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100% Pure Analog! (How?)
Old 19th March 2014
  #121
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wwjd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
nothing wrong with the effort here and the fun involved with it.

but I'll say this: things evolve.... mostly for the better. Digital recording is BETTER than analog, because it is more accurate. What people like in analog are the failures of it. So, stepping BACK is not the helpful, it is less good.

One could argue that the best things were done before magnetic recording.... scratching vibrations into wax. But, things progressed from there and got better, then progressed and got better and better.
If one likes analog, by all means do it. OR just EQ digial similarly to analog.

But digital today can provide you with EXCEPTIONAL quality recordings that people 20 years ago could only fantasize about.
Old 19th March 2014 | Show parent
  #122
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slaughtrhaus's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd ➑️
but I'll say this: things evolve.... mostly for the better. Digital recording is BETTER than analog, because it is more accurate. What people like in analog are the failures of it. So, stepping BACK is not the helpful, it is less good.
Boy, them's fighting words! ::
Old 19th March 2014 | Show parent
  #123
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robot gigante's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd ➑️
nothing wrong with the effort here and the fun involved with it.

but I'll say this: things evolve.... mostly for the better. Digital recording is BETTER than analog, because it is more accurate. What people like in analog are the failures of it. So, stepping BACK is not the helpful, it is less good.

One could argue that the best things were done before magnetic recording.... scratching vibrations into wax. But, things progressed from there and got better, then progressed and got better and better.
If one likes analog, by all means do it. OR just EQ digial similarly to analog.

But digital today can provide you with EXCEPTIONAL quality recordings that people 20 years ago could only fantasize about.

Untrue.

When technology evolves, it's often not a linear process from worse to better. One might say it evolves in a different direction, or towards a different specialization, but not necessarily a better one. That is definitely the case with recording and synthesis technology.

Working with tape and a console is more expensive, but in my subjective opinion, it sounds much better. Another way of putting it is that I can deal with the flaws of analog, but in a lot of cases I don't like what happens to the sound when working in digital. No digital artifacts means a more quality sound to my poor ears... I guess so many years of working in digital has made them a little sensitive to those artifacts. Digital also has plenty of flaws and limitations without a doubt!

No doubt digital has made high quality audio accessible at an extremely low cost, and that is a good thing. But is it better overall? No, in some respects it's a step back.

It's good to use both technologies for what they are good at. Both are still evolving, I think there will be less of a dichotomy between them in the future.
Old 19th March 2014
  #124
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was silents's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Wasn't this the whole point of the Analord recordings?
Old 19th March 2014 | Show parent
  #125
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kjukambe's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd ➑️
Digital recording is BETTER than analog, because it is more accurate
of course no.

and you can't "just EQ digial similarly to analog", that is impossible, there is nothing you can do with just equalisation, there's waveform that deals with interpolation in digital domain, and contains carrier frequency (samplerate), that frequency is a constantly sounding musical note, very unpleasant in its nature

in fact, one of the best records i've heard was pink floyd's "pulse" concert on the cassette, and there was mention: "this is an analogue recording", means there was no AD-DA conversion, and it was initially recorded in analog. it sounded crispy clear, very "accurate" and pleasant, deep. actually, a good analogue recording is much more accurate to the initial music, it just adds some distortion and noise, but there's resolution, impossible in digital domain
Old 19th March 2014
  #126
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
I would never want to go back to using my Tascam 122 mkII tape deck exclusively for mastering. My only point was that the Tascam tended to sound warmer and more forgiving than the 16 bit DAT recorders at the time.

