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DSI Prophet 12 vs Prophet 08 + Nord Lead 2x
Old 27th November 2013
  #1
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Lenny_Laserdisc's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
DSI Prophet 12 vs Prophet 08 + Nord Lead 2x

Hi Slutz,

So i've finally saved enough money for the Prophet 12, but am now starting to think that the Prophet 08 + NL2x keys combo may be better value for money, what do you think? PS I don't yet have a poly in my hardware setup.
Old 27th November 2013
  #2
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cr73645's Avatar
 
8 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
I'm not comfortable on bashing the 12, but I think that if you like the 08 for it's sound (not only features), the 12 can't compete with it. Not that this is bad, but it doesn't sound like the 08. It's a different kind of beast. I really love the 08's sound, and that's why I've bought one. This doesn't mean that the 12 is not on my wishlist.

It's indeed a hard decision. I really think that the Prophet 12 is something apart from everything else and I enjoy the sound and features of it. In the end, it will depend on wich one you think sounds best. Stop thinking about features... focus on the sound. This is the best advice I can give you.

Cheers!
Old 27th November 2013
  #3
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenny_Laserdisc ➑️
Hi Slutz,

So i've finally saved enough money for the Prophet 12, but am now starting to think that the Prophet 08 + NL2x keys combo might be better value for money, what do you think? PS I don't yet have a poly in my hardware setup.
Nord Lead 2x is a great little VA that for some reason actually feels more organic than other VAs. It's characterized by a sort of reedy sound (know that's vague but it's true).

The Prophet 08 is a modern 8 voiced analog synth with DCOs which sounds tight and has a very smooth low pass filter. The result is that it's lacking the sort of "vibe" of VCO pollys with more characterful filters like Omega 8s but it's also thousands cheaper.

The Prophet 12 is hybrid with a slew of terrible demos but excellent reviews. I've never used one in person, but soundcloud has a number of very interesting demos and every major publication loves it.

I personally love the idea of the 12, but I'm a pipe dreamer. The more you can hear the happier you'll be with your final choice. But it's my guess that any sound that you can get on the 08 or NL2x you'll be able to get on the 12, it's just designed to be that flexible.
Old 27th November 2013
  #4
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Westlaker's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
How about a Prophet 08 and a Mutable Instruments Ambika? That way you get a full analog synth AND a hybrid for the price of the P12.
Old 27th November 2013
  #5
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EDGEK8D's Avatar
Iv'e spent a lot of time reading these P08 and P12 threads. I have spent a bit of time with a P08 and I quite like it. Not blown away, but I could see myself getting a lot of use out of it. I desperately wish I could link the P08 with my MEK to utilize the Evolvers distortion/feedback and such, but no this is not possible. The Evolvers and P08 share the same DCO's, same filters, and envelopes. As such I find the PEK a much more interesting instrument with a much larger palate than the P08. So for me its a matter of twice the voices versus the additional effects and digi-osc's. I love the MEK. It can do ridiculous amounts of stuff and I think everyone should at least have one if not the PEK, which if I got one would mean bye-bye to the MEK.

Now, I honestly think the P12 is in almost no way related to the previous synths I mentioned. It is a completely new direction. Yes I believe the LPFs are the same, but I'm not sure what else. There are no DCO's or digi-osc waveforms. They are Sharc DSP waveforms. I feel like DSI has made a bit of an attempt to keep this information on the down-low. Not hide it of course, but they haven't exactly been all excited blabbing all about it in the demos. Maybe they did and I just don't remember, but it seems like a lot of people around here are confused about what the P12 is packing in the oscillator department.

