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Lexicon verbs... without using verb algorithms! (GREAT CLIPS ! ! !) - Gearspace.com
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Lexicon verbs... without using verb algorithms! (GREAT CLIPS ! ! !)
Old 20th May 2013
  #1
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Lexicon verbs... without using verb algorithms! (GREAT CLIPS ! ! !)

Here's a collection of spectacular sounds the PCM80/81 *ONLY* is capable of. No go for PCM70/PCM90/91.
I have designed several completely new Spaces and Delays, inspired from the Korg DL8000R recent works:
Italo de Angelis
You may want to listen them first to get the point.

You have never heard these types of reverbs from a Lexicon unit before, ever.
These are some samples from them.

SPACE1
The width and depth of this space is just amazing. Rise and fall curves are different from normal verb.
https://soundcloud.com/italoop/space...lexicon-reverb

SPACE2
This one is darker... and uses the internal surround processing. Headphones on and you'll hear the spinning.
https://soundcloud.com/italoop/space...lexicon-reverb

SPACE4
Large space with nice modulation. Different from the previous ones.
https://soundcloud.com/italoop/space...lexicon-reverb

AMBIENT GTR2
MultiTaps delays with nice modulation. Notice the panning in softer passages.
https://soundcloud.com/italoop/ambient-gtr2

BIOSPHERE
Another space where delays are glided for verb modulation and hicut swept to change the tonal response of the verb.
https://soundcloud.com/italoop/biosphere

BIOMORPHVERB
Here the space has many things going on:
glided delays for modulation, hicut swept, post delays feedback envelope controlled and slight dynamic surround going on too...
https://soundcloud.com/italoop/biomorphverb

BIODELAYS2
Delays... chorused, glided, LFO_filtered. Flangy textures.
https://soundcloud.com/italoop/bio-delays2

Enjoy!

I
Old 20th May 2013
  #2
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spaceman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Lovely, sounds great. Especially the first example.
I had a PCM81 for a short while, long time ago. Always thought it had an edge over the other PCM models for "spacier" environments because of the combination Delay+Reverb, even if the 91 had more complete reverb algorithms.
This almost makes me want to get a used 81 again...
Old 20th May 2013
  #3
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TheBrightSide's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
They sound great.
Old 20th May 2013 | Show parent
  #4
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceman ➑️
Lovely, sounds great. Especially the first example.
I had a PCM81 for a short while, long time ago. Always thought it had an edge over the other PCM models for "spacier" environments because of the combination Delay+Reverb, even if the 91 had more complete reverb algorithms.
This almost makes me want to get a used 81 again...

Remember... there's NO verb algorithms used here. Just delays!
Old 20th May 2013 | Show parent
  #5
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
stunning fx , this has not done my desire for a pcm81 any good ..
Old 20th May 2013 | Show parent
  #6
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spaceman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by italo de angelis ➑️
Remember... there's NO verb algorithms used here. Just delays!
Ah... Another thumbs up then !
Old 20th May 2013
  #7
t_d
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t_d's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
these are pretty fantastic... very eventide!
Old 20th May 2013 | Show parent
  #8
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by t_d ➑️
these are pretty fantastic... very eventide!

Thanks!
Then you may like many of these:
Italo de Angelis

TONS of audio clips!

Old 20th May 2013
  #9
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SWAN808's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
sounds cool man - FYI you can embedd soundcloud into your posts:



Just press the soundcloud logo above the post and put the web address in there
Old 20th May 2013
  #10
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OurDarkness's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Italo, this is awesome stuff, very spacey and... Eventide-ish!

Me likes a lot.

PS. I get ultra inspired by your presets in the H8000-FW.
Old 20th May 2013 | Show parent
  #11
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 ➑️
sounds cool man - FYI you can embedd soundcloud into your posts:



Just press the soundcloud logo above the post and put the web address in there
Thanks. Not sure I understand how you do that.
Old 20th May 2013 | Show parent
  #12
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OurDarkness ➑️
Italo, this is awesome stuff, very spacey and... Eventide-ish!

