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The official Roland TB-303 Thread
Old 30th January 2013
  #31
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🎧 5 years
How do you guys feel your xoxbox compares to your real 303 (for those of you who have both) ?
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #32
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blinky909's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Addixion ➡️
How do you guys feel your xoxbox compares to your real 303 (for those of you who have both) ?
my two x0xboxes are on par with my 303. I spent some time adjusting them next to the 303. the x0xes go little past th 303 in both directions, but in the sweet spot, they are the business.

one of the x0xes is from TT and the other is hand built.

right now I'm groovin to a 303/606 orgy, and I'm in love
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #33
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Looneytune's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polygon Cube ➡️
I like the single 16 step pattern drive when the sequence itself sounds good...like, for example, the main 303 in the song "Jack Me" by D.A.V.E the drummer and Kn...that sequence is top notch, even though it repeats a lot!



Have thought about it, but havent done it yet, im still an acid/303 novice...but have experimented with changing the tuning in parts of a song to create a new sound from just one machine still playing.
I need to check out this track for sure.
I am a fan of the old repetive line.

Try to switch those waves, it has good results.
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #34
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneytune ➡️
I need to check out this track for sure.
I am a fan of the old repetive line.

Try to switch those waves, it has good results.
I will...in the meantime, i also recommend these other acid tracks if you havent heard them:

New Order- Confusion (Pump Panel Reconstruction Remix)

Hoschi- Tribe

Storm- Storm

Emmanuel Top- Rubycon

Nostradamus- Onyx

Nuclear Hyde- Observer

Last edited by Polygon Cube; 30th January 2013 at 03:21 AM.. Reason: Added more things...lol...im over here :D
Old 30th January 2013
  #35
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🎧 10 years
@looneytune...I took out my MIDI conversion because it developed some issues of getting stuck on some notes... Also my main reason was that I just wanted to use it as it was made. I love the 303's sequencer and even it's weird counterintuitive way of writing music with it.

Also I had just got a bunch of other Roland stuff from the same era that synced together.., almost working like a modular synth system...909/707/606/202/101. I just love how everything played together...some would say wonky and out of time...but I love it.

I have the X0XB0X to use with MIDI if if want a more controlled 303 line(or crazier!)
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #36
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Looneytune's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirdss ➡️
@looneytune...I took out my MIDI conversion because it developed some issues of getting stuck on some notes... Also my main reason was that I just wanted to use it as it was made. I love the 303's sequencer and even it's weird counterintuitive way of writing music with it.

Also I had just got a bunch of other Roland stuff from the same era that synced together.., almost working like a modular synth system...909/707/606/202/101. I just love how everything played together...some would say wonky and out of time...but I love it.

I have the X0XB0X to use with MIDI if if want a more controlled 303 line(or crazier!)
Yes for sure I am the same about the sequencer, I would only want midi so I can have it easily synced with my DAW. Not a big deal though as I still managed to do quite well with out midi so far. I would never stop sequencing on this thing, this is where all magic comes from
I actually sync my 909 with it all the time, it is good fun.

Well sounds like to me you are well sorted.

@Polygon, I look forward to hearing these tracks tonight.
Old 30th January 2013
  #37
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Today I'm grabbing my first TB-303. It's coming with that silver bag and original manual. Only thing that bothers me is that it has some scratches on the surface. Some would say that it give character, but I would like a near mint one... So has anyone ever done any restoration to their 303? Any tips or should I just contact Customsynth? heh

One question on syncin; I have a TR-909 and would like to sync it with TB-303, so is it safe to use normal MIDI-cord between them, or do I have to get some special DIN-SYNC-cord?

thx!
Old 30th January 2013
  #38
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
^ you are going to need some kind of adapter as the 909 & 303 are DIN sync IN only! although supposedly there is some kind of trick where you plug the cable half-in or something (i never got it to work)

here is my setup btw:

Old 30th January 2013
  #39
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blinky909's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
plug the cable 1/2 way into the 303 and it will spit out sync to the 909.

since MIDI requires only 3 wires, some MIDI cables do not have all 5 pins connected and these will not work with DIN. if you have a MIDI cable with all 5 pins connected, no problem. the Radio Shack multicolor bundle of 3' cables works great
Old 30th January 2013
  #40
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Thanks for the tip, I will try that tonight! I've also heard that TR-707 might be some help syncing 909 & 303?
Old 30th January 2013
  #41
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
yea 707 sends midi and din sync, however it's not a very stable master clock if you have other things you are trying to sync, i'd recommend getting a cheap doepfer midi/din converter and sync the 303 through the 909 midi out..
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #42
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mainesthai's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergman ➡️