The demos sound less than amazing, but we all know that's a poor measuring stick. It seems that all of the major publications give it very high marks. And it seems the majority of people who have really spent time with one and/or own one, give it a huge thumbs up. Time will tell. Perhaps this is a new direction? Is this the future of subtractive synthesis? Is Access Virus going to come out with something that has analog filters to match the P12? What is Access thinking right now? Is the P12 VA? I haven't heard that but honestly it seems to be a competitor of the TI2 and in the same price bracket. Everybody seems to have a TI or TI2. Makes sense. Dave was around when analog got whooped by FM. I bet he remembers his company falling apart. I don't think it sounds analog. But I don't really care as long as it sounds good. Who knows, this P12 looks like it may be the Dirty Electro/Hard House screeching machine of the future? Whole genres may spring up or new directions may be taken if this synth is the game-changer some think it is. It also appears it can sound pristine and light. Flexible is what everybody seems to agree upon.

Bottom line: All of this stuff is very easy to sell. If you get any kind of deal on it at all, you will get almost all, if not all of it back. Pick one. If not happy, return or sell, and get the other. Congrats, whichever direction you go.
Old 27th November 2013 | Show parent
  #6
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Mefistophelees's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I agree with this:

Quote:
focus on the sound. This is the best advice I can give you.
...but completely disagree with this:

Quote:
if you like the 08 for it's sound (not only features), the 12 can't compete with it.
They're not exactly the same but the P12 can get very close to the P08 sounds.

It took me 2 years to figure out how to make the P08 sound vintage, it took about 5 minutes on the P12!
For analogue type sounds the P12 is better, it'll go much further than the P08.

Of course the P12 also does all sorts of other sounds as well from very digital to very analogue and everything in between. It can do a hybrid type sound but not PPG/Prophet VS hybrid, it's more of a digital with analogue oomph type sound.

BTW some demos are good but none of them show how far you can push it.
Old 27th November 2013 | Show parent
  #7
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Lenny_Laserdisc's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CfNorENa ➑️
How about a Prophet 08 and a Mutable Instruments Ambika? That way you get a full analog synth AND a hybrid for the price of the P12.
Im a little put off by the fact that the Ambika is DIY (not sure if its for me), but I just listened to a bunch of demos on youtube and was pretty impressed by the sound. Will have to investigate further!
Old 27th November 2013 | Show parent
  #8
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Lenny_Laserdisc's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGEK8D ➑️
Iv'e spent a lot of time reading these P08 and P12 threads. I have spent a bit of time with a P08 and I quite like it. Not blown away, but I could see myself getting a lot of use out of it. I desperately wish I could link the P08 with my MEK to utilize the Evolvers distortion/feedback and such, but no this is not possible. The Evolvers and P08 share the same DCO's, same filters, and envelopes. As such I find the PEK a much more interesting instrument with a much larger palate than the P08. So for me its a matter of twice the voices versus the additional effects and digi-osc's. I love the MEK. It can do ridiculous amounts of stuff and I think everyone should at least have one if not the PEK, which if I got one would mean bye-bye to the MEK.

Now, I honestly think the P12 is in almost no way related to the previous synths I mentioned. It is a completely new direction. Yes I believe the LPFs are the same, but I'm not sure what else. There are no DCO's or digi-osc waveforms. They are Sharc DSP waveforms. I feel like DSI has made a bit of an attempt to keep this information on the down-low. Not hide it of course, but they haven't exactly been all excited blabbing all about it in the demos. Maybe they did and I just don't remember, but it seems like a lot of people around here are confused about what the P12 is packing in the oscillator department.

The demos sound less than amazing, but we all know that's a poor measuring stick. It seems that all of the major publications give it very high marks. And it seems the majority of people who have really spent time with one and/or own one, give it a huge thumbs up. Time will tell. Perhaps this is a new direction? Is this the future of subtractive synthesis? Is Access Virus going to come out with something that has analog filters to match the P12? What is Access thinking right now? Is the P12 VA? I haven't heard that but honestly it seems to be a competitor of the TI2 and in the same price bracket. Everybody seems to have a TI or TI2. Makes sense. Dave was around when analog got whooped by FM. I bet he remembers his company falling apart. I don't think it sounds analog. But I don't really care as long as it sounds good. Who knows, this P12 looks like it may be the Dirty Electro/Hard House screeching machine of the future? Whole genres may spring up or new directions may be taken if this synth is the game-changer some think it is. It also appears it can sound pristine and light. Flexible is what everybody seems to agree upon.

