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New Korg MS-20 Mini
Old 12th June 2013
  #2641
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
I just got mine tonight. Its a little noisy, but I cut back on the high end a bit on the mixer channel I have it running through and I am a happy camper.
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2642
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volumetrik's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by huggie ➡️
I have the original 1979 vintage MS20 with the Korg35 filter.

I had a huge amount of noise on mine and sent it to my synth technician to check out. He was able to minimise it but not get rid of it completely.

My guess is that the noise from the MS20 is inherent in the circuit design. All these reports of the new Mini MS20 having the same issue kind of proves it...

I have learn't to work around the noise. The MS20 isn't the synth to use to make pure sub basses or sine style leads...


- Hugo
+1

And because the new MS-20 mini is using a higher output IC as said in the interview with engineer video, it likely brings out the noise more because of it.
Old 12th June 2013
  #2643
tomcc
Guest
Well that settles it for me as I already have a noise generator that i CAN control.
So looks like I'll cancel my order and get a sub phatty instead
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2644
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skira's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcc ➡️
Well that settles it for me as I already have a noise generator that i CAN control.
So looks like I'll cancel my order and get a sub phatty instead
first check out the SoS review of the Sub. I haven't read it but someone said here it was a meh review.
Old 12th June 2013
  #2645
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Hello! This is my first post on this site, it's awesome and has been useful so hopefully I can contribute here and there. However, like many people here, I just got my ms20-mini and instead of jamming happily on it, I'm searching through internet forums for answers to it's apparent issues. I noticed the noise right off the bat. I'm also having a real hard time getting the two VCO's in tune. VCO2 is in tune across the whole keyboard but VCO1 is off by at least a half step from A2 on up and a whole step or more below that. The scale/intonation is off for VCO1 for some reason. This is how it's been, brand new, no patches ran. Anyone else having this issue? I may start a thread about it if there isn't a similar one already.
Old 12th June 2013
  #2646
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anigbrowl's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I would certainly ask for a replacement based on the tuning issue, including cost of shipping. The whole point of having DCOs is so that you don't have to deal with such issues.

EDIT: They're not DCOs, total brain fart there. I was thinking about the bass Station 2.
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2647
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by anigbrowl ➡️
I would certainly ask for a replacement based on the tuning issue, including cost of shipping. The whole point of having DCOs is so that you don't have to deal with such issues.
Yeahh, unfortunately the Mini MS20 has VCOs only
Old 12th June 2013
  #2648
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tyler477's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Seems to me the only people happy with the ms-20 mini are noobs, anyone who has actually owned analogs are sending theirs back. I foresee many lightly used ms20 minis on the market for >200 bones in the near future. If I was you guys I would go for the MS20 controller, something you could use.
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2649
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
 
18 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler477 ➡️
Seems to me the only people happy with the ms-20 mini are noobs, anyone who has actually owned analogs are sending theirs back. I foresee many lightly used ms20 minis on the market for >200 bones in the near future. If I was you guys I would go for the MS20 controller, something you could use.
then why do they sound fine/great in the demonstration and debut videos with no real issues to be seen?
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2650
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tyler477's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx ➡️
then why do they sound fine/great in the demonstration and debut videos with no real issues to be seen?
Probably because they avoided recording the demos with the noise being prevalent.

In my mind a reissue should be on par or better than the original, not clearly worse.
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2651
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
 
18 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler477 ➡️
Probably because they avoided recording the demos with the noise being prevalent.

In my mind a reissue should be on par or better than the original, not clearly worse.
you're telling me they magically went to settings that aren't noisy? or are you indicating conspiracy? what I am led to believe is that these are quite possibly playable instruments. I guess I'll have to see for myself, and, won't we all if we really must know.
Old 12th June 2013
  #2652
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
I just sent Korg an email about my VCO1 not being tune-able and the line noise, I'll also call tomorrow, I'll share what they tell me.
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2653
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
^ VCO1 doesn't have independent pitch control (like VCO2) but you should be able to tune it via the master tune control knob

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler477 ➡️
Seems to me the only people happy with the ms-20 mini are noobs, anyone who has actually owned analogs are sending theirs back. I foresee many lightly used ms20 minis on the market for >200 bones in the near future. If I was you guys I would go for the MS20 controller, something you could use.
Old 12th June 2013
  #2654
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Synthbuilder's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I was thinking about buying one of these. But now I definitely want one. I'm really very interested in this noise business. That's me as an engineer speaking rather than a musician. Now, I don't think I've ever repaired an MS-20 rev 1 before but I've done a fair few MS-10s, PS3300s and know intimately my own Micropreset. All of those feature the Korg35 hybrid filter and single transistor VCA.

I'm pretty sure it's not the VCA. The Korg Polysix has such a VCA too and it shows no sign of excessive noise from that part of the circuit. However, the Korg35 is a noisy filter, and so is the diode ring filter that came before it (the one in the 700, 700S, 700 and 800DV). But neither are as noisy as some of the examples I'm hearing here.

