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Minitaur: Software envelopes?
Old 9th July 2013
  #1
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Krubbadoo's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Minitaur: Software envelopes?

Hello.
We had fun listening to a friend's Minitaur yesterday.
Are the envelopes software ? We all thought it's a nice little synth. Too bad for the limited range but still a cool 'Moog' tone.
Old 9th July 2013
  #2
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Spectral Climax's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I don't think so. Moog make everything analog in their synths..
Old 9th July 2013 | Show parent
  #3
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golden beers's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
No idea, but I presume it's all hardware. just posted in this thread to ask you a question:

OP: what difference does it make to you personally, either way?


not trying to be confrontational, just a question
Old 9th July 2013 | Show parent
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers ➑️
OP: what difference does it make to you personally, either way?
good point!
Old 9th July 2013
  #5
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🎧 10 years
I can't speak for the Minitaur or the OP's opinion, but I've often found analogue envelopes (along with filters of course) to be what one of the main things that give an analogue synth its flavor. I had the Dark Energy and its envelopes were remarkably snappy and I haven't come across a digital envelope like it. Just my two cents, but I can understand someone wanting analogue envelopes.
Old 9th July 2013
  #6
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No difference at all. I just thought they souded really good and was wondering.
Don't worry, I won't start a confrontation for such a light manner.
Old 9th July 2013
  #7
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🎧 5 years
Not as snappy as the CEM3310 to my ears, but gets the job done. I would not be surprised if they are digital. Having said that, I love my Moog Minitaur.
Old 9th July 2013 | Show parent
  #8
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golden beers's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krubbadoo ➑️
No difference at all. I just thought they souded really good and was wondering.
Don't worry, I won't start a confrontation for such a light manner.
i see.

it's like that old saying, if it sounds good it is good.
Old 9th July 2013
  #9
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I can't speak for the Minitaur, but I do know that the EGs in the Taurus 3 are software EGs.
Old 9th July 2013 | Show parent
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real MC ➑️
I can't speak for the Minitaur, but I do know that the EGs in the Taurus 3 are software EGs.
!!! Now, that's something I didn't expect!
Old 9th July 2013 | Show parent
  #11
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectral Climax ➑️
!!! Now, that's something I didn't expect!
I guess most if not all modern analogs that have memory / digital control over parameters have digital modulation sources (envelopes and LFOs). Maybe Voyager or some other highend synth has analog envs. Lets say you want to control VCA and VCF cutoff with with single ADSR envelope. In that case, you need voltage controled envelope circuit, one (or two) VCAs for mod amount and 5 (or 6) DACs. In case you go down the digi mod sources you simply need two DACs, and you can start to pile on top additional mod sources, add mod matrix and stuff like that as long as MCU on board is fast enough. Digital-Mod approach is clearly way cheaper, especialy if you want to throw ****load of features in and keep price reasonable, like in case of Mopho for example.

edit: in case of ol' school / nomemory analogs, like Minibrute for example, situation is somewhat reverse. Average non voltage controled envelope circuit or LFO are actually quite simple and cheap, cheaper sometimes than single high quality potentiometer, so there is no point to use digi mod sources.

eidt2: I've overestimated number of dacs for analog digitaly controlled envelope, you need one DAC for segment time and one for level, so difference comapred to digi envelop case is not as dramatic
Old 9th July 2013 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recnsci ➑️
I guess most if not all modern analogs that have memory / digital control over parameters have digital modulation sources (envelopes and LFOs). Maybe Voyager or some other highend synth has analog envs.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any Moog has digital envelopes/LFOs. Not even the Sub-phatty which has memory and gives you midi-over-USB control of every parameter.

T
Old 9th July 2013 | Show parent
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by twelsch42 ➑️
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any Moog has digital envelopes/LFOs. Not even the Sub-phatty which has memory and gives you midi-over-USB control of every parameter.

T
I helped Moog with the Taurus 3 prior to release and can assure you that the envelopes are digital.

Any LFO that can be synced to MIDI clock is digital, you can't do that with an analog LFO. This would include the T3, Phatty, MF108M, MF104M.
Old 9th July 2013 | Show parent
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real MC ➑️
Any LFO that can be synced to MIDI clock is digital
There's the answer, no need to go further... -Thread-
Old 10th July 2013
  #15
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🎧 10 years
Current Moog synths with hardware (discrete transistor) envelopes: Voyager, Little Phatty, Slim Phatty.

Current Moog synths with software envelopes (which still have analog filters after the envelope CV is generated): Minitaur, Sub Phatty.

come to think of it there are probably about as many analog components in the software envelopes as in the "hardware" ones... there is a fairly kickass analog filter on every digitally-generated CV, to make sure that the voltage output is as smooth as any analog signal. Then of course those CVs are controlling fully analog VCA and VCF circuits.