Bottom line: All of this stuff is very easy to sell. If you get any kind of deal on it at all, you will get almost all, if not all of it back. Pick one. If not happy, return or sell, and get the other. Congrats, whichever direction you go.
I have definitely looked into the Polyevolver but again... there is a lack of good demos available on youtube. The most annoying part is that I live in Sydney, Australia and there isn't really anywhere I can go to demo these products, so I can only really go off of reviews and the manual.
Old 27th November 2013
  #9
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NEXUS-6's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I would get the P08 rack & Nord 2.. More variety ..
Old 27th November 2013
  #10
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🎧 10 years
Only you can decide what sounds good. But the Prophet 12 sounds really unappealing in every single demo that I have heard. Something just isn't right with the oscillators. There isn't any dynamism to the sound (which is weird considering all the oscillator morph functions available in the P12).

But to each his own.
Old 27th November 2013
  #11
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cr73645's Avatar
 
8 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
@Mefistophelees
I'd like to listen such demonstrations. Didn't find anything that can sound quite like the 08 coming from the 12. I'm not saying "more analog sound", but the 08 kind of sound. It's something that I find "unique"... it's the 08 sound, and "me like it".

Can you send me link/files to some demos PM?



Well... my advice is the same Lenny. Start thinking about the sound.
Old 27th November 2013
  #12
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EDGEK8D's Avatar
Sounds like shipping will be a pain. Just get the P12 and be done. It's like sports. You draft the best player you can get regardless of what position they play or what needs you have. The P12 is the first pick in the draft, today.
Old 27th November 2013
  #13
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🎧 10 years
Why not buy one at a time and make your choice from there?
Old 27th November 2013
  #14
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🎧 5 years
P12, all the people not liking are basing off demos. Get one and play it for a month. It'll blow you away
Old 27th November 2013
  #15
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Lenny_Laserdisc's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Good news... just made a few phone calls and found out that there is one P12 in stock not far from here. May give it a test run tomorrow and then see where my heads at.
Old 27th November 2013
  #16
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shadowfac's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I've owned the P08 and currently have a NR2x. They're a great combo, but given the choice, I'd get the Prophet 12 in a heartbeat - blindly. It has an amazing architecture that could go well beyond both the P08 and NL2x in terms of sound design. Very few hardwired synths (including VAs) are so well-featured, and this one even has some analog components. It also has plenty of realtime controllers that can make it a very expressive instrument. And more importantly, it has decimation, which is like the coolest effect ever (IMHO).

You can later add a Tetra or a Nord Rack, both of which are relatively cheap, if you want to expand your sonic palette. But when are you ever going to save enough for a synth beast? Don't get cold feet, be a man and stick to your plan
Old 27th November 2013
  #17
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfac ➑️
I've owned the P08 and currently have a NR2x. They're a great combo, but given the choice, I'd get the Prophet 12 in a heartbeat - blindly. It has an amazing architecture that could go well beyond both the P08 and NL2x in terms of sound design. Very few hardwired synths (including VAs) are so well-featured, and this one even has some analog components. It also has plenty of realtime controllers that can make it a very expressive instrument. And more importantly, it has decimation, which is like the coolest effect ever (IMHO).

You can later add a Tetra or a Nord Rack, both of which are relatively cheap, if you want to expand your sonic palette. But when are you ever going to save enough for a synth beast? Don't get cold feet, be a man and stick to your plan
Haha. Yes!
Old 27th November 2013 | Show parent
  #18
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BenDayho's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mefistophelees ➑️
It took me 2 years to figure out how to make the P08 sound vintage, it took about 5 minutes on the P12!
For analogue type sounds the P12 is better, it'll go much further than the P08.
@OP
+1 on sound over features. p08 + nord sounds like you would have a lot of ground covered. I'm always one to favor variety over "one synth to rule them all" only because it never really does in practice. But enjoy the tryout on the p12 and let us know how you get on!

