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How likely is it for Roland to do a "Korg ms20" with Juno 106?
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #31
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by volumetrik ➑️
Are you saying theres absolutely no money in a reissue 303 or 808/909? Thats probably more profitable compared to some of the products they have in their line up right now.
There's money in a 303, 808 or 909 reissue... but probably not enough. Remember, Roland is a publicly traded company, and their shareholders require projects that are capable of generating a certain amount of growth -- growth that probably exceeds the niche market of those who would buy these products.

On top of that, Roland's current line-up, such as their pianos, electronic drum kits, organs -- and yes even their virtual analogues -- are probably sold to far more churches, high schools and theatre groups than a 303, 808 or 909 reissue could ever hope to sell.
Old 28th January 2013
  #32
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LiveFromKyoto's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
We'd all just complain that it wasn't the Juno 60 anyway.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #33
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volumetrik's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Equinox ➑️
There's money in a 303, 808 or 909 reissue... but probably not enough. Remember, Roland is a publicly traded company, and their shareholders require projects that are capable of generating a certain amount of growth -- growth that probably exceeds the niche market of those who would buy these products.

On top of that, Roland's current line-up, such as their pianos, electronic drum kits, organs -- and yes even their virtual analogues -- are probably sold to far more churches, high schools and theatre groups than a 303, 808 or 909 reissue could ever hope to sell.
We don't have statistics to back this up. How many Gaias were sold or how many of their accordions or whatever if everything was selling in millions they would be one of the biggest brands around yet they are not ranked in any of that.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #34
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Rooftree's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
It doesn't seem like there's an obvious money maker for them in the reissue field. One approach would be to create a new analog instrument that capitalizes on their name and rabid fan base, but without being exactly like any of their old gear. It could have sonic qualities that are similar. By avoiding a direct reissue, they could avoid the inevitable whining when the reisue doesn't sound, look, smell, or taste exactly like the old gear.

But what to make? Arturia, Moog and Korg have a big head start with their analog monos. And there are several analog drum machines and xox clones. This leaves only one area without much competition ---- analog poly.

But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them to release one.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #35
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by volumetrik ➑️
We don't have statistics to back this up. How many Gaias were sold or how many of their accordions or whatever if everything was selling in millions they would be one of the biggest brands around yet they are not ranked in any of that.
We can however confidently assume the Roland Gaia, among many other modern Roland products, are selling in higher numbers than the 303, 808 and 909 ever did, because they all sold in record *low* numbers. It's also most likely that a reissue of the 303, 808 or 909 wouldn't sell in higher numbers because they are still one-trick-ponies with relatively limited appeal, and many clones have already satisfied much of the sales base.
Old 28th January 2013
  #36
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
More I think about it ... an SH101 would made sense.

It's been steadily gaining popularity in the used market.. where as the 808 and 909's kinda go up and down.
Old 28th January 2013
  #37
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🎧 10 years
Old 28th January 2013
  #38
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➑️
I highly doubt it.
The most attractive thing they could do is replicate 100, 100M and 700 series modules in Eurorack format.
I don't they're going to do that either.
Oh man I wish. I was just thinking this the other day. A 100m would be the most logical & coolest analog device to produce. It would certainly be the most cost effective. However I don't think 'logic' or 'cool' fits their corporate business model at the moment :(
Old 28th January 2013
  #39
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🎧 15 years
I want them to reissue the MT32



No, I think if they did something they should do the 100m. Nice systems.
Old 28th January 2013
  #40
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🎧 10 years
Step 1) Recognize the fact that there is a market for re-issues.

Step 2) Hahaha, there is no step 2, Roland doesn't take step 1 in the first place.



Okay, now seriously:

Step 1) Set up a production line for new IR chips and (if you want a Jupiter 6 or SH101) new CEM chips. This is pretty expensive; an alternative would be to not use chips but simply use SMT for that so that you'd get circuitry sort of looking like the RAM sticks in your computer, only with fewer connectors. This is how the replacement Juno-106 voice chips are made.

Step 2) Set up a production line for BBD chips for the famous analog Roland chorus (one of their best inventions: it's like MSG for sound)

Step 3) Find a way to keep the case cheap. That means potmeters rather than sliders, preferably all the same type so you can really buy in bulk properly, and perhaps 49 keys instead of 61 (less material required) - or even just 37. In that regard an SH101 is more feasible than a Juno-106.

Step 4) Attempt to sell, only to find that the originals still fetch ridiculous prices and people will find a way to discredit the new versions because the old ones sound better.

As for the 303, what can Roland possibly contribute that a thriving community of x0xb0xes has not done already? Sure - those don't sound the same.

But why would Roland suddenly get it right in this regard when they've been willing to look the other way before? Because they still have a warehouse full of NOS parts?

