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Silly question about a roland space echo
Old 18th March 2014 | Show parent
  #31
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CthonicEwes ➡️
I'm sorry, but the people you trust and respect don't know what they are talking about! Of course a space echo needs to be demagged once in a while. If you don't hear a difference, that means things are operating properly, rather than being a sign that you shouldn't demag. Demagnetization is generally preventative maintenance.

I'm sure the original (user's or perhaps service) manual recommends how often to demagnetize. Without the manual, I would suggest every few months or so, but not too often.
OK, fair enough.

From this i infer that you personally have heard a difference between the sound before and after demagnetisation of your tape machine?
Old 18th March 2014 | Show parent
  #32
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🎧 10 years
I recently demagnetized two 201's and a 101 and all 3 had audible differences, not necessarily dramatic improvements, two were fine but one of the 201's stopped oscillating straight after, so I did it again carefully and adjusted the felt tension.

I'd be interested to see a pic of the tape head current trim pot you adjusted just to keep me right if I try it out?
Old 18th March 2014 | Show parent
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevee0303 ➡️
I recently demagnetized two 201's and a 101 and all 3 had audible differences, not necessarily dramatic improvements, two were fine but one of the 201's stopped oscillating straight after, so I did it again carefully and adjusted the felt tension.

I'd be interested to see a pic of the tape head current trim pot you adjusted just to keep me right if I try it out?
and these differences were improvements? was it brighter afterwards?

I've been wondering if i should demagnatise mine or not.

if you're talking to me about the trim pot, just look in the service manual. there's a good diagram there. it's very easy. you have 3 trimmers if i remember right. one is self oscillation point, one is bias and one is tape head current (ie record level).
Old 18th March 2014 | Show parent
  #34
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers ➡️
and these differences were improvements? was it brighter afterwards?

I've been wondering if i should demagnatise mine or not.

if you're talking to me about the trim pot, just look in the service manual. there's a good diagram there. it's very easy. you have 3 trimmers if i remember right. one is self oscillation point, one is bias and one is tape head current (ie record level).
Mr Golden, I hate manuals. But I knew it was in there. Echofix has the service manual downloadable.
Old 18th March 2014 | Show parent
  #35
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers ➡️
and these differences were improvements? was it brighter afterwards?

I've been wondering if i should demagnatise mine or not.

if you're talking to me about the trim pot, just look in the service manual. there's a good diagram there. it's very easy. you have 3 trimmers if i remember right. one is self oscillation point, one is bias and one is tape head current (ie record level).


Yeah sorry it was,

Thanks for the info, I'll re-look into the service manual which if adjusting the self oscillation pot or tape head current would mean I can maybe get away with less tension required on the felt.

I'd recommend demagging if you're experiencing any non obvious issues and most certainly if you think or don't know if it has been done in it's lifetime.

The differences I experienced were a definite improvement in tape travel and it improved in brightness but I also did it along with a basic service, cleaning the heads etc etc, so I attributed the improvements to both.
Old 18th March 2014 | Show parent
  #36
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevee0303 ➡️
Yeah sorry it was,

Thanks for the info, I'll re-look into the service manual which if adjusting the self oscillation pot or tape head current would mean I can maybe get away with less tension required on the felt.

I'd recommend demagging if you're experiencing any non obvious issues and most certainly if you think or don't know if it has been done in it's lifetime.

The differences I experienced were a definite improvement in tape travel and it improved in brightness but I also did it along with a basic service, cleaning the heads etc etc, so I attributed the improvements to both.
RE: tension. perhaps you could get away with less. when i was tweaking the tape head current i found that you can very quickly give too much and the result is a badly distorted recording.

what do you mean by tape travel?
Old 18th March 2014 | Show parent
  #37
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers ➡️
RE: tension. perhaps you could get away with less. when i was tweaking the tape head current i found that you can very quickly give too much and the result is a badly distorted recording.

what do you mean by tape travel?
Tape travel, just meaning across the heads and guide posts.

I'll go easy with any future electrical adjustments but stress anyone would want the unit perfectly aligned before needing to go inside.
Old 18th March 2014 | Show parent
  #38
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevee0303 ➡️
Tape travel, just meaning across the heads and guide posts.

I'll go easy with any future electrical adjustments but stress anyone would want the unit perfectly aligned before needing to go inside.
oh so nothing to do with magnetism
Old 18th March 2014 | Show parent
  #39
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers ➡️
oh so nothing to do with magnetism
Magnetism of the heads and guides is built up over time and causes them to attract the tape, which in turn will cause less clarity, more friction and less ease of the tape travelling smoothly across the heads.

