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-   -   New Korg MS-20 Mini (https://gearspace.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/806481-new-korg-ms-20-mini.html)

shponglefan 26th January 2013 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jachin boaz (Post 8679132)
I dont get the manufacturers , why is the world so obessed with perfection ?

Because when you get synths like, oh, the Slimphatty, which does drift out of tune, people bitch endlessly about that instead. In fact, I'm seen some people claim that the SP is a defective product due to tuning issues.

So really, there's no pleasing people.

GGreen 26th January 2013 02:50 PM

xanderbeanz

So is this definitely a digitally tuned pair of oscillators? Does this mean we can't tune or detune them ourselves? What about setting up a nice, slightly detuned "beating" sound? The monotribe's osc isn't even tuneable lol.

It seems you have problems with reading comprehension.

So here is a nice pretty picture.

http://cdn.synthtopia.com/wp-content...ms-20-mini.jpg

Also to all those complaining about synths that stay in tune.

You do realise that those of us older than 14 had these synths with endless tuning problems the first time round.

The reason why all modern synths have solid tuning abilities is when they didnt everyone complained about the lack of stable tuning.

It is also quite useful when you wish to play your synth outside of the context of retrohipsterBOCwannabee80'sbeardandsandalwearingmusicmadebytrustfundw a n k e r sfromsanfransisoorhackney.

spaceacademy 26th January 2013 02:58 PM

My main concern is that the new one makes my original one drop in value.

With that in mind I will say now the new one doesnt sound anywhere near as good as the original - even if the new one sounds exactly the same, better , or is just a little different. I fully intend to repeat this line until the earth stands still. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jachin boaz (Post 8679163)
i sold an ms2o some time back but missed it alot and i am wishing i had not sold it but will i buy the new one ?

no , i just think the older synths are a better investment , have a better aged sound and some how a magic you cant find in new gear

As you can see Jochins comment. Even though he misses his MS20 badly he will not buy the new one even if it sounds just the same + it just wont be as good an investment(cough cough). No agenda obviously...

recnsci 26th January 2013 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by volumetrik (Post 8679474)
From another forum:
The control voltage from the ribbon "keyboard" and the vco knob get routed through a 16-bit MCU microcontroller

Thing is, if you want patching panel on MinMS to work as in original units (no problemo for audio rate modulation of VCOs pitch) this ADC->processing->DAC has to be really really fast, and all pitch related modulation patch points would have to pass trough MCU as well. Not only it's trickie but it would mean major rework of original VCOs. And they have mentioned in specs that (ubercrude) original VCA was a bit upgraded for lower noise, I guess they would mention radical changes in VCOs, right? My guess is that there is simply DAC instead of keyboard resistor string and that you have auto calibration of of that linear pitch CV. And, MS line didn't use any form of temperature compensation, it's quite resistant to temp drift as it is.

Ned Bouhalassa 26th January 2013 03:16 PM

Wow, GG, you're a real sweetheart...:facepalm:

AstroZon 26th January 2013 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reptil (Post 8678972)
Hmmm tempting...
Is it 1V/oct?

Good observation since the original was v/hz and gate.

Can't wait to see some user demos. They'll certainly probe the MS20 Mini like aliens on an overly curious ranch hand. We'll know what it can do then.

Carey M 26th January 2013 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Septik (Post 8679406)
V/Oct?? This is seriously a major selling point OVER the original..

No, as I understood, it's exactly like the original. Check the voltage specs from korg.com.

Xero 26th January 2013 03:35 PM

oct/v would be nice, but i'm not sure I could sell my original gray colored ms-20 with korg 35 just for that. I've also made a gate -> strig cable so that's not a huge deal either anymore. I think i'd still rather the 1/4 jacks. It sure is tempting though. I always thought those linear HZ/V oscillators had a certain charm to them, same with the yamaha hz/v oscillators....I wonder if any of that will be lost with this?

Deleted cda76ca 26th January 2013 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGreen (Post 8679493)
xanderbeanz

So is this definitely a digitally tuned pair of oscillators? Does this mean we can't tune or detune them ourselves? What about setting up a nice, slightly detuned "beating" sound? The monotribe's osc isn't even tuneable lol.

It seems you have problems with reading comprehension.

So here is a nice pretty picture.

http://cdn.synthtopia.com/wp-content...ms-20-mini.jpg

Also to all those complaining about synths that stay in tune.