Me likes a lot.

PS. I get ultra inspired by your presets in the H8000-FW.


THANK YOU!
Yes, some Tide waves are in there, but the sound has its Lexi flavor...
All delays based...no verb at all.

cheers
Old 20th May 2013
  #13
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Yoozer's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Allow me to assist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by italo de angelis ➑️














See attachment for how you can do this; all the SoundCloud button does is add those (soundcloud) tags.

Stunning work, by the way! So - 8 taps is already enough to achieve this kind of diffusion effect? I must try this with a group of delays as well, then.
Attached Thumbnails
Lexicon verbs... without using verb algorithms! (GREAT CLIPS ! ! !)-howtoembed.jpg  
Old 20th May 2013 | Show parent
  #14
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer ➑️
Allow me to assist.



See attachment for how you can do this; all the SoundCloud button does is add those (soundcloud) tags.

Stunning work, by the way! So - 8 taps is already enough to achieve this kind of diffusion effect? I must try this with a group of delays as well, then.

Thanks.
I don't get how the Soundcloud button does that. Which is the button?


Yes, 8 delays can do that but you need a complex feedback path and filters in it. 8 separate delays won't do it.
Old 20th May 2013
  #15
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Ok! Got it. You mean the Soundcloud button in the message composing window. It adds the 2 headers where you have to drop the clip url in between.
Cool!
Thanks
I
Old 22nd May 2013
  #16
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🎧 15 years
master at work ...
Old 22nd May 2013
  #17
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
You know..

some people are confused, probably, by the title of this thread.

The effects you hear in the Space audioclips *is* reverb. I'm not playing with words and concepts here. The point I'm trying to make is that these reverbs are not created using the classic Lexicon Hall, Chamber, Plate, Room, etc. algorithms.
These reverbs are Multitap delays based, pretty much like the Eventide plex or diffusors or the Korg DL8000R multitap delay. The good news is that this approach to reverberant spaces was never heard before on a Lexicon unit. Why?
-Maybe because Lexicon is famous for its great verbs and anyone using a Lex goes for their verb algorithms in the first place?
-Maybe because their multitaps structures were never explained/advertised/presented as *multitaps* like in other devices... so people never tried them in the way I did...?
-Maybe because most people don't care searching about other possibilities?
Who really knows. I tend to believe it's a mix of all these factors and mostly a static academic concept of Lexicon products the company has never gone beyond and most users have accepted as a fact. Lexicon means reverb from their classic great algorithms, period!
Playing with delays in multitaps or plex arrays is a great fun! We've heard a lot of these spaces from Eventide products (which is definitely more explanatory than most other companies on these sounds) and from the Korg DL8000R. Now I found out the Lexicon PCM80/81 can do that too! The PCM70 can do this in a very rough and more simplified way which won't sound as good. Probably the 224 and 480 can do some of this. But the 80/81 are wonders at this, owing to a particular morphology in their Chorus algorithm... yes verb from chorus!
So... yes it's reverb, but it's a different one you won't easily get from just any unit, and not from other Lexicons! It's a particular kind of reverb, different envelope, stereo spread, center depth and filtering.
Typical of ambient music, it calls for specific ways you play the instrument, particularly a guitar with its VERY dynamic and interactive way the musician has with it.
Simply *another* reverb... and very musical.
Old 22nd May 2013 | Show parent
  #18
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowudders ➑️
master at work ...
Or "trying to master the work"?

