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New Korg MS-20 Mini
Old 11th October 2013
  #3511
Gear Head
 
benjarvis's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I've heard comparisons with a classic MS20 of various patches, but not this type of patch (open VCA and filter cutoff really low.) Is the noise present in an original? Is this Korg "over engineering" the noise back in? Because I'd bet that the noise is there in an original one. But you are right, definitely user taste dependent. But to be fair, proper EQ and/or noise gate would fix it no problem. I've never met a synth that I loved that didn't need a little something something in the DAW. I always figured that was a fair trade off. Thanks for making it audible for the folks that haven't bought one yet. I can see how it may be a deal breaker for some.
Old 11th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3512
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Psychlist1972's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjarvis ➑️
I've heard comparisons with a classic MS20 of various patches, but not this type of patch (open VCA and filter cutoff really low.) Is the noise present in an original? Is this Korg "over engineering" the noise back in? Because I'd bet that the noise is there in an original one. But you are right, definitely user taste dependent. But to be fair, proper EQ and/or noise gate would fix it no problem. I've never met a synth that I loved that didn't need a little something something in the DAW. I always figured that was a fair trade off. Thanks for making it audible for the folks that haven't bought one yet. I can see how it may be a deal breaker for some.
I'd love to know from someone who has an original.

I haven't heard too many demos of the original playing anything other than aggressive sounds. If someone here has an MS-20, would be great to hear how it sounds at around 2-4 on the LP filter and a sharp attack and decay on the vca envelope.

Regarding the noise gate: unless I completely misunderstand how a noise gate works, it wouldn't help here. You'd need to find a different way to bury the noise. None of my other analogs (including my dotcom) are like this; it's unique to the MS-20. I think it just has a crap VCA in there. Maybe a cheap op-amp or something. Lots of power otherwise.

Pete
Old 11th October 2013
  #3513
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goldphinga's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
My original with 35 filter is very quiet. No hiss. But it's general tone is not as bright as the mini-
Old 11th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3514
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R3Member's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldphinga ➑️
My original with 35 filter is very quiet. No hiss. But it's general tone is not as bright as the mini-
No hiss in the original? You actually made the following statements a few months ago saying the original was hissy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldphinga ➑️
I tested the ms20 mini next to my original korg 35 version. Because the general tone is brighter in the mini it accentuates the noise in the circuitry. Believe me the original is also hissy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldphinga ➑️
Regarding the hiss- as I've said, I don't think the Mini is any more hissy; just as the general tone is brighter the hiss that's inherent in the MS circuitry is accentuated a little more at times- I wouldn't say it's quieter than the old MS though.
Old 11th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3515
Gear Maniac
 
T513's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Looking through these threads I must have gotten one of the first units in the States a few months ago. Noisy? Mine isn't in the slightest unless I'm just going crazy patching everything.
Old 11th October 2013
  #3516
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goldphinga's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by R3Member ➑️
No hiss in the original? You actually made the following statements a few months ago saying the original was hissy...
I should have pointed out I've had my original ms recallibrated and fully serviced recently in part because the keyboard tracking was out and the glide was sticking making it unplayable. It's now much less hissy. I thought I'd posted about it already but generally I keep away from here these days mainly because every thread turns into nitpicking and fighting. apologies and hope this clarifies things.
Old 11th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3517
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R3Member's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Certainly not trying to start any more nitpicking and fighting than what already went down, haha. I'm just taking into consideration that many new MS-20 Mini owners will still be popping up here and might not be aware of the real comparisons and conclusions that were made. That said, it's worth repeating for any new comers that the Mini is in no way defective, there is indeed a low level hiss, but this hiss was also part of how the original sounded.
Old 11th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3518
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SonicBern's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by graphs ➑️
Thanks for recording that. The noise makes it sound like you recorded it on cassette tape or something! I would be pretty unhappy with that level of hiss so will definitely wait until I can try one out in person and hear if the specific unit I have my hands on exhibits that kind of noise. I mean, you can just not make sounds the way you describe, but what you did in the demo are decent sounds that would be unusable in a sparse mix, you know?
Re Pete's demo, on a dull set of PC stand alone speakers, the noise was inaudible, on a set of HF response/range headphones it was there only if you listened for it and once you key on to it you brain then helps you hear the gating effect (very soft low barely audible analog circuit hiss stopping when the main sound stops)...

I suspect end Customers would not hear it in a mix, especially if lots of other analog processes were in play to add that character to the sound...

Just comes down to your WANTS, NEEDS and SENSITIVITIES as to whether it is a problem.

The always on floor noise of say a MINIAK on headphone out is annoying, but its main outs are clean, so via a mixer not an issue...