But I would take a 24 bit DAW with a bunch of high end tape emulation/saturation plugins over a cassette mastering deck any day now.
Old 19th March 2014
  #127
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wwjd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
best record was on cassette..... really? I mean REALLY? 40db of hissy dynamic range LIMITED to 80hz to 16,000 @ BEST on a TESTED PRO DECK.... THAT is the best heard? This is where I dismiss the "Vinyl sounds better" people. Really? scratchy worn down plastic grooves VS proven digital to analog conversions of wave forms, and VINYL sounds better? No. SOME might like the sloped off low and high end, and that is simply personal preference, but no one can say it is better. Even the lowly CD has more than twice that dynamic range which is almost ZERO noise floor to you and me... especially in a room with ANY HVAC moving air around or a non-sealed listening room.

And what are these digital artifacts you speak of? Maybe through a $.99 converter

I've used some of the world's best analog tape decks - lastly, a 2" dolby SR Studer, and as fantastic as it was, it had flutter, phase, EQ and major hiss problems, and it was in a pro world class studio so it was not for lack of manitenence... couldn't WAIT for digital to finally drop. But now, I can get better fidelity from a laptop and decent interface.

These are grand times for creative artists (not so much for full studio owners), so record analog if ya like - it won't make the actual SONGS any better written and that is all that matters - but nobody wants to go back to scratching lines in wax.
Old 19th March 2014
  #128
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pinkerton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
How do balanced xlr connectors reduce hiss? Am I missing something?
Old 19th March 2014 | Show parent
  #129
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Seccione's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
This thread is for those who know.

Digital approximations not allowed here, sorry lads.
Old 19th March 2014
  #130
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🎧 5 years
Yeah)

and vinyl almost always sounds better, especially at cymbals. techno, rock, any music. except Raster-Noton releases maybe) and Markus Popp.

btw, My Bloody Valentine still record and release in fully analog signal path, for those who want, and digital versions for everybody else (DTS too)

and one of the worlds most high-end service for audiophiles uses wide tapes, recorded at highest speed possible, you just buy reel-to-reel, subscribe, and every month receive available tapes.
Old 19th March 2014 | Show parent
  #131
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wwjd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjukambe ➑️
Yeah)

and one of the worlds most high-end service for audiophiles uses wide tapes, recorded at highest speed possible, you just buy reel-to-reel, subscribe, and every month receive available tapes.
I wonder if they have seen the latest edition of "Emperor's New Clothes" spring fashions catalog?

I hope they are listening via systems connected with the Denon Link cable:
Amazon.com : Denon AKDL1 Dedicated Link Cable (Discontinued by Manufacturer) : Audio Cables : Electronics
Old 19th March 2014
  #132
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wwjd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
folks, analog or digital is not going to make the actual SONGS better.

BUT, it is trippy fun recording that way. I still prefer that technique, but I use digital as the recording medium to avoid all the loss.
(BTW my 1/2" 16 track Tascam is collecting dust if anyone wants to buy it)
Old 19th March 2014
  #133
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kjukambe's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
of course digital cables made of gold are laughable. a friend of mine bought golden HDMI for 800 bucks and tried to prove that "picture looks better" with it. we made a 250 bucks bet. and he still refuses to give me money)

but that's not the case we're talking about here. nothing to laugh at. the thread is not intended for a holy war, please don't flood it if you have nothing to say about this thread's actual subject. consider it as academic experiment if you want. period.
Old 19th March 2014 | Show parent
  #134
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robot gigante's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
To quote that tech again, "digital perfection" is a scam. He knows a bit about audio tech - his mentor was George Massenburg. Keep on believing believers.

But who gives a flying f&^% at a rolling donut about another lame A vs D discussion, if some people who like analog sound want to talk about trying a 100% analog setup it would be nice to skip the 90's/00's style rants about how lacking analog is.

Start an A vs D thread if you want to rant, god knows everybody would be psyched for the information.
Old 19th March 2014 | Show parent
  #135
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kjukambe's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd ➑️
folks, analog or digital is not going to make the actual SONGS better.
actually, it does. it adds texture to the sound, and the sound itself is music. i like kosmoflot's tracks sound very much.

and there is inevitable analog simulation, crucial for the digital domain - it is called dithering
Old 19th March 2014
  #136
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kjukambe's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
sorry, we need to stop this) i could not resist and answered :D
Old 19th March 2014 | Show parent
  #137
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djmukilteo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seccione ➑️
BTW, if anyone has user manual (full version) and/or maybe even service manual in digital format, I would be very grateful to have a copy!