They are, however, very susceptible to stray pick up of other signals. It could be that the noise generator is bleeding into the VCFs. Sean talks about the quality of noise being affected by things that have no direct connection to the VCF. This muddies the waters still further, but makes me all the more interested to get to the bottom of it.

I think I'll wait until a few second hand ones pop up on Ebay and I'll take a sneak around.

Tony
Old 12th June 2013
  #2655
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Sonic ➡️
This thread is hilarious. Lots of digital boyz moaning about analog noise and wanting their analog synth to sound exactly the same as everyone elses?!?! You should all take your MS20s back buy a new rompler (and go back to playing your presets), then you will get no unexpected noise and your synth will sound the same as everyone elses.
Amen
Old 12th June 2013
  #2656
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler477 ➡️
Seems to me the only people happy with the ms-20 mini are noobs, anyone who has actually owned analogs are sending theirs back. I foresee many lightly used ms20 minis on the market for >200 bones in the near future. If I was you guys I would go for the MS20 controller, something you could use.
Lol the only people complaining are noobs used to digital synths. Those who actually own the original mk1 like Hugo and others say the noise is inherent to the design.
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2657
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthbuilder ➡️
It could be that the noise generator is bleeding into the VCFs.
If I'm not mistaken didn't someone mention bleed-thru on their original korg 35 model a few posts back on this thread - or was it the ms20 uestions and answers one ?
Old 12th June 2013
  #2658
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xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
^ it's been mentioned throughout the thread including this very page.. what people are trying to do now is pinpoint precisely where the bleed occurs.. imo it's post-VCF & pre-EG2
Old 12th June 2013
  #2659
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lu77's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by willsanquil ➡️
god damn I am sick of seeing all these toxic noise posts instead of worthwhile discussion.

want some actual content?

MS 20 Patch: Squelchy Vocal : ms20

MS 20 Patch: Ring Mod S+H triggered by MG : ms20

youtube videos I made today of patch design and explanation behind the patches, plus imgur pics of the iMS-20 with all the exact knob positions I use to start the patch.

Would love some more contributors to the subreddit. Oh, and if you post anything about the freakin noise I will permaban you
awesome patch!!! also I love the idea of using the iPad app to snap and record real live patches! hah might actually buy it!


hmmmm has anyone tried connecting ms 20 mini yo the iOS app?! I'd be interested to hear whether you get two osc's can they control each other? can they duet?

oh so much fun to be had, but still atleast two weeks away for me!
Old 12th June 2013
  #2660
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hogo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I love the noise. I have other analogs for clean.
Old 12th June 2013
  #2661
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lu77's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotEscorts ➡️
Hello! This is my first post on this site, it's awesome and has been useful so hopefully I can contribute here and there. However, like many people here, I just got my ms20-mini and instead of jamming happily on it, I'm searching through internet forums for answers to it's apparent issues. I noticed the noise right off the bat. I'm also having a real hard time getting the two VCO's in tune. VCO2 is in tune across the whole keyboard but VCO1 is off by at least a half step from A2 on up and a whole step or more below that. The scale/intonation is off for VCO1 for some reason. This is how it's been, brand new, no patches ran. Anyone else having this issue? I may start a thread about it if there isn't a similar one already.
analog synths are pretty renowned for not remaining in tune throughout. but I thought mark at automaticgainsay mentioned the ms-20 was pretty good. my polysix cannot stay in tune beyond a couple of octaves. though as it warms up it gets more stable. my phatty changes tuning from preset to preset which drives me bonkers some days, but again leaving it running usually irons that out. the ms-20 atleast doesn't have warm up issues. according to mark.

there is a tuning knob next to portamento right?

interesting that you find osc 2 more stable.

things like heat, humidity, warm up time, rf signals nearby, they all affect analog synths. it's part of their charm, like grumpy pets which have to be coaxed out to play or just taken for a good old ROMP in the back yard.
Old 12th June 2013
  #2662
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remote337's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by miscend ➡️
Lol the only people complaining are noobs used to digital synths. Those who actually own the original mk1 like Hugo and others say the noise is inherent to the design.
I have had analogues for 25 years, so no noob and also own a MK1 and as I have repeatedly stated the noise although present is not as prevalent as the mini I played and on one of the previous videos.

I have been asked to post pictures (not sure why) and sound clips, which I am happy to do but as these have previously been dismissed on the basis of 'we can't see the Osc levels or the signal path or any other excuse, I can't see the point.

Another ridiculous comment is that my Mk1 must have been modified or recapped and I can confirm it has been recapped but I can't imagine that the mini was modeled on a 30 year old MK1 that had leaking or bad caps in it. Therefore it is safe to assume that a recapped MK1 is as close to the original sound upon release that you can get and it's quieter than the mini.

Synth builder above talks about looking into this and as I met him recently (bought his JP6) I would happily let him use my MK1 if he wasn't an 8 hour round trip away!

