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DSI Prophet 12
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1111
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil ➑️
This'll then be the "general rehearsal" P12 thread. LOL
And now moderator support for this fiasco of a thread as the inmates take over the asylum...

Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1112
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozy ➑️
indeed, what's the difference?

Sound design = extracting your music from an instrument, giving it your voice.

"COMMERCIAL sound design", "patch programming for the wide public" may mean something different.
I only wanted to show respect for Jexus without necessarily sharing his aesthetic. Discovering and nurturing ones own personal style is more difficult than becoming an expert at creating patches. The latter simply requires practice whereas the former requires introspection, self-awareness and self-confidence. Becoming better at sound design can build confidence, it's true -- and help you achieve your goals -- but it won't necessarily make you a better musician (or help you define those goals). So, for me, the "blow away factor" of his patches is only superficial. It's rather his successful connection with his inner muse which I admire. This, I feel, even more than programming skill, is what helps him most to transcend limitation and brings out the best in an instrument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozy ➑️

Good instrument = you realize that good musicians easily make it "their own", different musicians can bend it to their style.

prophet5 or korg m1 = both zawinul and jarre can get THEIR sound (two totally different sounds) out of it --> huge synth

korg m3 = everybody soiunds the same on it --> average synth

From what I hear in the demos, the prophet12 belongs to the first group.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, it sounds to me like you are saying the opposite of Jexus which is that the quality of the instrument still determines the outcome. The better the instrument, the more likely that a musician can make something of it. While it certainly helps to have a good instrument, I still believe that a good musician can make almost anything sound good.
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1113
ozy
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague ➑️
the quality of the instrument still determines the outcome.
No. No way.

No "determination".

A "good" instrument doesn't "determine" anything. Try giving a monkey a moog modular, or a B3, or a prophet t8

Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague ➑️
The better the instrument, the more likely that a good musician can make something of it.
The "better" an instrument, the more it allows a musician to work on it.

Of course, "better" here means:

flexible

tweakable

good-sounding at ANY latitude, not having a narrow "sweet spot" which limits experimentation

with a vast array of different filters, etc.

with a wide selection of interfaces and modulation which allow for different artistic gestures and styles

All of these elements let a musician's voice to be heard THROUGH the instrument

A RIGID, standardized instrument which needs extensive factory pre-programming and cosmetics just to avoid noise, crackle, aliasing, etc.,

will have one single "voice", usually not terribly charming, and will IMPOSE this voice on the musician

I quoted the Korg M3 for a reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague ➑️
I believe that a good musician can make almost anything sound good.
If we are in "give Mozart a Casio arranger" territory, I agree.

He will extract from that toy more than anybody could imagine, and more than I could extract from a great synth.

Absolute genius will always shine.

But.

If the issue is: "X is a talented musician AND sound designer, he has a sound in his mind, he wants to make it heard, he grabs a synthesizer and programs it",

there are machines that allow that,

and machines that stifle that.

Machines that will go with you to unexplored land,

and machines that will force you to "follow the hardware" along a narrow and short road

"Better" and "worse" machines, in my primitive parlance.
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1114
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I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozy ➑️
The "better" an instrument, the more it allows a musician to work on it.
Well, I can't deny that a good instrument really helps. The best piano I ever performed on is the Steinway concert grand in the chamber music hall at the Paris Conservatory. It helped considerably to make me sound better than I actually am!
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1115
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🎧 10 years
In my humble opinion (as if we need another opinion eh?) a true musician can make good music with limited equipment. However it's always nice to have an instrument that expands the range of possibilities. In that respect i think the P12 can be a really nice asset in any studio.

When this arrives in the stores i will go and try it, and then likely be frustrated that i can't afford it... lol. I do love the looks of it already.. like a modern day cross between a Jupiter 8 and a Prophet 5. It seems to have that tactileness and ease of use that i look for in synths, and which i even prefer over more abilities. Good thing the P12 has both then
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1116
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozy ➑️
A RIGID, standardized instrument which needs extensive factory pre-programming and cosmetics just to avoid noise, crackle, aliasing, etc.,

...

will have one single "voice", usually not terribly charming, and will IMPOSE this voice on the musician

...

and machines that will force you to "follow the hardware" along a narrow and short road
Sorry, no.

Hardware/programming options is/are not the limiting factor in all but the most simple of home keyboards.

Almost any basic rompler does have as many synth parameters as the most worshipped synths from yesteryear.
Don't even get me started on parameter numbers in digital synths, both hard and soft.

It is not the "hardware that you follow".

It is still the basic sound of the synth that matters - as exemplified in my comparison of Matrix 6 vs OB-8 or OB-X if you want to...