Old 22nd May 2013
  #19
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🎧 10 years
You mention these presets are only for the Lexicon PCM81, but can similar things be achieved with a Lexicon PCM70 or it lacks the necessary algorithms?
Old 22nd May 2013 | Show parent
  #20
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by paugui ➑️
You mention these presets are only for the Lexicon PCM81, but can similar things be achieved with a Lexicon PCM70 or it lacks the necessary algorithms?
The Pcm70 can be able to do something similar but it lacks a lot of aspects the 80/81 have. It has less delay lines, limited modulation of them, etc.
Old 22nd May 2013
  #21
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clusterchord's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Italo, very nice work.. never thought 80/81 could do this.

btw have you ever done something for the PCM80/81 utilizing the the dual fx card? on the 81 since it has the pitch card onboard already, adding a dualfx card should open some new posibilities too.

i was always on the verge of buying a 81. but wasn't sure if next to Orville and Lexicons 300 and 70, it would bring something significant to the table. i loved some demos with synths,, it seems to work nice with them. esp synth lead patches with reverb fed into ping pong delay. and, even tho Orville can do it, the PCM has a disticntly different flavor. ..

any thoughts on this?






PS thank you for the work you've done on the Orville/7k series algos and presets.. im an avid user. i was looking at the Fx Soundworks area with Orville collections... are these available for download, or to buy? i couldnt find a link,,, only pdfs and audio demos.

thanks
Old 22nd May 2013 | Show parent
  #22
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord ➑️
Italo, very nice work.. never thought 80/81 could do this.

btw have you ever done something for the PCM80/81 utilizing the the dual fx card? on the 81 since it has the pitch card onboard already, adding a dualfx card should open some new posibilities too.

i was always on the verge of buying a 81. but wasn't sure if next to Orville and Lexicons 300 and 70, it would bring something significant to the table. i loved some demos with synths,, it seems to work nice with them. esp synth lead patches with reverb fed into ping pong delay. and, even tho Orville can do it, the PCM has a disticntly different flavor. ..

any thoughts on this?






PS thank you for the work you've done on the Orville/7k series algos and presets.. im an avid user. i was looking at the Fx Soundworks area with Orville collections... are these available for download, or to buy? i couldnt find a link,,, only pdfs and audio demos.

thanks

I own a PCM80 from day one it came to the market, along with Orville, 2 H8000, Eclipse, H3000, DL8000R, TC2290, etc...
I would NEVER part from it. It breaks down...I'm on the market to buy another one in the same day. I also own all the cards, including the Dual FX.
It's an amazing card as it adds free routing of the 2 DSPs, any combinations of the 5 verbs w/the 5 fx and a nice Eq. You loose two delays though! That's the cost in terms of DSP resources to get these variations.
The unit has its own sound and unfortunately most presets give the idea of a very "rushed off" the door product. Well programmed it does AMAZING things, really. It can stay next to anything and do its own dirty job without fear.

You're welcome! Doing those presets was fun, back then. I'm on my own now, doing even better stuff on those amazing units!
You can contact me thru my web interface and I'll send you all the info:
Italo de Angelis

cheers

I
Old 22nd May 2013
  #23
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I have a Korg SDD-3300 triple digital delay that could be a good tool to experiment with delay-based reverb processing. Its capability of fractional delay in the under-10-ms domain would just invite this kind of stuff. Some of the factory patches are crude reflection sounds (tails are metallic). Are there any documents or papers that explain the architectures of delay-based ambience generators?
Old 22nd May 2013
  #24
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spaceman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Italo, do you think the multitap delays/chorus in the Lexicon PCM Native Effects bundle ( not the reverb bundle ) could be used the same way to recreate your reverbs ? Have you tried them ?
It's these : PCM Native Effects Plug-in Bundle | Lexicon Pro - Legendary Reverb and Effects
Old 22nd May 2013 | Show parent
  #25
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real MC ➑️
I have a Korg SDD-3300 triple digital delay that could be a good tool to experiment with delay-based reverb processing. Its capability of fractional delay in the under-10-ms domain would just invite this kind of stuff. Some of the factory patches are crude reflection sounds (tails are metallic). Are there any documents or papers that explain the architectures of delay-based ambience generators?
Unfortunately that is not enough and too crude for real ambience work.
You need at least 4 delays per side, so 8 in stereo, modulation on all delay lines, good filters in the feedback paths (better if you also have filters before the delays), normal or crossfeedback paths.
More cool options are filters AND feedbacks that can be swept by the LFO... that allows for amazing dynamic effects where color and duration of ambience is slightly changing in time (check my BIODELAYS and BIO-stuff on the DL8000R library.
There is no document about "how to". Presets show how that works and learning from them or experimenting is the key.