Now this is tape hiss
Old 11th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3519
Gear Maniac
 
sensorfold's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I've had the MS20 mini for about 3 months. I have about 50 patches that I have written down on the blank templates. I can only sum up my experience with the unit and state that if Korg were to issue a recall to fix the "noise issue" I would NOT send in my unit. I would be afraid that it might not come back as good as it is right now. Just my .02.
Old 12th October 2013
  #3520
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NoVi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
As stated earlier, the only way to put an end to this discussion is talking patches, serial no's and audio clips to see if Korg has cleaned up its act somewhere along the line.
Old 12th October 2013
  #3521
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isham's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoVi ➑️
As stated earlier, the only way to put an end to this discussion is talking patches, serial no's and audio clips to see if Korg has cleaned up its act somewhere along the line.
And 2 or more ms in the same room with same recording chain
Old 13th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3522
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
I actually had one reserved for me in a store but seriously this thing is noisy in a way that there is no chance anyone in here would accept it even in a cheap Casio 20€ synth so I don't know why most accept in this, is it denial? I also had abit trouble to feel connected when I played, like the sound somehow never could be punchy there always felt like some sort of disconnect or delay with the playing on it. I'm not sure how to explain I just tried to do some different sounds but I never really got anything to sound really instant and punchy but instead always abit of wobbling roundness around the sound and maybe the noise took away abit of that clear feeling when you press a key and hear clear sound. Sure many sounds was good but I never felt connected when playing with them, either low fussy or not instant enough. And then the noise for me it was almost present at all times and I don't know why we accept it?

And this must have been a new model one since they only get 1 each month and this one just arrived.

I want to like it because some sounds it can make is stuff I wanted in my arsenal for years but this make me almost just go for the real deal the old one. Noise this loud there is no chance that Korg missed it in their production they just did a cheap decision and failed to make us fans happy I can't believe it really. Because 50€ more for a noise free unit, yes please? No the question is will they fix it, it doesn't seem like it since this issue is taped all over the internet and they are still not fixing it. Anyone heard about it because I will wait then until it's fixed I think or if someone can fix it for me, using a noisegate or cutting highs with EQ will cut the sound also and take away character.
Old 13th October 2013
  #3523
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SonicBern's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Stylo: The art of noise

''Repetition + Transmission + Noise = Style''
Old 13th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3524
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3sslah ➑️
I actually had one reserved for me in a store but seriously this thing is noisy in a way that there is no chance anyone in here would accept it even in a cheap Casio 20€ synth so I don't know why most accept in this, is it denial? I also had abit trouble to feel connected when I played, like the sound somehow never could be punchy there always felt like some sort of disconnect or delay with the playing on it. I'm not sure how to explain I just tried to do some different sounds but I never really got anything to sound really instant and punchy but instead always abit of wobbling roundness around the sound and maybe the noise took away abit of that clear feeling when you press a key and hear clear sound. Sure many sounds was good but I never felt connected when playing with them, either low fussy or not instant enough. And then the noise for me it was almost present at all times and I don't know why we accept it?

And this must have been a new model one since they only get 1 each month and this one just arrived.

I want to like it because some sounds it can make is stuff I wanted in my arsenal for years but this make me almost just go for the real deal the old one. Noise this loud there is no chance that Korg missed it in their production they just did a cheap decision and failed to make us fans happy I can't believe it really. Because 50€ more for a noise free unit, yes please? No the question is will they fix it, it doesn't seem like it since this issue is taped all over the internet and they are still not fixing it. Anyone heard about it because I will wait then until it's fixed I think or if someone can fix it for me, using a noisegate or cutting highs with EQ will cut the sound also and take away character.
You hate practically everything about playing it (you feel "disconnected" while playing it, can't get it to sound "punchy" etc) but you're going to wait and see if they fix the "noise problem?"

How can anyone take a post like this remotely seriously?

Wow...
Old 13th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3525
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asynchro_nous ➑️
You hate practically everything about playing it (you feel "disconnected" while playing it, can't get it to sound "punchy" etc) but you're going to wait and see if they fix the "noise problem?"

How can anyone take a post like this remotely seriously?

Wow...
Yeah I wonder if it is because the keybed is sloppy or the actual synth structure, and of course the noise problem add to stuff that should sound clear and punchy doesn't. Always having a quite high hiss on the sounds doesn't add to the sound if you ask me.

Do you own one? You find it ok? Because you jumping me here sound like you are really licking some Korg balls without having an honest view about the problems. And just accepting it will never make Korg fix it, people with your biased attitude make me sick really.
Old 13th October 2013
  #3526
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SonicBern's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years






Old 13th October 2013
  #3527
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BobTheDog's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3sslah ➑️
Yeah I wonder if it is because the keybed is sloppy or the actual synth structure, and of course the noise problem add to stuff that should sound clear and punchy doesn't. Always having a quite high hiss on the sounds doesn't add to the sound if you ask me.

