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New Korg MS-20 Mini
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #211
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hamburglar ➑️
I for one don't suspect an SQ-10 sequencer coming, as analog sequencing seems too 'archaic' even with this release in mind, though I think it would be awesome.
I for one think that the Elektron Analog Four will make a much nicer sequencer and sound companion for the MS20 mini...(I did look at the A4 specs and it will scale to v/oct or hz/oct) That's what I'm thinking about exactly..
Old 27th January 2013
  #212
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
New MS20 - why no memories/ effects?

I just don't get it. So many new analog synths coming out, yet so few of them take advantage of technological advances, with memories and effects. For example:

Minibrute: nothing (as far as I know)
Minitaur: nothing initally, only subsequently implemented
Sub phatty: 16 - are they having a joke?
New MS20: nothing

The last one is a real kick in the guts. With some memory locations and effects taken from Korg's proven Kaoss line, surely this would have been a killer synth. As it is, it may sound good, but in terms of practicalities, there's simply no point, it has the same shortcomings as the original.

What's the deal? Surely this kind of stuff should be second-nature - shouldn't it?
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #213
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
I prefer no memory and no built in effects. The new MS-20 is all the better for remaining brutally simple.

But that's like, just my opinion man.
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #214
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kraku's Avatar
+1 to Phigwalla
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #215
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flat's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
+2 to Phigwalla
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #216
Gear Maniac
 
Lotus Voltage's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by omvibes ➑️
I just don't get it. So many new analog synths coming out, yet so few of them take advantage of technological advances, with memories and effects. For example:

Minibrute: nothing (as far as I know)
Minitaur: nothing initally, only subsequently implemented
Sub phatty: 16 - are they having a joke?
New MS20: nothing

The last one is a real kick in the guts. With some memory locations and effects taken from Korg's proven Kaoss line, surely this would have been a killer synth. As it is, it may sound good, but in terms of practicalities, there's simply no point, it has the same shortcomings as the original.

What's the deal? Surely this kind of stuff should be second-nature - shouldn't it?
Just use external effects. There is nothing stopping you putting any of these synths through a Kaoss Pad, Lexicon, Eventide etc or adding effects with plugins in a DAW, whatever you want.

I'd rather have a dedicated high quality effects unit than low quality built in effects on a synth.
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #217
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JSt0rm's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
because to have memory you need to use some kind of digital encoder. Unless you want motor driven pots for every parameter?

To open up this thread to the larger discussion:

Has any synth had something like this? How does the buchla 200e handles knob memory? Or does it not?
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #218
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🎧 10 years
People don't generally buy an ms20 so that they can store patches.
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #219
Deleted 4d80fd1
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus Voltage ➑️
Just use external effects. There is nothing stopping you putting any of these synths through a Kaoss Pad, Lexicon, Eventide etc or adding effects with plugins in a DAW, whatever you want.

I'd rather have a dedicated high quality effects unit than low quality built in effects on a synth.
exactly. The only synth I have where I appreciate the effects is the kurzweil. Otherwise .. forget it. anyway I like the idea of having a closer than not reproduction of the original ms20.
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #220
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Lotus Voltage's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by omvibes ➑️
I just don't get it. So many new analog synths coming out, yet so few of them take advantage of technological advances, with memories and effects. For example:

Minibrute: nothing (as far as I know)
Minitaur: nothing initally, only subsequently implemented
Sub phatty: 16 - are they having a joke?
New MS20: nothing

The last one is a real kick in the guts. With some memory locations and effects taken from Korg's proven Kaoss line, surely this would have been a killer synth. As it is, it may sound good, but in terms of practicalities, there's simply no point, it has the same shortcomings as the original.

What's the deal? Surely this kind of stuff should be second-nature - shouldn't it?
If you need built in effects and patch storage then you should get the Elektron Analog 4.

Studio Electronic's Code/Omega/SE-1X/ATC-X also have patch memory (but no effects).

MFB Dominion also has patch memory (but no effects).
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #221
PES
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PES's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
First of all, having presets complicates things and therefore adds to the cost. On the MS20, it would also mean applying some kind of robotic arms to the unit that would patch the patch cables for you when needed (which admittedly would look very cool).