You do realise that those of us older than 14 had these synths with endless tuning problems the first time round.

The reason why all modern synths have solid tuning abilities is when they didnt everyone complained about the lack of stable tuning.

It is also quite useful when you wish to play your synth outside of the context of retrohipsterBOCwannabee80'sbeardandsandalwearingmusicmadebytrustfundw a n k e r sfromsanfransisoorhackney.

This is the most prickish thing I've heard all year, seriously, go **** yourself.

I had heard a number of conflicting rumours from different people and I was simply trying to get to the bottom of it, it says VCO on the monotribe but it's still digitally tuned.

recnsci 26th January 2013 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGreen (Post 8679493)
retrohipsterBOCwannabee80'sbeardandsandalwearingmusicmadebytrustfundw a n k e r sfromsanfransisoorhackney.

funny thing is, this arrow missed xanderbeanz slightly.
Where slighly = 78 light years.


...
xander, I've dusted off my cristal ball and I can tell you this: don't worry about detuning VCOs on mini MS. (Cristal ball because I can't be 120% certain that Korg didn't pull off some unnecessary stupidity)

Demokid 26th January 2013 03:54 PM

I haven’t tried the new mini MS20 so I can’t say if it sounds like the original or not but it looks cute. Pretty cool that it has MIDI and can control other synth.
Still I’m not a fan of synths with mini keys. Why didn’t they make full size? That way it wouldn’t look like a kids toy.

Demokid 26th January 2013 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by volumetrik (Post 8678469)
im guessing its VCO but not like the old ones, btw did original MS-20 require warm up?

My MS20 does not require warm up time. It has always been very stable in tune.

Persemone 26th January 2013 04:01 PM

Aged sound... The comment fascinates me. Do slowly dying capacitors impart a magical instability? Could we narrow it down, wine-style, to a 'good year'?

I mean, the '79 has a fine bouquet, but you'd better play it before 2015 otherwise a tangy bitterness creeps in which offends the palate....?

If owners of an MS20 enjoy their instrument, keep it. Even if it loses 30% of its current value overnight, so what? It's a smaller hit than flipping the average workstation from new. The only issue is whether you're a collector or a player foremost. Collectors, this is just another risk market. Players, play on!

Demokid 26th January 2013 04:07 PM

My Moog Voyager actually sounds better now than when it was new. The oscillators are a bit out of tune. (not much, just in a nice way). When it was new I felt it was hard to detune the VCO’s slightly. If felt like first nothing happened then it got too much out of tune.

So analog synths are like fine vintage wine. That’s why I prefer analog over VA… its living :D

maisonvague 26th January 2013 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceacademy (Post 8679514)
My main concern is that the new one makes my original one drop in value.

I don't think they'll drop in value, though it might slow down their appreciation. My guess is people like myself who don't care if something is vintage or not (if it sounds good) will go for the new one (if it sounds good) which means, of course, less interest and fewer buyers. But there will always be folks who want vintage no matter what.

My prediction is price increases will slow but then continue to rise (along with the rest of the vintage market) as the value of having a vintage MS-20 will become even greater now that "fakes" or "clones" exist if you understand my thinking.

For me the best thing about the analog renaissance is not having to care anymore what happens in the vintage market. It's a game I can happily leave behind. I'm so fed up with astronomical eBay prices, vintage synth hype, auction wars, getting sniped by bots, losing sleep over the condition of the gear until it arrives -- if it arrives -- and then, of course, discovering all the problems it has that the seller mysteriously never encountered, etc. Fvck all that. I'm done.

I hate to sound negative, but I have NEVER bought a single piece of vintage gear off eBay that fully lived up to the seller's claims. Not once.

So I'm thrilled KORG has done this. Same for Tom Oberheim. I'd rather compromise a BIT on mojo and get a decent piece of gear rather than deal with more vintage headaches at this point in my life.

In any case, I feel like a total hypocrite saying this as I just bought an SH-2 off eBay. But I paid WAY too much for it and I'm certain it will have problems (although it DID look mint, I have to say). So take all of this for what it's worth (which isn't much gooof).

recnsci 26th January 2013 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobJB06 (Post 8679185)
And Golden Beers has a good point about servicing problems, how many techs work with SMT?