One question on syncin; I have a TR-909 and would like to sync it with TB-303, so is it safe to use normal MIDI-cord between them, or do I have to get some special DIN-SYNC-cord?

thx!
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➡️
^ you are going to need some kind of adapter as the 909 & 303 are DIN sync IN only! although supposedly there is some kind of trick where you plug the cable half-in or something (i never got it to work)
Quote:
Originally Posted by blinky909 ➡️
plug the cable 1/2 way into the 303 and it will spit out sync to the 909.

since MIDI requires only 3 wires, some MIDI cables do not have all 5 pins connected and these will not work with DIN. if you have a MIDI cable with all 5 pins connected, no problem. the Radio Shack multicolor bundle of 3' cables works great
Plug the Dinsync cable into the 303 so far that the tempo led stops flashing, then pull back a bit until it flashes again. The 303 is now master over the 909. Don't forget to set the 909 to dinsync mode.
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #43
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network-909's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
TB-303 over here as well as one self built x0xb0x with black aluminum case and one ML-303 clone...
Soundwise they can completely replace the TB for sure. Sure there are minor differences due to component tolerances etc, but these exist from TB to TB either...
But what can be a BIG difference is just the feeling you have when tweaking the machine. On a TB the pots are small and quite hard to tweak. You hafta use two fingers and it gives a special feeling. Otherwise when tweaking the xoxbox I have bigger knobs which I can grab easily and the whole tweaking experience is quite different..
But for me these haptics are quite important for the full 303-experience... Maybe some other TB-owners can confirm this

About the 18/24dB issue. This is definetly a 4 pole filter, which means it would have 24dB/oct in ideal case. Since there is no matching done for the transistors in the VCF like in the Moog Filter case, the effective slope will be less that 24dB/oct and that's where the 18dB myth comes from.
Anyway the 303 uses a diode filter (transistors connected as diodes) and the Moog filter is a Moog filter. The main difference is, that in the Moog case each stage is decoupled from the others whereas in the 303 case each stage is loaded by the next stage which gives a quite different sound. Anyway concerning the slope thing, the missing component matching is the cause for the slight non-ideal slope which leads to less than 24dB/oct....

But forget that. In many cases you will find out, that the 12dB setting on a synth sounds better depending on the particular case...
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #44
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mainesthai's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
^+1

TB-303 filter overview
Old 30th January 2013
  #45
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Looneytune's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I have great news Devilfish got back to me.
Looks like my TB-303 is getting a full Devilfish modification.

Ha ha ha ha!!

Oops just noticed someone talking about synching a 909 with a 303.
I use a normal midi cable, I plug the cable less then half way into the 303 and it works a treat.
If you hear no sound from the 303 it means you have pushed the cable a little to far in.

Your 909 will sync to the 303.
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #46
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Looneytune's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➡️
^ you are going to need some kind of adapter as the 909 & 303 are DIN sync IN only! although supposedly there is some kind of trick where you plug the cable half-in or something (i never got it to work)

here is my setup btw:

Sexy setup Xanax.
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #47
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atsushi_hoshiai ➡️
TB-303 over here as well as one self built x0xb0x with black aluminum case and one ML-303 clone...
Soundwise they can completely replace the TB for sure.
Thats bull.. please dont spread false info and look for the sources thatz you dont hear the difference.. either your monitors or your 303 programming is too bad. Or.. happens often.. you have no analytic listening sense.. there are many people that are somehow color blind when it comes to sound nuances..

They can be still good musicans but they nerver get known mix or mastering engeneers or developers of speakersystems.
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #48
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blinky909's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioconsult ➡️
Thats bull.. please dont spread false info and look for the sources thatz you dont hear the difference.. either your monitors or your 303 programming is too bad. Or.. happens often.. you have no analytic listening sense.. there are many people that are somehow color blind when it comes to sound nuances..

They can be still good musicans but they nerver get known mix or mastering engeneers or developers of speakersystems.
303 or x0xbox?

Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #49
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Blackbelt Jones's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Great stuff Blinky. I can't tell, but then again I was too busy enjoying the track to care.
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #50
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by blinky909 ➡️
303 or x0xbox?

edgy as a xox

but maybe you can try to hide it even better by playing the recording in reverse ad mixing it with some carcrash recordings?

with such lines and mix it really dont matters whether its a 303 or not..
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #51
Gear Maniac
 
network-909's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioconsult ➡️
Thats bull.. please dont spread false info and look for the sources thatz you dont hear the difference.. either your monitors or your 303 programming is too bad. Or.. happens often.. you have no analytic listening sense.. there are many people that are somehow color blind when it comes to sound nuances..