Effects also means more components and development time. I think it's better to have the freedom to choose what effects to buy yourself, rather than have an unappealing (to you) selection on the unit that you won't use anyway (use the money you save on the synth not having internal effects, and buy that Kaoss Pad).

I understand the appeal and convenience of having those features on a synth, but on a pure analog unit it just adds too much cost compared to a digital synth where all that's needed is some additional code.
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #222
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LiveFromKyoto's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Because they can save money, keep the price low, and incentivize you to buy a Kaoss pad as well. Generally on-board FX aren't aren't going to touch the external stuff you can get (Strymon, Moog Eventide) anyway. There are a few exceptions where they do a really good job and make them part of the instrument (Access stuff, classic Juno) but by & large you're better off picking & choosing your own stuff.
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #223
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🎧 10 years
I personally would rather have the new MS20 WITHOUT cheap Korg effects/unnecessary A/D and D/A.


Adding memory to analog synths poses another set of problems, including needing digital microcontrollers, limited resolution of pots/encoders used, etc. All of this significantly adds to the cost, and to some extent, detracts from the capabilities of the instrument.



The point is, you get a relatively cheap proper analog reissue of an old synth, it is both the novelty, and the expectation, that none of those fancy conveniences are in there. If you require absolute repeatability of every sound, buy a sampler. Otherwise just learn your settings. As you can see, in using the patch bay (the whole reason you'd buy this, IMHO) of the MS20 you are in no way going to be able to commit that to a preset, even if the rest of it was.
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #224
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shponglefan's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by omvibes ➑️
What's the deal? Surely this kind of stuff should be second-nature - shouldn't it?
In part, it's about keeping down costs (and hence, price).

And in the case of the MS-20, it's supposed to be a recreation of the original; so no memory or FX.
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #225
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Lotus Voltage's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm ➑️
Unless you want motor driven pots for every parameter?

To open up this thread to the larger discussion:

Has any synth had something like this? How does the buchla 200e handles knob memory? Or does it not?
I'm not sure about synths but there are some mixing desks that have fully automated motorized faders, pan pots etc that have recall. I imagine it adds to the cost significantly though and I'm not sure how reliable they are long term.
Old 27th January 2013
  #226
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Stevism's Avatar
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
I love that it's really true to the original...but UGH, how i wish they had made just one tiny little alteration, to allow a patch input to modulate pwm

i don't think ANYONE would have complained about that inconsistency haha
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #227
PES
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PES's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevism ➑️
I love that it's really true to the original...but UGH, how i wish they had made just one tiny little alteration, to allow a patch input to modulate pwm

i don't think ANYONE would have complained about that inconsistency haha
Actually, I think they would, and use it against Korg and in favour of $2k originals in endless forum debates. :p

And to be honest, I like the fact that they stayed true to the original (except for the inclusion of MIDI). If they started adding features, where would they stop? And when would the synth stop being an actual MS20 and rather become like those typical "authentic-Minimoog-clone-but-with-polyphony-and-additional-sampled-grand-pianos-just-because-we-can" VSTi things?

(if they added PWM input I'd demand aftertouch on the keyboard as well)
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #228
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus Voltage ➑️
I'm not sure about synths but there are some mixing desks that have fully automated motorized faders, pan pots etc that have recall. I imagine it adds to the cost significantly though and I'm not sure how reliable they are long term.
They aren't reliable or even the most precise. Even the best. Just another thing that if it doesn't wear out unexpectedly it will break the second your buddy helps you load in, that you won't be able to get parts for, everything mechanical wears out sooner than later. To implement that kind of feature on something like the MS20 or anything with more than a couple parameters would add several times to the cost.
Old 27th January 2013
  #229
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pinkerton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If this does well, which it most certainly will, there will be more analogs to look forward to from korg. You will likely get to have your PWM then probably. And I am kind of looking forward to korg making a new analog, hopefully a continuation of the monotribe.
Old 27th January 2013
  #230
Deleted 0fc8128
Guest
For that price I buy one for each preset!
Old 27th January 2013
  #231
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🎧 5 years
Yes, these last suggestions are why manufacturers should NOT listen to posters. Voyager lost the essential mini sound because of patch storage and digital signals interfering with the analog circuits. Adding 'modern' features can break a simple and powerful design. Korg know why someone with the most powerful DAW and VA synth collection would want just a simple synth.