SM is actually easier to work with (with some decent tools) than TH. What is a bit of a problem is lead-free solder (first time is depths-of-hell experience for people used to Pb-Sn alloys)

Persemone 26th January 2013 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maisonvague (Post 8679724)
I don't think they'll drop in value, though it might slow down their appreciation. My guess is people like myself who don't care if something is vintage or not (if it sounds good) will go for the new one (if it sounds good) which means, of course, less interest and fewer buyers.

The number of vintage MS synths out there hasn't altered though, so no matter how it's sliced supply just went up and demand went down. Show me another market, for any commodity, where that didn't adversely affect prices. I don't mean to sound like the party pooper, but it's just basic economics. Having said that, I was totally wrong guessing on the new Moog price so maybe I'm heading for the economic scrapheap myself!

As for the ageing synth argument, I smell a little snake oil around, but even if it's true then by admission all analog equipment slowly dies from new, and so buying a used one is a total crapshoot. Where are we on the path of analog decay, and how badly will that affect playability?

golden beers 26th January 2013 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Optical Lens (Post 8679362)
Doesn't the mini use the same components? Just that it's newer?

Do components age like wine then :) And if it should be compared, it should be compared to a new "vintage" MS-20, which is impossible.

first off.. no it cant use the same components . not even the same value components.. sure it can for resistors capacitors etc..

but for components like operational amplifiers, they don't make the same ones any more.. you simply can't get the same spec.. the modern ones are far superior. lower noise, higher headroom etc..

so i would suspect that the new MS20 would have a more high fidelity sound to it for that reason. less noise, less grunt.


second off.. i disagree with maisonvague on this question of ageing components.. the only thing that happens with age is that capacitors become less efficient. so it's possible there will be a tiny change to the sound in some cases, but i would've thought, nothing that you could pick up on consciously and certainly not the reason vintage synths sound so bloody good. they may sound good because of the components being of a different era, but not because the components have aged over time.

recnsci 26th January 2013 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Persemone (Post 8679752)
As for the ageing synth argument, I smell a little snake oil around

All electronic parts age, in some cases it's quite noticable or even dramatic (like electrolytic capacitors or potentiometers) in other cases it's negligible. What is bigger issue IMHO is new parts vs. old parts (old as in "manufactured with old manufacturing processes")

Looping Loddar 26th January 2013 04:37 PM

If the Mini-MS-20 had the digital Oscillators of the Prophet 12: I would prefer this very much! The OSC of the MS-20 are the worst analog OSC i knew. Additionally the Mini-MS-20 don't have PWM.

Necron 99 26th January 2013 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maisonvague (Post 8679724)
I don't think they'll drop in value, though it might slow down their appreciation. My guess is people like myself who don't care if something is vintage or not (if it sounds good) will go for the new one (if it sounds good) which means, of course, less interest and fewer buyers. But there will always be folks who want vintage no matter what.

My prediction is price increases will slow but then continue to rise (along with the rest of the vintage market) as the value of having a vintage MS-20 will become even greater now that "fakes" or "clones" exist if you understand my thinking.

For me the best thing about the analog renaissance is not having to care anymore what happens in the vintage market. It's a game I can happily leave behind. I'm so fed up with astronomical eBay prices, vintage synth hype, auction wars, getting sniped by bots, losing sleep over the condition of the gear until it arrives -- if it arrives -- and then, of course, discovering all the problems it has that the seller mysteriously never encountered, etc. Fvck all that. I'm done.

I hate to sound negative, but I have NEVER bought a single piece of vintage gear off eBay that fully lived up to the seller's claims. Not once.

So I'm thrilled KORG has done this. Same for Tom Oberheim. I'd rather compromise a BIT on mojo and get a decent piece of gear rather than deal with more vintage headaches at this point in my life.

In any case, I feel like a total hypocrite saying this as I just bought an SH-2 off eBay. But I paid WAY too much for it and I'm certain it will have problems (although it DID look mint, I have to say). So take all of this for what it's worth (which isn't much gooof).