Demagnetising them improved both the clarity and tape travel for me.
Old 19th March 2014
  #40
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🎧 5 years
Wow. you're stubborn Golden Beers. Why don't you do a little search to understand why a tape transport needs demagnetization? I'm too lazy, but there are definitely technical reasons why any tape path/heads (from cassette to 2" 24 track) require demagging. (Or is it a conspiracy created by Han-D-Mag?!!!) Anyway, if you've got the manual, have a look and see what it says about demagging.

Then report back instead of spewing nonsense.

I think it has something to do with maintaining proper fluxivity, but I haven't thought about it for a while...

Cheers!
Old 19th March 2014 | Show parent
  #41
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CthonicEwes ➡️
Wow. you're stubborn Golden Beers. Why don't you do a little search to understand why a tape transport needs demagnetization? I'm too lazy, but there are definitely technical reasons why any tape path/heads (from cassette to 2" 24 track) require demagging. (Or is it a conspiracy created by Han-D-Mag?!!!) Anyway, if you've got the manual, have a look and see what it says about demagging.

Then report back instead of spewing nonsense.

I think it has something to do with maintaining proper fluxivity, but I haven't thought about it for a while...

Cheers!
I probably am spewing nonsense, but just to say that the little research i have done is conflicting. i read just as much about demagnetizing in general being pointless as i do about it being worth while.

I think I'm asking reasonable questions and have an open mind on the matter. I'm not for or against, just asking questions.
This thread seems to be a good place for those questions
Old 19th March 2014 | Show parent
  #42
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers ➡️
I probably am spewing nonsense, but just to say that the little research i have done is conflicting. i read just as much about demagnetizing in general being pointless as i do about it being worth while.

I think I'm asking reasonable questions and have an open mind on the matter. I'm not for or against, just asking questions.
This thread seems to be a good place for those questions
Quite relevant 201 questions that would be good to hear others take on, for us and others to be able to see in the future, all in one nice little GS thread.
Old 22nd March 2014 | Show parent
  #43
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chet.d's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevee0303 ➡️
Gentlemen,

I can suggest you gently alter the amount of pressure on the felt that tensions the tape against the bearing. Adjusting this tightens up the tape a little more onto the heads.

It will result in instant/constant oscillation if you do it too tight and maybe excess strain on the motor, so you will need to get the balance just right.

This felt arm holder needs to adjusted if the felts either old or has been replaced, as with time the felt will be shaped to the bearing and lose tension.

How To:

Get something repetitive playing through the 201 (snare drum works well)

Set the selector knob to 4 (done right on 4 will let you oscillate on most settings)

Slacken off both screws on the felt holder (the tape tray side, not the copper arm)

Set the intensity knob to around 7? or wherever you would prefer it to start oscillating.

Gently apply finger pressure to the felt holder to build felt tension against the bearing, increase the pressure gently until you hear it start to oscillate.

You might need to have a slight angle on the holder and copper arm against the bearing.

With the correct pressure applied, tighten up the two holder screws and test if it still holds the oscillation above 7.

If not, keep adjusting it gently until you get it just right with just enough pressure to generate oscillation.

The only issue I've seen with this is that some loops have different splice tape and it can slow or stop the motor when going through the felt, fine balance indeed.

Another thing worth mentioning that I haven't needed to do yet is alter the adjustable sprung tape head screws.
The tape sits perfectly over the 5 heads but it may be worth checking your's are perfectly level while it's running, as this would upset echo and perhaps oscillation too.

I've just learned these things through trial and error but it seems like theirs a huge difference in tapes, some oscillate easily while others need to be tighter thus causing splice slowing/stopping issues. Old worn tapes have a bit more grit than a clean new one so keep your old loops.
I'm still trying to find the perfect tape loop but suspect I may have to buy and make my own.

Fwet - That 201 demagnetizing vid doesn't cover all points the tape comes into contact with, like in the pic. You shouldn't need it just yet but it would be a worthwhile purchase for keeping your 201 tip top in the future.
Very helpful & thanks for this.
I have to find some time between studio stuff to open her up and give it a try.
Old 27th March 2014
  #44
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🎧 5 years
I did the full service kit from echofix. Its actually very easy. I recommend it if you are not so technical, like myself.