Don't think so.
Old 28th January 2013
  #41
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🎧 10 years
Roland is one of the few companies that still doesn't "get it". As far as they are concerned, they've already got this segment covered with the Jupiter-80 and SH-01. They can't understand why anyone would want an analog synth, it's old, outdated technology.

This is nothing new for Roland, who have always wanted to make "serious" instruments, not toys. TB-303 was an accident. It was meant to be used as bass accompaniment by serious musicians. The Jupier-8 was meant to emulate real, acoustic instruments. It didn't do a very good job, but in Rolands' view, they have now perfected this with the Jupiter-80.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #42
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volumetrik's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer ➑️
Step 1) Set up a production line for new IR chips and (if you want a Jupiter 6 or SH101) new CEM chips. This is pretty expensive;
why? have you contacted plants and got the prices?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer ➑️
3) Find a way to keep the case cheap. That means potmeters rather than sliders, preferably all the same type so you can really buy in bulk properly, and perhaps 49 keys instead of 61 (less material required) - or even just 37. In that regard an SH101 is more feasible than a Juno-106.
material for such things costs **** all these days...say you wanted a metal top cover thats like equivalent to 2 computer cases

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer ➑️
for the 303, what can Roland possibly contribute that a thriving community of x0xb0xes has not done already? Sure - those don't sound the same.
not everyone wants a x0xb0x or some other clone

btw all this talk about Roland just makes them look like they are this greedy company that only cares about money and nothing else, I seriously doubt that
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #43
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by volumetrik ➑️
why? have you contacted plants and got the prices?
Have you?

If CEM chips were that cheap, DSI wouldn't have to use a pallet full of NOS Curtis chips for their Prophet '08. Besides, various EEs have chimed in in previous discussions - there must've been dozens that all want Roland to come back - to state that this is a non-trivial matter.

Quote:
not everyone wants a x0xb0x or some other clone
No, they want the same plastic silver box adorned with the Roland logo with the same guts, costing the same as it did back in 1983 because they missed their chance to stock up on 'm and raid pawnshops back in the late 80s when they were sold for nearly nothing.

Quote:
btw all this talk about Roland just makes them look like they are this greedy company that only cares about money and nothing else, I seriously doubt that
They're not greedy, just not interested in doing analog revivals to please a handful of the same people on messageboards. Besides, once you have shareholders/investors your objective is to make money. That's not greed, that's survival.

Greedy is demanding a Jupiter 8 for $1000, which is a recurring theme in threads like these. "Oh, Roland is so big, surely they can leverage the scale to make it cheap". "Oh, Roland invented the originals, the only thing they have to do is to dust off the circuit diagrams". Everyone seems to think that all that's keeping them from doing this is some beancounter at the upper levels who wants more romplers or something.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #44
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TheBrightSide's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmiG ➑️
Roland is one of the few companies that still doesn't "get it". As far as they are concerned, they've already got this segment covered with the Jupiter-80 and SH-01. They can't understand why anyone would want an analog synth, it's old, outdated technology.

This is nothing new for Roland, who have always wanted to make "serious" instruments, not toys. TB-303 was an accident. It was meant to be used as bass accompaniment by serious musicians. The Jupier-8 was meant to emulate real, acoustic instruments. It didn't do a very good job, but in Rolands' view, they have now perfected this with the Jupiter-80.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Despite making some great stuff, they have always been pretty lame.
The 303 is the perfect example of this.
And naming all their new products after their old gear that actually appeared on records is just embarrassing. Though it has lead to my enjoyable hobby of pooping all over the "Roland Corporation"
They were even dud's in the seventies. Pasting the word "Digital" all over their analog chorus unit's. Great idea fella's!
Old 28th January 2013
  #45
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volumetrik's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
ok can someone tell me if there was a Roland product in the last 10 years that just didn't do well at all and they actually lost money on it?
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #46
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🎧 5 years
Regarding an official 303 remake. The 303 cloners haven't been using vintage parts for no reason. Accurately cloning the 303 sound using all modern components would be an interesting exercise, if not a fun one.

As far as I can remember the SH101 uses the same filter chip as the Jupiter 8, so unless there's a way to emulate that using modern ICs, I doubt that's a trivial option.

I think the MS20-Mini filter is possibly using a surface mount equivalent to an LM13700 op-amp chip. Those kind of ICs are easily available.
Old 28th January 2013
  #47
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🎧 5 years
I don't think the 106 sounds very good, it's basic tone a little lacking, it's same with the matrix 6, but the 6 has crazy mod options and stuff to make up for it, I would rather them remake the juno 6 or 60, an instrument with killer tone.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #48
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Barfunkel's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanderbeanz ➑️
I don't think the 106 sounds very good, it's basic tone a little lacking, it's same with the matrix 6, but the 6 has crazy mod options and stuff to make up for it, I would rather them remake the juno 6 or 60, an instrument with killer tone.
I don't think they can make a Juno 6/60 for less money than they are now. Polys are expensive to make.