Seems to be impossible to find! (There's only pdf's with missing pages floating around internetz...)


edit: Whoa those AKG reverbs sure looks nice! Very rare, I guess?
You need the analog manual in paper form. Digitized manuals will just taint your analog project.
Old 19th March 2014
  #138
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kjukambe's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
feed the trolls off
Old 19th March 2014 | Show parent
  #139
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djmukilteo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I like my Tascam 38 1/2" 8 track RtoR and my Tascam 32 1/4" 2 track for mixdown through my Tascam M30 mixer.
That is all analog but I really need to track using microphones placed in front of people or amps to keep that all in the analog domain.....right?
Then there is the problem with playback. I can listen to the Tascam 32 but hard for anyone else to listen to it unless they come over.
I have a Roland S-50 and Roland Fantom X7 but those need to be run through amps and then mic'ed up to really maintain a true analog path and even then I don't know if that's cheating. I can run the audio outputs of those directly into the M30, but I think that is probably cheating to because the source samples and sounds are still digital.
I also have a PC, RME FF800 and Cubase6. I tend to use and think about that system as my "digital tape deck", which is what it really is.
But at that point I've certainly moved away from pure analog.
BTW, I do have paper manuals (analog) for all my stuff...LOL.
But I also have the PDF's on my computer. I like the analog manuals better because they are easier to read and right in front of me, not ITB...hehe.

The point is analog has always been a good system to record sound. At one point in history we managed to refine it to a very accurate degree, before computers came along.
These are truly two different systems and they each have a "sound".
It can be very hard to get a sense of what it is that's different, and IMHO I believe most of it is in the playback system we use to listen to these different formats that makes the most difference. After all speakers are still the final analog device that we use with our ears at the end of the day...
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #140
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkerton ➑️
How do balanced xlr connectors reduce hiss? Am I missing something?
Balanced connections do not reduce anything from the original signal. I never said that. On the other hand A/D converters reduce and throw away most of the analog signal by sampling only rare bits of the original infinitely complex waveform.

40 dB of usable dynamic range is completely fine with most of the modern electronic/dance music. People in digital realm are using approximations of distortion, tape artifacts and other ways to degrade the signal. Why not do it right and use a real tape? Our ears are accustomed and fine tuned for non-perfect analog signals and that's why anything digital sounds unrealistic and bad.
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #141
Gear Addict
 
pandar's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkerton ➑️
How do balanced xlr connectors reduce hiss? Am I missing something?
All wires pick up radio signals. Balanced cables remove radio waves picked up between start and termination by sending two copies out of phase at start and doing some (S+N)-(-S+N)=2s maths at termination.
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #142
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pinkerton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandar ➑️
All wires pick up radio signals. Balanced cables remove radio waves picked up between start and termination by sending two copies out of phase at start and doing some (S+N)-(-S+N)=2s maths at termination.
Yes that much I knew thank you mr. Wizard
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #143
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pinkerton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee ➑️
Balanced connections do not reduce anything from the original signal. I never said that. On the other hand A/D converters reduce and throw away most of the analog signal by sampling only rare bits of the original infinitely complex waveform.