@mfistophelees
Can you unpack your statement a little bit? Was it the character section that helped do this so quickly? or the mod assignements? or both? Anytips on wrangling the p08? I use to have a p08, long time ago, sold it, wondering if I should buy it again or save up for p12.
Old 27th November 2013
  #19
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Synth80s's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I have a P08 Desktop and had, until not long ago, a Nord Rack 2X. My input:

-----

The P08 is, somewhat oddly, one of the more controversial synths of recent times which I think derives from the Dave Smith lineage and Prophet name. Were it to come from another designer and be called something else, I think it would be more widely heralded for what it is, but it inevitably suffers from comparison, whether fair or not, with its predecessors.

The P08 is a very capable synth, but you have to know going in that it's largely a clean, modern sounding analog synth that's fairly distinct from what many people think of when someone says "analog," especially if they harken back to the sound of polysynths from the 70s and 80s. As a previous poster mentioned, you have to work at it to make it sound "analog" in the more vintage definition. If you don't have any preconceived notions of what analog sounds like, you might just love the P08 all around. If you're looking for vintage analog sounds, prepare to put in the time to find the sweet spots which I believe are in there to a large degree, especially when the P08 is used with analog outboard gear to "rough up" the cleanliness a bit.

The primary weakness of the P08 IMO is the relatively inflexible filter. For whatever reason, the resonance in 2-pole mode is simply weak. In 4-pole mode, it can get pretty juicy and interesting, especially when the filter modulation is used, but it's definitely not in the league of any of the classic filters that define many great analog synths. I'm not saying it's terrible, but since the P08 has a single filter, you'd better make sure you like it because there's no getting away from it or making it into something it's not.

-----

The Nord 2X, it is an excellent bread and butter synth for covering a lot of bases. I used to keep it close at hand for quickly programming parts when I was composing/recording and didn't want to lose momentum. With 20 voices and 4 part multi-timbrality, it is a straight up workhorse and the UI is excellent for fast programming. The unison mode (which does not take away from polyphony, BTW) is an excellent feature.

The flip side of the Nord 2X's straightforward simplicity and ease of use is its relative lack of programming depth. In short, it's not a terribly deep synth. Then again, neither are synths like the Junos, etc. but they make up for it in raw sound quality. While I don't intend to slag on the Nord 2X, I didn't think it sounded special in any particular way. The oscillators are good, but they're also a bit generic and they don't have a ton of punch. Similarly, the filter is middle of the road -- good, but nothing special with one exception: the Notch + LPF mode is really cool and I probably used it 50% of the time.

All in all, the Nord 2X didn't have long-term staying power for me because I found that, after using it to get a song going quickly, I would often replace the Nord parts with something else. I will say that the Nord 2X seemed to sit very well in a mix with ease -- no effects needed much of the time -- but it didn't do anything that really stood out. For my purposes, I already options for bread and butter parts, so the Nord was superfluous for me and I sold it to someone who really likes it.

-----

As for the P12, I haven't played one yet, but I've been digging into the architecture and audio examples quite a bit of late. Your decision really depends on your priorities. Questions to ask yourself:

-- Are you looking for a lot of sonic variety at the expense of polyphony/simultaneous parts or do you need to play a lot of parts at the same time?

-- Do you have a programmer's mindset and would you have the inclination/time to dig into a deep synth or do you think you'd mostly use presets and tweak them to taste?

-- Do you have any specific idea of the sounds you're after from a poly or do you just want something flexible that you can grow into?

If I were in your situation, I would probably take a P12 over a P08 + Nord 2. Why? The P12 has a lot more sonic flexibility and depth, and that matters most to me because I usually play/record one part at a time and focus on each part quite a bit. To put it bluntly, the combination of a P08 + Nord 2 can't do much of what a P12 can do, but I think a P12 could cover the vast majority of the ground that the P08 and Nord 2 offer. It's not just that the P12 is the new shiny object, it's that it represents an excellent hybrid of the analog and digital worlds whereas the P08 and Nord 2 are fairly straightforward analog-ish offerings.