The attachment has a nice structure as an example...
Attached Thumbnails
Lexicon verbs... without using verb algorithms! (GREAT CLIPS ! ! !)-multitapsdly.jpg  
Old 22nd May 2013 | Show parent
  #26
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceman ➑️
Italo, do you think the multitap delays/chorus in the Lexicon PCM Native Effects bundle ( not the reverb bundle ) could be used the same way to recreate your reverbs ? Have you tried them ?
It's these : PCM Native Effects Plug-in Bundle | Lexicon Pro - Legendary Reverb and Effects

Don't like them much. Too sterile and closed architecture. True old Lexicon algorithms are environments with highly interactive sections you can come up with some magic stuff...like these spaces.
The whole problem with plugins, if you're fine with their sound, is the very different mind frame they are conceived...pretty much as specific and single effects, rather than sections with embedded interactions. Hardware has a terrific amount of creativity in this sense that plugs absolutely miss.
I haven't tried replicating this stuff on those plugs you mention... but they don't seem up to the task. You may try...
If the multi-voice chorused delays aren't true multitaps, sharing feedback paths... it's hopeless.
Old 22nd May 2013 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by italo de angelis ➑️
Unfortunately that is not enough and too crude for real ambience work.
You need at least 4 delays per side, so 8 in stereo, modulation on all delay lines, good filters in the feedback paths (better if you also have filters before the delays), normal or crossfeedback paths.
More cool options are filters AND feedbacks that can be swept by the LFO... that allows for amazing dynamic effects where color and duration of ambience is slightly changing in time (check my BIODELAYS and BIO-stuff on the DL8000R library.
There is no document about "how to". Presets show how that works and learning from them or experimenting is the key.

The attachment has a nice structure as an example...
Actually the SDD-3300 has most of that, albiet only three delay lines... see diagram (slight error, filters are actually BEFORE the delay line)



I've always leaned towards ambient processors and love to tweak effect processors. Will check your library... The SDD-3300 included a manual that illustrated the block diagrams of the factory presets, had hoped to find similar documentation for the DL8000R but no luck.

So the DL8000R would be a good study to learn from?
Old 22nd May 2013 | Show parent
  #28
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Definitely need:
-low cut/high cut filters in the feedback paths or ambience will sound BAD!
-filters at delays input stage are very nice to have, to limit unwanted tones.
-modulation on every delay line.
-a symmetric structure with 4 delays on L and 4 or right channels.
-TONE!
-microdelay/modulation values... 0,1 ms... help in nice colors.

The DL8000R is a fantastic machine! Its sound is really awesome and it also offers LFO and Envelope modulation of most parameters. You can learn a lot from it...and it's cheap...but not easy to find. Check my library for details.
www.italodeangelis.com

I'm actually writing the DL8000R algorithm (and some variations) on the Eventide DSP/Orville/H-series platforms. It sounds nice... but the Korg has its sound and stereo separation that is hard to beat.

Here's an almost final version of it in the attached image.
Attached Thumbnails
Lexicon verbs... without using verb algorithms! (GREAT CLIPS ! ! !)-dl8kontides.jpg  
Old 22nd May 2013
  #29
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Gary Ladd's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Nice stuff

I haven't used reverb FX for guitar since the 80s, and been using delays for that duty since I got my DM-2...which of course led me to compiling a whole stash of gear since
Old 23rd May 2013
  #30
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Now I'm curious if we could implement this in audulus
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