to realize automation recording for the juno 106 with max for live?

Could you do it? Or does that need expert coders?

Why hasnt anybody approached such a project yet?

Its not only the juno 106 but al lot of hardware synths that can be parameter modulated via sys ex.

Even without realtime automation, just sysex dumps stored with the projectfile would help a lot. I can load a 1990 atari disk and the juno will play just the same sound as back than. Allowing me to directly write new lines for the old sounds. Thats great for remixing.

But sadly the 3 years old live project with that fantastic juno growl only gives me the audio recording to get back to. Somehow sad that progress and regress go so much hand in hand in software development.
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #42
165099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjonzon ➡️
Anyway, what do you think does it take to realize automation recording for the juno 106 with max for live?

Could you do it? Or does that need expert coders?

Why hasnt anybody approached such a project yet?
http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=220 ...this isn't exactly what you're after but it took all of typing "Max for Live Juno 106" into google and it was the first result. I'm certain that you could find some use of this device and it might be a nice starting point for you to add whatever functionality you find missing.

oh but wait, Topic: JunoControl – M4L Patch for the Roland JUNO-106 ...here's the second Google link which does concern 106 automation within Live.

and no, you don't need to be an "expert coder" or a coder at all for projects such as this. why don't you try using your time actually trying some things instead of just complaining online about that which you do not understand?
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #43
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 165099 ➡️
http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=220 ...this isn't exactly what you're after but it took all of typing "Max for Live Juno 106" into google and it was the first result. I'm certain that you could find some use of this device and it might be a nice starting point for you to add whatever functionality you find missing.

oh but wait, Topic: JunoControl – M4L Patch for the Roland JUNO-106 ...here's the second Google link which does concern 106 automation within Live.

and no, you don't need to be an "expert coder" or a coder at all for projects such as this. why don't you try using your time actually trying some things instead of just complaining online about that which you do not understand?
I have this patch and its not working for me since its not receiving from the juno.. What renders it useless in production for me..

So i am more specific.. Why ard there no patches for max for live that can process incoming sys ex data? Because of the prohebition of sysex data in ableton live?
Does it need expert coders to overcome that or is the m4l userbase just to simple minded to see any use to record your hands on performance on a real exsisting hardware classic?

When it would be as easy as you say it would be there allready. But when i ve overseen it i am thankfull for links.

Beside that the thread question was about things where max scores.
To patch up the shortcomings of a badly developed money making daw ( "we cant do it, we are just a small team :"() is not exactly the gamechanging attraction i was hoping for.

Is that really all m4l can do? Patching up missing development work of the small team?

Any better m4l success storys than half working juno control?
Old 24th September 2014
  #44
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Alex Aliferis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I don't know where this idea that Max is mostly for DSP coders comes from. A major part of Max is that it's a rapid development tool that allows users to create things that would otherwise require huge amounts of coding, without code. I have created all manner of signal processors, MIDI sequencers, synthesizers and sample players in Max, almost all required no actual writing of code at all. From what I've seen online, this appears to be true of most Max users.

As for Reaktor, my primary issue with it is its closed nature. While developing a sample player for a client, I had to work extensively with Reaktor's samplemap creation tools and they were horrible (no drag and drop, sample ranges had to be entered numerically versus on a virtual keyboard). Due to this, but mostly others issues which involved timing and power management, I ended up finishing the project in Max. I found some user-created modules online which allowed me to setup sample loading and keyboard arrangement however I liked.

There's also an issue where Native Instruments appear to hobble certain aspects of Reaktor, such as its sample map editing window, so as not to compete with their primary sample-playing products, Kontakt and Battery. This is deeply unfortunate and results in a less than ideal product with many dead ends.
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #45
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🎧 5 years
Sample maps aside, (score point noted), what patches faster? Reaktor or max? And how long have you needed to get fluid with max?
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Aliferis ➡️
(no drag and drop, sample ranges had to be entered numerically versus on a virtual keyboard).
you can actually drag and drop audio files, on a virtual keyboard, and you can set key range and velocity mapping and root key all graphically, no need for numerical values
and as far as I can remember it has always been like that, though I am not 100% sure of the drag and drop
there also is an additional numerical view
Old 24th September 2014
  #47
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🎧 10 years
You can use Max for both video and lighting systems control in addition to audio and midi.

Working with Hardware: DMX, Part 1
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #48
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6 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjonzon ➡️
Anyway, what do you think does it take to realize automation recording for the juno 106 with max for live?
live strips out sysex, so m4l can't read nor write sysex via live...have to use some kind of interprocess communication so m4l talks to sw that then reads/writes sysex.

was too much of a hack for me, i have an mks-7.

I can't get mad at a daw for not having a 106 module btw, as a % of user count it can't be that high


Live is pretty sweet and m4l is quite the powerhouse. however it is not really a modular emulator the way reaktor, at least, not the way I approach both tools.
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #49
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty ➡️
live strips out sysex, so m4l can't read nor write sysex via live...have to use some kind of interprocess communication so m4l talks to sw that then reads/writes sysex.

was too much of a hack for me, i have an mks-7.

I can't get mad at a daw for not having a 106 module btw, as a % of user count it can't be that high


Live is pretty sweet and m4l is quite the powerhouse. however it is not really a modular emulator the way reaktor, at least, not the way I approach both tools.
Its not about a 106 editor..its about the midi protocol..and they could have just allowed it without stripping sysex.. no editor required.just allowing it to enter the storrage..than you can export the clips and edit elsewhere, ..
sysex compatibility is not necessarily a full sysex handling and editing. A easy solution would have helped allready a lot, or now would allow m4l to deal with it.. Ableton was asked to lift that restriction and stripping of sysex from the first day live 4 arrived.. But didnt answered that request because they wouldnt like a half implementation but cant get to it because of their too small developer team.. prefering to have a no solution ever since. But opposite to theire expectation the old synths didnt dies out but are now more popular than ever.

its actually a pitty that m4l cant do such edit tasks..that reduces the score point for midi handling. Its not a very well worked out systems when an unlimited program like max cant even acces the midi ports of live directly.. it really just screws with the gui..elsewise is just an audio plug in like reaktor and as distant from the daw..

Its really a bit frankensteinered modern day construction..endless possibillitys but thanks to design flaws not really great in anything. Thats opposite to the very limited feature set of old school electronic instruments that had therefore limited possibillitys but was really great with the things they could do. Better Instrumental and workstation designs.
Old 24th September 2014 | Show parent
  #50
165099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty ➡️
Live is pretty sweet and m4l is quite the powerhouse. however it is not really a modular emulator the way reaktor, at least, not the way I approach both tools.
while I agree, BEAP is worth a mention~ https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/beap...ules-max-live/
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