I've loved analog subtractive synthesis for longer than I care to mention, but at some point you reach a stage with almost any synth when you wish it offered more waveforms, another filter, more modulation options, etc. and that's basically the evolution that the P12 represents from the analog polys and VAs of recent times. Similar in concept, but it offers more of everything so you're less likely to outgrow it or tire of it.
Old 27th November 2013 | Show parent
  #20
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Synth80s's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDayho ➑️
@OP
+1 on sound over features. p08 + nord sounds like you would have a lot of ground covered. I'm always one to favor variety over "one synth to rule them all" only because it never really does in practice. But enjoy the tryout on the p12 and let us know how you get on!

@mfistophelees
Can you unpack your statement a little bit? Was it the character section that helped do this so quickly? or the mod assignements? or both? Anytips on wrangling the p08? I use to have a p08, long time ago, sold it, wondering if I should buy it again or save up for p12.
Yes, I would also be very interested in hearing more about your expereince here as well. I've spent a lot of time and energy finding the sweet spots that make the P08 sound closer to a vintage analog synth. Perhaps we should start a separate thread on that topic!
Old 27th November 2013 | Show parent
  #21
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth80s ➑️
If I were in your situation, I would probably take a P12 over a P08 + Nord 2. Why? The P12 has a lot more sonic flexibility and depth, and that matters most to me because I usually play/record one part at a time and focus on each part quite a bit. To put it bluntly, the combination of a P08 + Nord 2 can't do much of what a P12 can do, but I think a P12 could cover the vast majority of the ground that the P08 and Nord 2 offer. It's not just that the P12 is the new shiny object, it's that it represents an excellent hybrid of the analog and digital worlds whereas the P08 and Nord 2 are fairly straightforward analog-ish offerings.
Very thoughtful and intelligent post. :-)

My problem with the Prophet 12 is that it features the same relatively weak lowpass filter from the Prophet '08 and then marries this to a set of digital oscillators that just don't sound that good. So you don't gain much in terms of filtering (except for the resonant highpass filter) but lose a lot of the warmth and depth in the oscillator department.

Incidentally, I do think going with digital oscillators was the right move, at least in theory. The range of sounds (e.g., FM, morphing oscillators, etc.) is so much greater than what analog offers. I just don't think DSI did a very good job with the oscillator algorithms, that's all.