For those that doubt my integrity on this, I'm sure he or James Walker at Synth Repair services will vouch for me.
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2663
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volumetrik's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by remote337 ➡️
For those that doubt my integrity on this, I'm sure he or James Walker at Synth Repair services will vouch for me.
Is that the guy from Melbourne?
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2664
Lives for gear
 
xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by lu77 ➡️
analog synths are pretty renowned for not remaining in tune throughout. but I thought mark at automaticgainsay mentioned the ms-20 was pretty good. my polysix cannot stay in tune beyond a couple of octaves. though as it warms up it gets more stable. my phatty changes tuning from preset to preset which drives me bonkers some days, but again leaving it running usually irons that out. the ms-20 atleast doesn't have warm up issues. according to mark.

there is a tuning knob next to portamento right?

interesting that you find osc 2 more stable.

things like heat, humidity, warm up time, rf signals nearby, they all affect analog synths. it's part of their charm, like grumpy pets which have to be coaxed out to play or just taken for a good old ROMP in the back yard.
fwiw my mini is super stable an can be tuned to anything.. no warm up time as far as i can tell unlike my voyager..

Quote:
Originally Posted by remote337 ➡️

I have been asked to post pictures (not sure why) and sound clips, which I am happy to do but as these have previously been dismissed on the basis of 'we can't see the Osc levels or the signal path or any other excuse, I can't see the point.
cheap shot at me but i'll explain, it's rather useless to post clips to compare the variance of noise if you aren't going to provide the levels or at least patch you are playing since the noise bleed varies immensely depending on settings/osc volume.. but at this point i'm not really interested in more comparisons, there has been enough material posted on the subject, let's try and focus on finding solutions not dividing opinions..

Quote:
Originally Posted by remote337 ➡️
Another ridiculous comment is that my Mk1 must have been modified or recapped and I can confirm it has been recapped but I can't imagine that the mini was modeled on a 30 year old MK1 that had leaking or bad caps in it. Therefore it is safe to assume that a recapped MK1 is as close to the original sound upon release that you can get and it's quieter than the mini.
second cheap shot again i must explain to you...yet again.. yes the mini is modeled on a 35 year old mk1 design, that i believe was noisy from the start since it's probably got to do with the korg35 design.. which korg themselves changed with their rev2 in order to reduce the unwanted hiss.. along the road some people may have recapped it to attenuate the hiss, others have simply learned to work around the issue.. which is basically what i am advising people, either learn to work around it or simply return it or wait for a fix... you are really beating a dead horse by now constantly bringing up the same argument for debate... let's please try and move on to either finding a solution or talk about other ms related stuff.. it's starting to feel like groundhog's day around here
Old 12th June 2013
  #2665
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
How about some thoughts on a specific and straightforward EQ solution, -- as in frequency, slope, and dB cut amount -- that preserves the unique MS sound?
Old 12th June 2013
  #2666
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remote337's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by volumetrik ➡️
Is that the guy from Melbourne?
No he's in the UK, Stoke On Trent, probably the best synth tech we have. He looks after kit for most major bands.
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2667
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volumetrik's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by remote337 ➡️
No he's in the UK, Stoke On Trent, probably the best synth tech we have. He looks after kit for most major bands.
Oh right, actually there's a guy in Melbourne also a synth tech his name is Luke Walker - Synth Service Melbourne

Hehe coincidence
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2668
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volumetrik's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
What worries me a bit is Korg didn't address the issue enough.

So if the first original MS-20 had a significant noise issue and they made a revision soon after, it was a problem back then.

Curious how long the first MS-20 was in production.

Also if in the Minis manual it mentions that the VCA has been tweaked to reduce noise then Korg hasn't done enough to fix it.
Old 12th June 2013 | Show parent
  #2669
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R3Member's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I found this online and it has an interesting guess about why Korg originally stopped using the Korg35 filter:

One further question lingers though: what was it that made Korg ditch the Korg35 in favour of the OTA version? My two main guesses would be: the CV bleed-through on the Korg35 is probably pretty bad (simulation will probably show this, but I haven’t tried it yet!); and for optimum performance the transistors in the chip would probably need to be matched, which must have added significantly to their manufacturing cost (or they simply made loads, and had a test to reject ‘bad ones’—either way, it sounds costly).

Taken from: http://www.timstinchcombe.co.uk/synth/MS20_study.pdf

So just like another user mentioned, the hiss most likely lies in the transistors within the filter and possibly VCA, not the noise source within the oscillator design.
Old 12th June 2013
  #2670
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asynchro_nous ➡️
How about some thoughts on a specific and straightforward EQ solution, -- as in frequency, slope, and dB cut amount -- that preserves the unique MS sound?
I am no eq expert and I have never heard an original in person, but I read the new MS-20 mini is brighter and hotter than the original. So I cut the highs on my cheapo mixer and that cut the noise A LOT. I am still happy with the sound. Its highs are sufficient with the LPF open. I was running with the master volume at 6 and the oscillators at max. My mixer channel about half.

I expected this synth to be a little noisy and I am not disappointed with its performance.

Other Analogs amd hybrids I own are an Anushri, Monotribe/tron, currently dismantled Poly61, SK50d, and a small Eurorack.
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