I got lucky with this one, the owner only used it a few times and put it back in storage. The heads are excellent. No problems, everything went pretty smooth. It self oscillates!

I do think its worth it, to send Echofix broken space echoes. He seems to be the guy for Space Echo's
Old 29th March 2014 | Show parent
  #45
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fwet ➡️
I do think its worth it, to send Echofix broken space echoes. He seems to be the guy for Space Echo's
IMO worth it if you're not very far from Australia. That's some steep shipping.
I have only good words for Shane @echofix. He's helpful. I do wish there was a space echo guru type on the E US coast here though. Not aware of one, yet.

There's also that guy in Poland that supposedly does a great 201 refurb job but again, costly & fairly prohibitive shipping-wise.
Old 29th March 2014 | Show parent
  #46
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fwet ➡️
I did the full service kit from echofix. Its actually very easy. I recommend it if you are not so technical, like myself.

I got lucky with this one, the owner only used it a few times and put it back in storage. The heads are excellent. No problems, everything went pretty smooth. It self oscillates!

I do think its worth it, to send Echofix broken space echoes. He seems to be the guy for Space Echo's
You could try:

threewavemusic.com - Keyboard speciality store
They are in NJ USA and will fix ANYTHING synth or otherwise.
He can even fix a blown motor in the 201.
Old 29th March 2014 | Show parent
  #47
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🎧 10 years
The basic service is fairly straight forward for anyone to do and will normally get it up and running nicely. I'd say the need for a technician only arises when the motors needing repaired, or it has electrical issues.

The service manual goes into great details but just make sure everything's clean and aligned.
Old 29th March 2014 | Show parent
  #48
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevee0303 ➡️
The basic service is fairly straight forward for anyone to do and will normally get it up and running nicely. I'd say the need for a technician only arises when the motors needing repaired, or it has electrical issues.

The service manual goes into great details but just make sure everything's clean and aligned.
Going to try the tips you mentioned in your earlier post re; tensioning & the felt arms. Damn if I can just find the time! / will to open her up.
I suck at gear maintenance but must deal with it & appreciate the tips!
Old 29th March 2014 | Show parent
  #49
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d ➡️
Going to try the tips you mentioned in your earlier post re; tensioning & the felt arms. Damn if I can just find the time! / will to open her up.
I suck at gear maintenance but must deal with it & appreciate the tips!
Shouldn't take too long, an hour or so, mostly cleaning with 100% alcohol but it's worth a look through the service manual to get the general idea of what adjustments might need done.

Space Echo Service Manuals — Echo Fix
Old 6th April 2014 | Show parent
  #50
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevee0303 ➡️
Shouldn't take too long, an hour or so, mostly cleaning with 100% alcohol but it's worth a look through the service manual to get the general idea of what adjustments might need done.

Space Echo Service Manuals — Echo Fix
Spent some time running a snr through & applying further tension to the felt holder towards the bearing. Problem is, the felt bar is already screwed down as tight as possible.
Though it does enable "a bit" more oscillation, at that point the further pushing/tensioning seems like it's a ridiculous amount, or too much strain on the motor.
Appreciate the suggestions though.

Not sure where to go from here. Other than trying to summon magnanimity over a tech that I paid to fix the issue that is not concerned with responding, or helping to find a functioning resolve. Lesson learned there of course.

Old 6th April 2014 | Show parent
  #51
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d ➡️
Spent some time running a snr through & applying further tension to the felt holder towards the bearing. Problem is, the felt bar is already screwed down as tight as possible.
Though it does enable "a bit" more oscillation, at that point the further pushing/tensioning seems like it's a ridiculous amount, or too much strain on the motor.
Appreciate the suggestions though.

Not sure where to go from here. Other than trying to summon magnanimity over a tech that I paid to fix the issue that is not concerned with responding, or helping to find a functioning resolve. Lesson learned there of course.

I did not mess with the tension spring one bit. There are two sizes, 19mm and 22mm bearings. The tension spring should match the bearing size. If you need them, I have the dimensions for the 19mm I believe. You can take off the bearing and measure it, if the size is not stamped on there. If your tension spring or bearing ever got replaced, they might have mismatched sizes.
Old 8th May 2014 | Show parent
  #52
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🎧 10 years
So just a follow up,

Turns out I got bum tape. Bought new but must have been subjected to humidity in its travels.

Shane @echofix just sent me some his new batch & it's solid.
Thing self oscillates like a mutha now !
201 fun times.
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