They can be still good musicans but they nerver get known mix or mastering engeneers or developers of speakersystems.
That's ok... I just see it from engineer point of view. I'm more EE than musician. I understand the 303 circuitry and I understand where differences CAN come from from technical point of view when comparing the original with newer clones. I'm just speaking of my personal clones which I built as close as possible to the original (BA662 etc..). And for me these two clones simply sound like a 303, not better, not worse, just a bit different, but still like a 303. I only have one original 303 to compare with. Maybe you got your knowledge from comparing hundreds of TBs with these clones. If you're just comparing your maybe 5 TBs with the clone world your statistics is based on n<10... not a good starting point to do statistics from mathematical point of view. Anyway take it easy man
Old 30th January 2013 | Show parent
  #52
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🎧 5 years
??? 2 ears are enough.. and knowing the machine.. of cause it dont shows equaly on any sequence.. you have to make the 303 twitter and scream and do dynamical parameter changes.. than the dfferences get obvious..

Why do you think the tnew basbott clone takes all the effort to replace the original power supply? do you really think that is fo the sake of battery use?
MAybe you should be carefull about sound statements when you are just on the electronic side of things?

Is the circuit the same? yes or no?
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #53
Gear Maniac
 
network-909's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioconsult ➡️
??? 2 ears are enough.. and knowing the machine.. of cause it dont shows equaly on any sequence.. you have to make the 303 twitter and scream and do dynamical parameter changes.. than the dfferences get obvious..

Why do you think the tnew basbott clone takes all the effort to replace the original power supply? do you really think that is fo the sake of battery use?
MAybe you should be carefull about sound statements when you are just on the electronic side of things?

Is the circuit the same? yes or no?
lol again keep cool man... Always makes me smile when it comes up to this crappy TB/clone discussions. Is there anything you hafta defend? If you ask me, there would never be any clone and the only 303s in the world would be Roland TB-303s..
But you hafta base your opinion on something. Ok we learned that it's your ears, not technical considerations. If your ears tell you, that only a TB is a TB, then that's ok. My technical background tells me, that a machine which uses the same circuitry will probably sound the same.

Anyway so what's the reason for the sound difference in your opinion? Is it the age of the TBs?? So in 1982 a TB sounded crappy like a x0xb0x sounds today? Or if I wait for 30 years my x0xbox will sound like a today's 303? Or is it due to some secret and great sounding components Roland decided to use to ensure that Acid House will emerge approx 5 years later? So what is it?
None of the TB-303 defenders could ever answer that question to me so far, nor you and your ears will...

Surely the power supply has an influence but not because it's some great sounding DCDC-converter circuit but due to the fact that the 5.333V is also used in the filter circuit as well which has a huge influence on the resonance behavior when the 5.333V reference gets detuned over the time...
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #54
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atsushi_hoshiai ➡️
My technical background tells me, that a machine which uses the same circuitry will probably sound the same.

Anyway so what's the reason for the sound difference in your opinion?
but the circuit is not the same.. far from it.. total different powersupply cheme.. different circuit board layout and different cpu with different hf emission, plus differences in the parts as th production process of transistors and ic´s s different today than in the early 80´s. th caps sound different.. and metal film resistors give a different sound..

but the parts have the smallest impact..powersupply and crosstalk thru crcuot board layout the biggest..


and this is based on research
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #55
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atsushi_hoshiai ➡️
Surely the power supply has an influence but not because it's some great sounding DCDC-converter circuit but due to the fact that the 5.333V is also used in the filter circuit as well which has a huge influence on the resonance behavior when the 5.333V reference gets detuned over the time...
it compresses the signal dynamical on high resonance settings.. and you get more smears on the accented resonant tones.. maybe thru hf bleed thru or crosstalk in low current situations.. hard to measure.. but when you have measuring grade ears..anyway the best audio measuring device..has no display or printerport..but so sensitive .. you should try to get some
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #56
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kpsiegel's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneytune ➡️
I have great news Devilfish got back to me.
Looks like my TB-303 is getting a full Devilfish modification.
Great decision to let Robin work on your 303. He is a total wizard with that stuff. I have had a Devilfish for many years and just recently had Robin put the Quicksilver CPU mod into it. This required a lot of initial work for Robin as we discussed the potential noise issues associated with the USB connection. Robin has custom designed a USB isolation board which is part of the work he does when doing the Quicksilver work along with the Devilfish mods.