40 dB of usable dynamic range is completely fine with most of the modern electronic/dance music. People in digital realm are using approximations of distortion, tape artifacts and other ways to degrade the signal. Why not do it right and use a real tape? Our ears are accustomed and fine tuned for non-perfect analog signals and that's why anything digital sounds unrealistic and bad.
Yes but the way you said it:

"It has xlr connections so I can record to the computer hiss and noise free"

How would xlr be different than trs, or simply TS or RCA?(aside from the typical reasons for balancing, of course, as the loquacious pandar has pointed out)

Or am I just reading too much into what you said? I'm simply curious.
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #144
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjukambe ➑️
and one of the worlds most high-end service for audiophiles uses wide tapes, recorded at highest speed possible, you just buy reel-to-reel, subscribe, and every month receive available tapes.
The amount of money audiophiles spend on equipment is completely unrelated to merit, tho.
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #145
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkerton ➑️
How would xlr be different than trs, or simply TS or RCA?(aside from the typical reasons for balancing, of course, as the loquacious pandar has pointed out)

Or am I just reading too much into what you said? I'm simply curious.
Probably. What I meant was that once something is recorded it can be transferred to other formats without any more significant degradation of signal. That is compared to some consumer level tape deck with rca connectors connected to, say, line-in of an integrated sound card.

I already use an unbalanced mixer so using a multitrack recorder might be too much but for recording a master tape in this kind of project a professional tape deck such as Tascam 122 would probably be good enough. IMHO.
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #146
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pandar's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkerton ➑️
Yes that much I knew thank you mr. Wizard
Sorry I should have guessed that...it not really something esoteric after all and you aren't one of the "basic production knowledge makes me less creative" eccentrics on here. You can set me on fire later (hopefully significantly) to chastise me for my insolence.
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #147
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Teknobeam's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkerton ➑️
Yes but the way you said it:

"It has xlr connections so I can record to the computer hiss and noise free"

How would xlr be different than trs, or simply TS or RCA?(aside from the typical reasons for balancing, of course, as the loquacious pandar has pointed out)

Or am I just reading too much into what you said? I'm simply curious.
XLR and TRS would likely both be balanced, but that is the intent of those connectors. Both of those connectors can be wired for use with "un balanced" hardware.

Balanacing doesn't eliminate tape hiss. A balancing scheme will mitigate induced unwanted signals by cancelling these out in the transformer since the would both end up reaching that component at the same intensity (defferance signal)..

Another factor is the gain.. typically balanced signals will be +4 as opposed to -10 (unbalanced),, but those things sort of became a standard. You can have good results with both balanced or unbalanced as long as the gain staging is consistent throughout the chain of hardware. Where you might get something that could be mistaken for "hiss" is when you are exceeding the noise floor threshold in an attempt to get more gain because the out put of a device isn't compatible with everything else.. that's just noise floor..

tape hiss is very recognizable. Recently I have listened to a bunch of CD's recorded in the 70's and 80's on analog tape before Dolby SR emerged. The tape hiss is very apparent in subtle passages, but only these days and with the awareness of the technology do you really think abou it. it was reality in that era. You could ride faders or use noise gates, but often that could also be more noticeable. A real 24 track or 48 track machine at high speed would add a degree of hiss per track.. all of that ads up, and then iot would be mastered on another 1/2 " machine adding another component of hiss. The trick was dealing with the quite passages. Some people didn't care as I have recently noticed. It was part of the recording.
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #148
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pinkerton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandar ➑️
Sorry I should have guessed that...it not really something esoteric after all and you aren't one of the "basic production knowledge makes me less creative" eccentrics on here. You can set me on fire later (hopefully significantly) to chastise me for my insolence.
Lol. No offense taken, man. Just making jokes. We are cool. No fire necessary.
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #149
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pinkerton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee ➑️
Probably. What I meant was that once something is recorded it can be transferred to other formats without any more significant degradation of signal. That is compared to some consumer level tape deck with rca connectors connected to, say, line-in of an integrated sound card.

I already use an unbalanced mixer so using a multitrack recorder might be too much but for recording a master tape in this kind of project a professional tape deck such as Tascam 122 would probably be good enough. IMHO.
Ah ok I see your meaning now. Thanks.
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #150
Gear Addict
 
pandar's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkerton ➑️
Lol. No offense taken, man. Just making jokes. We are cool. No fire necessary.
Very good
πŸ“ Reply

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