What it's really coming down to now is that it's much easier to do crazy extended tricks (like looping, velocity sensitivity, keyboard tracking...) with software envelopes, and as long as you do the extra work they'll come out sounding as smooth and snappy as the all-hardware kind.
Old 10th July 2013 | Show parent
  #16
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by controlvoltage ➑️
Current Moog synths with hardware (discrete transistor) envelopes: Voyager, Little Phatty, Slim Phatty.

Current Moog synths with software envelopes (which still have analog filters after the envelope CV is generated): Minitaur, Sub Phatty.

come to think of it there are probably about as many analog components in the software envelopes as in the "hardware" ones... there is a fairly kickass analog filter on every digitally-generated CV, to make sure that the voltage output is as smooth as any analog signal. Then of course those CVs are controlling fully analog VCA and VCF circuits.

What it's really coming down to now is that it's much easier to do crazy extended tricks (like looping, velocity sensitivity, keyboard tracking...) with software envelopes, and as long as you do the extra work they'll come out sounding as smooth and snappy as the all-hardware kind.

I knew it! I remembered that Little Phatty was an all-analog synth. Anyway, it also seems like a measure to bring down the price, so it's good as long as it works just like a good hardware envelope. It was about time for Moog to take that decision.
Old 10th July 2013
  #17
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And here's a track with the Minitaur doing lots of patches, including the bassline.

Old 10th July 2013 | Show parent
  #18
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by controlvoltage ➑️
What it's really coming down to now is that it's much easier to do crazy extended tricks (like looping, velocity sensitivity, keyboard tracking...) with software envelopes, and as long as you do the extra work they'll come out sounding as smooth and snappy as the all-hardware kind.
Todays MPUs are fast enough to get snappy software envelopes. That wasn't true back in the 80s.

The Moog Source has an interesting EG design. It is an analog transient generator with two CV inputs - rate and level. The circuit generates a single transient, the CPU monitors the output and varies rate/level CVs to generate the separate ADSR stages. Software control, analog output, not restricted to four stage ADSR, only two CVs required, and you could the extended tricks normally done with software envelopes (looping, velocity, key tracking, etc).

Rather novel and simple design, I am surprised that it was never patented.
Old 11th July 2013 | Show parent
  #19
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rids's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nectarios ➑️
And here's a track with the Minitaur doing lots of patches, including the bassline.

Great song showing off the Minitaur! Curious what external effects you used and on how many of the sounds in there. Some of the sounds seemed like they were overdriven, but I didn't think the Minitaur had overdrive.
Old 11th July 2013 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nectarios ➑️
And here's a track with the Minitaur doing lots of patches, including the bassline.

Really enjoyed that track
Old 11th July 2013
  #21
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Cheerio. The overdrive on the sounds comes from my Moogfoogers. Especially the MF-103 and off course the overdrive of the Slim Phatty.
External FX used are the Moog MF-102. MF-103, MF-108, ProCO RAT 2 and Big Muff Pi Bass where used for the small x0x parts. Delays and reverbs are Logic's native plugs.
Old 11th July 2013
  #22
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Oh so some of those sounds were Slim Phatty? Or did you mean the Minitaur was processed by the Slim?
Old 11th July 2013
  #23
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Both, the Slim Phatty works a treat as overdrive for the Minitaur, but there are also lots of Slim Phatty sounds in there
Old 12th July 2013
  #24
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And here's some late night noodlings... not writting any music but just enjoying the sound of it until the morning hours.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=3&theater


And a jam that I had controlling the Minitaur via GATE/CV from my x0xb0x, that ended into that track I posted here.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=3&theater
Old 15th July 2013 | Show parent
  #25
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by controlvoltage ➑️
Current Moog synths with software envelopes (which still have analog filters after the envelope CV is generated): Minitaur, Sub Phatty.

come to think of it there are probably about as many analog components in the software envelopes as in the "hardware" ones... there is a fairly kickass analog filter on every digitally-generated CV, to make sure that the voltage output is as smooth as any analog signal. Then of course those CVs are controlling fully analog VCA and VCF circuits.
Are the sofware envelopes at standard "audio rates" (i.e. 44.1/48kHz), with a standard fixed filter in the D/A convertor?
Old 15th July 2013 | Show parent
  #26
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello ➑️
Are the sofware envelopes at standard "audio rates" (i.e. 44.1/48kHz), with a standard fixed filter in the D/A convertor?
nothing standard about 'em. custom filters. faster rates.
Old 15th July 2013 | Show parent
  #27
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by controlvoltage ➑️
nothing standard about 'em. custom filters. faster rates.
What is the modulation update rate then? I know the Pulse is 523Hz and the Shruthi is 1kHz. The Minitaur sounds very smooth in the demos I've heard.
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