The Waldorf Rocket (of all things) is a good example of how to merge digital oscillators with an analog filter to create a great sounding synth. So it's not impossible.
Old 27th November 2013
  #22
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Firechild's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The problem with the Prophet 08 is that the filters are sounding kind of boring , no character. However the oscillators are pretty good but you have to put the slop parameter at max to have some analog drifting. Not much but better than nothing.
I own the P08 module but not using it much anymore because I have other analog synths that I prefer, however it is sounding way better than any VA plugin.
But if you put lame sounding VA oscillators also with huge problems with aliasing combined with a boring analog filter you get... the Prophet 12...
So I am afraid I canΒ΄t recommend the Prophet 12.
I would go for 4 Slim Phatties instead for a poly setup and you can also add a Moog CP-251 for an extra LFO and White Noise source.
Old 27th November 2013
  #23
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Synth Buddha's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Agreed, Firechild. I find the DSI filters to be rather boring. Weirds me out that these guys don't use something else. I find it a bit tragic, to be honest.
Old 27th November 2013 | Show parent
  #24
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firechild ➑️
I would go for 4 Slim Phatties instead for a poly setup
Or (you should know) get a 4 voice CODE, or a six voice Omega (perhaps 2nd hand) which has a filter that blows out DSI's filter, plus it has a far superior 2 pole lowpass, not to mention highpass, bandpass and notch.
Old 27th November 2013 | Show parent
  #25
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth Buddha ➑️
Agreed, Firechild. I find the DSI filters to be rather boring. Weirds me out that these guys don't use something else. I find it a bit tragic, to be honest.
As I understand it, the Curtis "synth-on-a-chip" part that DSI uses is the only affordable option that allows the company to offer an 8-voice poly for $2K. Using discrete filter boards would put the Prophet '08 in the Studio Electronics Omega 8 $5K range. That's the trade-off - use an integrated chip that sounds just okay (and which mere mortals can afford) or go all out and appeal only to the ultra high end of the market.
Old 27th November 2013 | Show parent
  #26
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Maven ➑️
As I understand it, the Curtis "synth-on-a-chip" part that DSI uses is the only affordable option that allows the company to offer an 8-voice poly for $2K. Using discrete filter boards would put the Prophet '08 in the Studio Electronics Omega 8 $5K range. That's the trade-off - use an integrated chip that sounds just okay (and which mere mortals can afford) or go all out and appeal only to the ultra high end of the market.
I don't get this "mere mortals" thing. I'm a mere mortal. I'm not making that much money (i'm no high rank manager or something. Just a high school teacher with a serious hobby\passion). I see people here gather small synths, drum machines etc over the course of a few years - and they end up with 5k worth of equipment just as much. Only instead of a "big one" - they end up with 5 "small ones". But the money's the same. I prefer one or two good polys, and two monos, and strive to have the best that i can afford - rather than buying small stuff which will eventually amount to the same sum of money. Have you stopped for a second to evaluate how much is the gear you bought until now worth?
Old 27th November 2013
  #27
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
own a prophet 12 and a nord lead 4. like both very much and it depend on how much time you spend with!
but i see its time to build a real analog polyphonic synth you can afford, i work for MFB company so we are still developing the dominion 5 maybe i do some demos between the three, add a jupiter 4 to show what are differences in sound.
Old 27th November 2013 | Show parent
  #28
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zahush76 ➑️
Have you stopped for a second to evaluate how much is the gear you bought until now worth?
Your question is a little patronizing. But yes, I of course know how much I have spent on my equipment (although sometimes I would prefer not to know). Let's just say that it's a lot of money (well beyond $5K). I'm fortunate to be able to afford an Omega 8. I just can't justify the expense. I would rather own a number of synths so that I can run everything live over MIDI and not record parts to disk. That's more important to me than having a single top-of-the-line synth. Plus there is the fact that I just don't think the Omega 8 is worth the money. It's cool and all. Just not $5K cool, IMO.
Old 27th November 2013 | Show parent
  #29
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Maven ➑️
Your question is a little patronizing.
I really don't think it's patronizing. The rest of your answer just proves that it's relevant for the point you were trying to prove about "synths for mere mortals".

Quote:
I'm fortunate to be able to afford an Omega 8. I just can't justify the expense.
So it's not a matter of being a "mere mortal" or not.

Quote:
I would rather own a number of synths so that I can run everything live over MIDI and not record parts to disk.
If you can afford an Omega (just as an example) but rather spend it on other synths - than it's a matter of your taste and preferences. You chose not to buy an Omega 8 - not because you can't (or because you're a "mere mortal") but because you have other preferences.

Btw, i don't understand that bit about running everything live over midi. The Omega is 8 part multi timberal so you can record a 5 note pad, one bass, one lead and one arp\seq kind of sound at the same time (or 8 mono sounds, or one 8 poly pad or anything in between).

Quote:
That's more important to me than having a single top-of-the-line synth.
Yet another proof from your own words that the reason isn't because it's out of your reach - but because you have other priorities and preferences.

Quote:
Plus there is the fact that I just don't think the Omega 8 is worth the money. It's cool and all. Just not $5K cool, IMO.
And yet another proof from your own words that it's a matter of taste in synts rather about if you can afford it or not.
Old 27th November 2013
  #30
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GeminIAm's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I'm a mere mortal who can't even afford a minibrute!

Anyway, I think the p08 is a decent synth but it hasn't blown me away. Perhaps going for a 'safe' vintage synth like a juno 60 would be an idea.
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