Do you own one? You find it ok? Because you jumping me here sound like you are really licking some Korg balls without having an honest view about the problems. And just accepting it will never make Korg fix it, people with your biased attitude make me sick really.
I wouldn't say he was biased, sounded like sense to me.
Old 14th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3528
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R3Member's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3sslah ➑️
I actually had one reserved for me in a store but seriously this thing is noisy in a way that there is no chance anyone in here would accept it even in a cheap Casio 20€ synth so I don't know why most accept in this, is it denial?
It's not denial. Any unmodified MS-20 containing the original Korg-35 filter will have low leveled noise in it. The noise is part of how the original filter operates, which is why can self-oscillate and aggressively overdrive the sound way it does. This is exactly what Korg had aimed to recreate with the Mini and delivered. The only people whom are in denial or left feeling disappointed are the ones who are totally clueless about how the original sounded. It's also possible that you've only heard the mk2 version with the different filter or one that has been somehow modified, therefore not the original MS-20 that the Mini is actually modeled after. If you were a real MS-20 "fan" whom knew what you wanted from the Mini, you would know this already. There's lots of discussion about the difference in filters on the web and even Korg's website explains how the Mini uses the Korg-35 filter.
Old 14th October 2013
  #3529
Gear Maniac
 
jabberwalky's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I don't have the mini yet, but will tomorrow. I've owned upwards of 15-20 vintage analogs, and noise is part of nearly all of them. Some are better than others. Even various 80s digitals have unwanted hums/hisses. It's a part of using hardware. I suppose I'll have a more founded opinion tomorrow.
Old 14th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3530
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Firechild's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by R3Member ➑️
It's not denial. Any unmodified MS-20 containing the original Korg-35 filter will have low leveled noise in it. The noise is part of how the original filter operates, which is why can self-oscillate and aggressively overdrive the sound way it does. This is exactly what Korg had aimed to recreate with the Mini and delivered. The only people whom are in denial or left feeling disappointed are the ones who are totally clueless about how the original sounded. It's also possible that you've only heard the mk2 version with the different filter or one that has been somehow modified, therefore not the original MS-20 that the Mini is actually modeled after. If you were a real MS-20 "fan" whom knew what you wanted from the Mini, you would know this already. There's lots of discussion about the difference in filters on the web and even Korg's website explains how the Mini uses the Korg-35 filter.
Yes you are right , but if Korg is clever they will very soon release a Mini mk II based on the rev 2 filter which in my opinon after owning one for 10 years is far far superior , more musical and completely noise free.
Old 14th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3531
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R3Member's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firechild ➑️
Yes you are right , but if Korg is clever they will very soon release a Mini mk II based on the rev 2 filter which in my opinon after owning one for 10 years is far far superior , more musical and completely noise free.
Considering that Korg also chose to model the Legacy Collection software, the DS-10 software, the iMS-20 software, the MS-20EX within the Kronos, the MS-20 filter within the King Korg, plus all the Monotrons and Monotribes after the Korg-35 filter, both Korg and the general consensus says otherwise.
Old 17th October 2013
  #3532
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goldphinga's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by R3Member ➑️
Considering that Korg also chose to model the Legacy Collection software, the DS-10 software, the iMS-20 software, the MS-20EX within the Kronos, the MS-20 filter within the King Korg, plus all the Monotrons and Monotribes after the Korg-35 filter, both Korg and the general consensus says otherwise.
Agreed. My 35 is the biz.
Old 17th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3533
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
The LM13600 OTA board was also designed to emulate the sound of original Korg-35 filter. But does that actually mean all the emulations (including mini) are rubbish?

I would choose the MS-20 mini of all of them but based on completely different valuations.
Old 18th October 2013
  #3534
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NoVi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
OK, this is completely 'unscientific' and done just for fun. But I was interested to see how the iMS-20 iPad compared to the MS-20 Mini when I dialed in the same patch settings for a few different sounds (Bass, Noise, Brass, Whistle, Lead).

I found two things interesting:
- with rather identical settings there is in some cases a real big difference soundwise between the two,
- the iMS-20 is an incredible piece of software given its pricing.

After recording I realized that I recorded the iMS-20 at much lower volume setting, so I compensated it by some gain raising, maybe leading to some more noise. I recorded both over the same route (directly to Apogee Symphony IO).