B
Old 27th January 2013
  #232
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Forbidden Planet's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
As I'm reading this, an ad in the right hand frame offers me a KORG MS10 on Ebay for only 799 -mini MS20 will go for 200 less.
Old 27th January 2013 | Show parent
  #233
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rids's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira ➑️
Which makes the current price especially enticing, since the MS-20 originally had a list price of $750, right?

Definitely. Isn't everyone going to buy their mom one too

Can it really be this cheap to recreate original analogs that they already created in years past? If so, how in the world is Roland not recreating anything analog???? The very reason why I thought we never saw any recreation of these classics is because of the cost being too high. But Korg has proven (at least for this particular synth, and which might not be true for all vintage classics) that having the design already in place, it was easy for them to piece together the parts to make an identical synth in today's market.

I'm guessing Roland or Yamaha isn't coming to the table with an analog classic of their own yet, because of lack of parts... What would be stopping them. Is the MS-20 an exception and just really easy to put together for minimal cost?

Kudos to Korg for being the first to the block, because the MS-20 mini is now going to be in everyone's studio. The music industry will definitely benefit from this release.

And I agree, so glad they didn't add patch storage or fx, I rather use my own fx.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #234
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Rob Ocelot's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris ➑️
I don't want to sound like some sicko, but i definitely plan to buy one and saw off the keyboard and have it put in MS-50 like enclosure.

I plan to use it as an expander for the existing MS-20. Because at that price, it's a steal!!! Hell, i can buy three for the price of one MS-50. Plus, at its current size, i believe it will perfectly fit on top of MS-20.

From the demos i've heard, this thing definitely sounds pure analog and has that MS vibe in it.

I wonder many ppl would be interested in New MS-50 like expander unit.
I would be. I'd love a cheap way to expand the MS-20.

I wonder if the MS-20 Mini has the latent ability to do PWM like the original does? THAT would be a cool mod to do to the Mini. If it doesn't then I see some value in keeping an original MS-20 around.

If I remember correctly the MS-50 could do PWM and had a LM13600 based filter, as does the MS-10. I can see those models still being desirable.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #235
messiaen
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague ➑️
I don't think they'll drop in value, though it might slow down their appreciation. My guess is people like myself who don't care if something is vintage or not (if it sounds good) will go for the new one (if it sounds good) which means, of course, less interest and fewer buyers. But there will always be folks who want vintage no matter what.

My prediction is price increases will slow but then continue to rise (along with the rest of the vintage market) as the value of having a vintage MS-20 will become even greater now that "fakes" or "clones" exist if you understand my thinking.

For me the best thing about the analog renaissance is not having to care anymore what happens in the vintage market. It's a game I can happily leave behind. I'm so fed up with astronomical eBay prices, vintage synth hype, auction wars, getting sniped by bots, losing sleep over the condition of the gear until it arrives -- if it arrives -- and then, of course, discovering all the problems it has that the seller mysteriously never encountered, etc. Fvck all that. I'm done.

I hate to sound negative, but I have NEVER bought a single piece of vintage gear off eBay that fully lived up to the seller's claims. Not once.

Ha Ha I only bought one thing and that as ****ed so never again!

So I'm thrilled KORG has done this. Same for Tom Oberheim. I'd rather compromise a BIT on mojo and get a decent piece of gear rather than deal with more vintage headaches at this point in my life.

In any case, I feel like a total hypocrite saying this as I just bought an SH-2 off eBay. But I paid WAY too much for it and I'm certain it will have problems (although it DID look mint, I have to say). So take all of this for what it's worth (which isn't much ).
But where else are you going to get vintage stuff from?? and it'll always be a risk, but I totally agree with you, its great that companies are re-issuing stuff. Guitar companies do it all the day, Fender & Gibson just seem to make endless re-issues of classic strats and SGs etc, which never dents the 'vintage' market, but gives people without $00000's the chance for a classic type sound, I think its really great...now everyone is waiting for Roland to do the same and I bet next year there will be a re-issue of a classic monosynth!
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #236
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Rob Ocelot's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrightSide ➑️
I wouldn't be surprised if it is the biggest selling synth of all time.
I think it will sell well but biggest selling ever? No way.