If something, they could make a 909 or an 808 for less money they are going for now.
Old 28th January 2013
  #49
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Whilst your at it Roland, Any chance of an 808 or 909 in the $600 region would be great mmmkay
Old 28th January 2013
  #50
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
For the 808 there's already the Acidlab Miami, but it would be neat if someone took up the challenge of doing a 909 - preferably with the original lit computer-keyboard-style switches instead of ordinary pushbuttons.
Old 28th January 2013
  #51
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🎧 5 years
i award the op with 5 gummibears for the weardest thread titel of the month

Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #52
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🎧 5 years
beside that it has turned out that the famous roland filter is jkuist a standard ota that is still in production.. so the one filter that can be build with actual parts.. opposite to most other chip based synths
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #53
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volumetrik's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer ➑️
For the 808 there's already the Acidlab Miami, but it would be neat if someone took up the challenge of doing a 909 - preferably with the original lit computer-keyboard-style switches instead of ordinary pushbuttons.
In these kind of threads you sound like you want Roland to rather not make a 303 or 808/909.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #54
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flat's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I generally have no interest in Roland gear other than early SH series (I generally find their stuff perhaps a little cliched and over used), but even I would buy a new version of the TR-808 if it was re-issued and sounded even 80% as good.

So my bet (if they did try to 'give it a go') would be TB303, TR808 or SH-101.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #55
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by volumetrik ➑️
In these kind of threads you sound like you want Roland to rather not make a 303 or 808/909.
I'd be delighted if they did, however:

The people who did the x0xb0x project, the Miami, and the 909 clones - they're all far more invested in this kind of stuff. They don't have the Roland brand to back them up, so their version can't be half-assed; it has to be as good as possible because otherwise nobody's going to buy this, especially if it has to be put in a different box. Look at a bog-standard x0xb0x; nobody's going to mistake that for an original 303, ever.

It is relatively simple to make a replica that looks like the original on the outside (as shown by the Bass Bot TT-303) It's hard to recreate the magic within.

As Roland has shown, they have no qualms re-using the names of their legacy products and put something different inside. That's their prerogative - they own the names and trademarks and copyrights and whatnot.

The easiest and cheapest way to do it would be to build a copy of the case (not that difficult) and put a little DSP in there that would generate the voices and a simple sequencer. If they did that, would the "Roland TR909 New Edition" printed on the case have any meaning? Would the fact that it came from Roland, original inventors of the 909 have any meaning?

I'd rather have people do it who are still invested in it and who'll go the extra lengths to make it as authentic as possible, instead of coasting by on a brand name. So what if the case doesn't say "Roland" - chances are that they did a better job, because they were passionate about it instead of looking for a quick cash infusion.
Old 28th January 2013
  #56
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
roland lost the plot ages ago.. some would argue they never had it to begin with.. the iconic 303/808/909 & Jupiter 8 were not built with electronic musicians in mind but were supposed to emulate real life instruments with the available technology. it was a miserable failure at that although it later defined entire music genres. roland finally caught on to their edm market during the late 90s/00s with their groovebox series but again failed to meet the expectations by using stale rom sounds full of cliches. they are now doing the same thing with their faux-retro keyboards (sh-201,juno-G,jupiter80)

if you go the roland website you'll find they seem to be regressing into hobbyist and pro-sumer categories:


korg & roland have very different philosophies. korg takes risks, roland always play it safe. besides korg have done their best to recreate their previous models in the legacy collection and paved the way for the mini MS with the tribes/trons. i definitely hope roland will wake up from coma but i'm not holding my breath..
Old 28th January 2013
  #57
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by flat earth ➑️
I would buy a new version of the TR-808 if it was re-issued and sounded even 80% as good.
Seen the Acidlab Miami?
Old 28th January 2013
  #58
MusicFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonM ➑️

......will Roland ever re make the Juno 106/60?

...And to Roland, if you are reading this, if you do decide to follow suite, you better make it sound the same/just as good, or else don't bother.



Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #59
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flat's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by orpheus_ ➑️
Seen the Acidlab Miami?
Yes, seen and heard it. Nice machine but it doesn't sound like an 808 to me. Just something vaguely similar. I also think its way too expensive.

If Roland could do an 808, sounding 95% like the original for Β£350, I'd wager they may even surpass the miniMS20 in sales.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #60
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volumetrik's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
looks crappy too
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