My Devilfish is the second one Robin did with the Quicksilver mods and the first one to incorporate the integrated USB isolation board. It is dead quiet and an amazing piece of gear. Beyond the obvious benefits of the mods that Robin does are the total upgrade of critical components that he does for you. Basically, what you will get back from him is a piece of gear that is not going to give you any issues at all.

Be aware that the trick you like to do with removing the battery to generate new patterns is not going to be available to you with the Quicksilver mods because it uses flash memory.

My Devilfish. The patched holes in the upper left were where the additional memory mods in the original Devilfish lived. They had to be removed because there is no way to accomodate them with all the other stuff. Robin did a real nice job patching the holes up.

Old 31st January 2013
  #57
Gear Maniac
 
network-909's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'm pretty sure you cannot describe how the power supply of the TB works and why the x0x-supply causes the differences..

Lets just close this topic, since it bores the others here...
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #58
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atsushi_hoshiai ➡️
I'm pretty sure you cannot describe how the power supply of the TB works and why the x0x-supply causes the differences..

Lets just close this topic, since it bores the others here...
do you want to do the technocrats " what cant be cant be claim"?

Or do you just want to avoid to admit that the circuit is different enough to explain any sound difference?

Anyway.. use your ears and your mind has to follow..
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
And to give an example what kind of 303 lines you need to show the sound differences to a xox box.. It needs to get snappy and animated.. As stiffer and undynamic the line as smaller the difference between xox and 303.

When you look up the typical "xox sounds the same" youtube "prove" you will see that the guys always use unanimated lines...
Try some similar lines than this one on your xox and real 303.. maybe you get the difference than.

Hope the file uploads: nope..it does´nt..

anyway.. Do 303 lines taht are dynamic and miox long sustained notes with slides that go octaves down wit short high accented notes.. Ant let it twitter and snap with the env mod and resonance settings.. And you will have a fluent elasticly swinging and singing quality with the real 303 the xox cant provide.


the bassbott seems to get way closer to the real 303 with different circuits and parts but by having a similar switched power supply as in the original..than the xox.

That somehow is a strong hint for the powersupply point.

Problem with measurement fraction is that they only can measure phenomenons they can explain.. What leaves them pretty blind for phenomenons they cant explain.. Especially a problem for the technicans that are not able to hear the phenomenon and therfore dont even look for an explanation. Therfore the many "everything sounds the same" audio myth from people that maybe have an engineering diploma but obviously have a hearing problem. Dont helps when theese guys than see a technical diploma as a licence for the truth.. a move that appears at times not very smart btw.

I guess that the people that claim a xox sounding like a 303 have never heard it over a big pa on max volume..

Otherwise they would know that their assumed not worth to mention difference is in reality the difference between cool and painfull.

xox or 303? the 303 sequencer wins big time..And the sound of the real 303 is smoosher and more elastic than on all clones..
And thats nothing but the truth.
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #60
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Looneytune's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpsiegel ➡️
Great decision to let Robin work on your 303. He is a total wizard with that stuff. I have had a Devilfish for many years and just recently had Robin put the Quicksilver CPU mod into it. This required a lot of initial work for Robin as we discussed the potential noise issues associated with the USB connection. Robin has custom designed a USB isolation board which is part of the work he does when doing the Quicksilver work along with the Devilfish mods.

My Devilfish is the second one Robin did with the Quicksilver mods and the first one to incorporate the integrated USB isolation board. It is dead quiet and an amazing piece of gear. Beyond the obvious benefits of the mods that Robin does are the total upgrade of critical components that he does for you. Basically, what you will get back from him is a piece of gear that is not going to give you any issues at all.

Be aware that the trick you like to do with removing the battery to generate new patterns is not going to be available to you with the Quicksilver mods because it uses flash memory.

My Devilfish. The patched holes in the upper left were where the additional memory mods in the original Devilfish lived. They had to be removed because there is no way to accomodate them with all the other stuff. Robin did a real nice job patching the holes up.

Very nice.
Yes had a good chat to Robin on the phone last night.
What a guy and a wizard indeed.

It is locked in and cant wait.

Yes I am aware that I will loose the battery trick. I hope nothing else is lost as there is nothing at all wrong with my machine, I just want it to have the Devilfish features and of course midi in and out so I can slave to Protools and Logic.

Last edited by Looneytune; 31st January 2013 at 01:29 AM.. Reason: not sure
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