Anyway, here is the link:
https://soundcloud.com/ewaldk/ms20test
Old 18th October 2013
  #3535
Gear Maniac
 
T513's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
After three months, I wish they made the screen printing more visible on every patch connection....easy to remember knobs function but all of the patch points not so much (for me). Keys feel good and fast for my small hands.
Old 18th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3536
Gear Maniac
 
Ljudterapi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firechild ➑️
Yes you are right , but if Korg is clever they will very soon release a Mini mk II based on the rev 2 filter which in my opinon after owning one for 10 years is far far superior , more musical and completely noise free.
Totally agree...and I tend to trust my ears and taste despite what Korg and the general consensus says.
Old 19th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3537
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Psychlist1972's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabberwalky ➑️
I don't have the mini yet, but will tomorrow. I've owned upwards of 15-20 vintage analogs, and noise is part of nearly all of them. Some are better than others. Even various 80s digitals have unwanted hums/hisses. It's a part of using hardware. I suppose I'll have a more founded opinion tomorrow.
As an owner of a Juno 106 in the 80s (actually a HS-60), noise was definitely part of the sound. In that one, if you cranked the volume and had chorus on full, you got a long swishy sound like you had seashell up to your ear

With the MS-20, I almost wish the sound was constant and not gated. It's not something that kills me, but I commented earlier because people were saying there was no noise. That's different from saying noise is part of the character, which is a more truthful statement.

And yeah, the build quality on the mini is crap (especially the plastic fake nuts* on the sockets), and the very wobbly sockets themselves, but the original was a budget synth as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is equally as wobbly.

* anyone know if those are available from Korg as replacements?

Pete
Old 19th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3538
Gear Maniac
 
sensorfold's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 ➑️
As an owner of a Juno 106 in the 80s (actually a HS-60), noise was definitely part of the sound. In that one, if you cranked the volume and had chorus on full, you got a long swishy sound like you had seashell up to your ear

With the MS-20, I almost wish the sound was constant and not gated. It's not something that kills me, but I commented earlier because people were saying there was no noise. That's different from saying noise is part of the character, which is a more truthful statement.

And yeah, the build quality on the mini is crap (especially the plastic fake nuts* on the sockets), and the very wobbly sockets themselves, but the original was a budget synth as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is equally as wobbly.

* anyone know if those are available from Korg as replacements?

Pete
I don't doubt your unit has those problems. Mine does not. I'm not a Korg Fanboi. I've own(ed) Nord, Waldorf, Roland, SE and Korg. I'm certain Korg will not send me a check for this post. My unit exhibits some gated noise on the triangle wave until the LP filter is turned past 2. That is it. I've "searched" for noise relentlessly after reading a lot of these posts. I can't find it. Just had my hearing checked and doc told me it's excellent.
The build quality on mine is very good- no wobbly knobs or loose nuts. So all I can conclude is that some units are better than others. One thing is certain- I won't be selling mine. I'd advise people to make sure they get a money back trial period when buying one of these.
I guess I got lucky with this one. I listen thru the headphone out louder than I like to but still can't hear the noise. Not being "dishonest" only relaying my experience with the unit. Get a trial. If I had the noise I've heard on some posts I'd send it back. Mine is not going anywhere.
Old 20th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3539
Gear Maniac
 
sensorfold's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
One additional comment: this is not a squeaky clean synth. I guess it comes down to how you interpret noise. This synth, from my perception, uses noise as sort of a "carrier signal", for lack of a better description. You can "hear" it in the filter but once a patch is "completed" it is gone. This synth is not a Moog or Oberhiem or like most other synths but my unit does not produce any "hiss" or any other noise when I press a key. The only time it does is when I set the oscillator 1 to "noise".
Old 20th October 2013 | Show parent
  #3540
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R3Member's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sensorfold ➑️
This synth is not a Moog or Oberhiem or like most other synths but my unit does not produce any "hiss" or any other noise when I press a key. The only time it does is when I set the oscillator 1 to "noise".
The noise is very subtle, but it should be there if it's an MS-20. Go to the VCO mixer and turn down both OSC 1 & 2 to 0. Set HP filter to 0 cutoff and 0 peak. Set LP filter to 10 cutoff, then 0 peak. EG2 should be set to 0 hold, 0 attack, 0 decay, 10 sustain, then 0 release. At this point, when you press a key, you should hear a low level of hissy noise through headphones as you hold the key. From this point, you can raise the resonance, tweak the cutoff and it will produce a sound. As I've mentioned before, this is how the Korg-35 filter self-oscillates.

If your are not hearing noise at this point, please take a picture of your MS-20 Mini settings, record the results and post both here. If Korg somehow produced a "less noisy" batch of MS-20 units that don't sound like the original modeled after the original, it would be interesting to hear it.
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