Very well said. I've bought vintage digital gear off ebay when the prices were fair and I have had good luck in that department. Vintage analog on the other hand, no way. You're right on the **** sellers who jack the prices up to 4x what it's really worth. Moog and Korg both have the balls and the foresight to remake what they made best. If only Roland would get off their arrogant asses, quit making the garbage their making, and re-release what they made best.

maisonvague 26th January 2013 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Persemone (Post 8679752)
The number of vintage MS synths out there hasn't altered though, so no matter how it's sliced supply just went up and demand went down. Show me another market, for any commodity, where that didn't adversely affect prices. I don't mean to sound like the party pooper, but it's just basic economics.

I would totally agree if we were talking about a normal market. But the market for vintage synths is not normal. It's like dealing in antiques, coins or stamps, baseball or Pokemon cards, or vintage comics. People are nuts for these things and don't necessarily make purchase decisions based on sensible economics (speaking from personal experience).

himalaya 26th January 2013 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maisonvague (Post 8679724)

I hate to sound negative, but I have NEVER bought a single piece of vintage gear off eBay that fully lived up to the seller's claims. Not once.

.

Same here.
That's why I hope the vintage eBay market will die a miserable death, as it surely deserves (but sadly will not happen).

I really hope that anyone who is interested in analog synths will stay away from the second hand market and instead will invest in one of th new analog synths. This cash would surely be better used by those companies, to support them and help in developing more new toys, rather then feed the pockets of the vintage speculators( "hmm, it really costs $XX, but I will try $XXX, there's bound to be a sucker who will fall for that!").

Speaking of the MS-20 and any differences in sound between the vintage and the new, I honestly doubt that it's worth the difference in price! For that difference (which at present is about £750!!!! Since, the new MS20 is £600, the original vintage MS-20 goes for £1350) I'd rather get another synth and have a much wider palette of sounds than just by having one vintage MS-20.

golden beers 26th January 2013 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kraku (Post 8679373)
Why do people always bring up the SMT components of new analog synths? You want to fix the synth yourself? People don't complain about Korg using SMT on any of their digital synths so why complain with this one either?

well i brought it up because there's some components in my MS20 that have failed in the past. .. if we're to believe like for like "carbon copy" circuits in the new one, this would also mean that the new version has the same design weaknesses and will also have components crap out from time to time.

Phaidon 26th January 2013 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmicide (Post 8678638)
must resist....

you cannot...

Lotus Voltage 26th January 2013 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Looping Loddar (Post 8679778)
If the Mini-MS-20 had the digital Oscillators of the Prophet 12: I would prefer this very much! The OSC of the MS-20 are the worst analog OSC i knew. Additionally the Mini-MS-20 don't have PWM.


You can put the Prophet 12 (or any other synth) through the Mini MS20 - it has an external audio signal processor.

maisonvague 26th January 2013 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necron 99 (Post 8679779)
If only Roland would get off their arrogant asses, quit making the garbage their making, and re-release what they made best.

I bet that by the time they DO decide to re-issue something we will have all moved on to better and greater things. The folks at Roland are totally out of step with the current market. They posted a 1.9 billion YEN loss in their March 2012 annual report which makes for three straight years in a row of massive losses. Not looking good.

ROLAND CORP (7944:Osaka): Financial Statements - Businessweek

Quote:

Originally Posted by himalaya (Post 8679783)
That's why I hope the vintage eBay market will die a miserable death ...

Hear, hear! A most miserable death! I've promised myself that SH-2 is the last piece of vintage kit I will buy (at least for the remainder of the year lol).

Macky 26th January 2013 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synth Buddha (Post 8679178)
(although the controller is very nice for controlling softsynths that actually do sound good).
.


Synth Buddha... can you tell me what happens when switching sofsynths?
I assume its midi learn and the controller has no recall, so is it just a case of re-learning.... sorry i noodle with guitars most of the time

cheers
Macky

Septik 26th January 2013 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Looping Loddar (Post 8679778)
If the Mini-MS-20 had the digital Oscillators of the Prophet 12: I would prefer this very much! The OSC of the MS-20 are the worst analog OSC i knew. Additionally the Mini-MS-20 don't have PWM.

I totally disagree, I way prefer the MS20 oscs over the P12... But the MS20 has a great ESP so you can stick whatever you want through it if that floats your boat kfhkh

ozy 26th January 2013 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100th Monkey (Post 8677347)
Neither, it's clearly a fake plastic case built around an iPad mini running iMS-20.

even worse:

there a small Casio watch within. the last generation, with internet connection.

It runs a internet browser linking to a "cloud" version of a iMS-20