To be selling in those numbers you need to appeal to not just keyboardists and synth heads, you need to cross the lines and get guitar players and even non musicians to buy it. The MicroKorg is the best selling synth of all time because of this --in spite of analog purists turning their noses up at it.

When I've demonstrated a monosynth to an average person their first comment is "why bother playing it when you can only play one note at a time?" If you can convince THAT person to buy a monosynth then the MS-20 Mini will be the biggest selling synth of all time. Until then a polysynth will have that crown (be it the M1, DX-7 or MicroKorg).
Old 28th January 2013
  #237
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Mefistophelees's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
The holy trinity of the 808, 909 and 303 became popular in part because they were cheap, they got used a lot and became part of the sound of certain types of music. Because of this they are now highly sought after and expensive.

I wonder if the same will happen with the MS-20 mini? Have Korg made themselves a future classic?
Old 28th January 2013
  #238
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Mefistophelees's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Sound wise, the demos I've heard so far are patchy but I've definitely heard some of the same character of my MS-20 in there.

I've never wanted to mod mine but if the PWM mod can be done to the new one, my drill and soldering iron are ready for action!
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #239
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Rob Ocelot's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rids ➑️
Can it really be this cheap to recreate original analogs that they already created in years past? If so, how in the world is Roland not recreating anything analog???? The very reason why I thought we never saw any recreation of these classics is because of the cost being too high. But Korg has proven (at least for this particular synth, and which might not be true for all vintage classics) that having the design already in place, it was easy for them to piece together the parts to make an identical synth in today's market.

I'm guessing Roland or Yamaha isn't coming to the table with an analog classic of their own yet, because of lack of parts... What would be stopping them. Is the MS-20 an exception and just really easy to put together for minimal cost?
I've suspected for a couple of years that something has happened to make mass manufacturing analog circuitry cheaper and easier. The usual line from the big manufacturers has been that setting up a production line and sourcing parts would not be cost effective. (read as: it's cheaper for us to crap out variations on the same ROMpler so why take a risk?) The other side of the coin is that someone has to do the basic research to determine if you can get newly made analog electronics (including SMT) to sound like analog electronics did in the past. I think a lot of the hard work has been done using the MS-20 as a template.

I guess it also depends on how the big company interprets nostalgia for it's legacy products. Roland seems to see them as trademarked names to exploit for marketing purposes. Korg on the other hand seems much more in tune with it's past and views the actual products as the reason for the enthusiasm. (Though Korg did try a little of the Roland approach with the MS-2000 -- using the MS line and aping the looks of the Mono/Poly)

Quote:
Kudos to Korg for being the first to the block, because the MS-20 mini is now going to be in everyone's studio. The music industry will definitely benefit from this release.
I'm waiting for the inevitable backlash -- that the MS-20 sound is everywhere, and people are sick of it. Kind of funny that everyone loves the sound that no one else is listening to and the minute it gains an inch of mainstream acceptance they hate it. Fickle.

Quote:
And I agree, so glad they didn't add patch storage or fx, I rather use my own fx.
I think a factor in the timing of the MS-20 Mini's release has been the response to the patch-less, effect-less Minibrute. If the public hated it then Arturia would take the heat.
Old 28th January 2013 | Show parent
  #240
PES
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PES's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ocelot ➑️
I think it will sell well but biggest selling ever? No way.

To be selling in those numbers you need to appeal to not just keyboardists and synth heads, you need to cross the lines and get guitar players and even non musicians to buy it. The MicroKorg is the best selling synth of all time because of this --in spite of analog purists turning their noses up at it.

When I've demonstrated a monosynth to an average person their first comment is "why bother playing it when you can only play one note at a time?" If you can convince THAT person to buy a monosynth then the MS-20 Mini will be the biggest selling synth of all time. Until then a polysynth will have that crown (be it the M1, DX-7 or MicroKorg).
I agree, and besides polyphony I think presets and ease of use can't be underestimated when trying to hit a wide market. Even if you were able to convince your average guitar hobbyist or hip knob twiddler that a mono synth is a good idea, they would probably go for a preset capable one like the Mopho Keyboard before the MS20.

Or at least a simpler laid out one like the Minibrute or Sub Chubby, as I imagine that black little wall of knobs and patch points might seem a bit threatening to a synth novice.
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