The M-6 still has more mod possibilities than any of the other two, yet just does not posess the same basic quality of sound.
And that is in the end more limiting than any number of parameters.
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1117
ozy
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➑️
Almost any basic rompler does have as many synth parameters as the most worshipped synths from yesteryear.
but those N parameters will be meaningless,

because most of their ranges will not really be useable for sound design.

It is not about "how many parameters", but about "how can you really use them".

Does the synth sound good from 0 to 10 of every parameter?

Of most?

Of many?


Or does the filter sound good only from 4 to 6, the envelope attack only from 0.5 to 1, the variable pulse only from 40 to 45%?

And above/below those levels, everything goes flat or distorted or shrill?

The number of sound sculting combinations dramatically decreases.

EG: the Korg DVP-1 has few parameters, but it "sounds good" along 80% of the extension of all parameters.

It does good "chipmunks", good "choirs", good "robots", good "tarzans", good "monsters". You need to push hard in the wrong place to get a shrill or dumb sound.

That makes for wide possibilities in sound design.

On the contrary, the Korg radias' vocoder has maybe 1 or 2 sweet spots. Out of them, it is harsh, or suffocated.

As for romplers:

suppose you have a rompler with mega-parameters, but its samples can't be transposed more than a cent otherwise they start chipmunking,

suppose you have 24-stage envelopes, but with no "snap"

suppose you have 128 kinds of filters, but they sound like the tone controls on you car's sound system.

(korg m3 anyone? I own one, and when I a/b it with a M1 I feel like "less is more". WAY more)

That's not "as good an instrument as anything else".

A good instrument will follow you when you go bass, when you go bells, when you go fat. It will let you layer a fat horn with some shining tines.

(prophet anyone?)

OR: it will have one or two "patches", but it will be hugely expressive as far as dynamics are concerned (rhodes anyone?)
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1118
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozy ➑️
...
Essentially you are saying the same as i am heh

You attribute to details what is the whole of the instrument. And the number of details is not terribly important.

And yes, all the little details summed make up the entire instrument, so if you get some of them "wrong" the entire instrument will suffer.

So essentially we have superb, good, useable and bland synths, based on how many of the parameters (no matter the number) the designer got right in the first place.

E.g. if you have a weak filter the snappyness of the envelopes means nothing, because the resulting sound is still uninteresting.
And then the whole synth suffers from that. And so on...

That is why some synths are more highly regarded than others - because the designers got everything right.
And that can be heard in demos.

It can also be heard in demos if a synth is lacking in some areas.
Old 17th February 2013
  #1119
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🎧 10 years
This thread reminds me of the minibrute thread
By that measure I beleive the p12 will be a resounding success

Sent from my HTC6435LVW
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1120
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rust Creep ➑️
This thread reminds me of the minibrute thread
Indeed, it follows a similar pattern of dubious discourse as new developments cease.

Time has slowed to a standstill.

I shudder to think of what else may ensue from the idleness.
Old 17th February 2013
  #1121
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🎧 10 years
Gods help this forum if we should turn to playing our synthesizers instead of judging things we've yet to know

Sent from my HTC6435LVW
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1122
ozy
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ozy's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rust Creep ➑️
if we should turn to doing something sensible instead of judging things we've yet to know
the whole internet would shut down in 5 minutes.

Wikipedia would founder amid a giant gurgling noise mixed to explosions, russian-asteroid-like.

Fragments of factoids would be scattered to the 4 (or multi-four) corners of the Universe,

combusted urban legends and spent shells from youtube demos would pepper the ionosphere, worsening global warming.

With no internet traffic left, hi-tech and infrastructure manufacturers would fail,

the dollar would crash,

misery would be spread to the whole industrialized world.

So, let's please keep the bull**** flowing.
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1123
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozy ➑️
the whole internet would shut down in 5 minutes.

Wikipedia would founder amid a giant gurgling noise mixed to explosions, russian-asteroid-like.

Fragments of factoids would be scattered to the 4 (or multi-four) corners of the Universe,

combusted urban legends and spent shells from youtube demos would pepper the ionosphere, worsening global warming.

With no internet traffic left, hi-tech and infrastructure manufacturers would fail,

the dollar would crash,

misery would be spread to the whole industrialized world.

So, let's please keep the bull**** flowing.
Yeah, but let it be wavetable bull**** so that you can morph between different kinds of crap.
Old 17th February 2013
  #1124
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hogberto's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
maybe somebody could put a new thread up when there's some actual news or demos of this synth, just to save me wasting any more of my life delving through this guff.
Old 17th February 2013
  #1125
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Rust Creep's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
LOL @ wavetable bull****

Sent from my HTC6435LVW
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1126
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maisonvague's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zahush76 ➑️
Yeah, but let it be wavetable bull**** so that you can morph between different kinds of crap.
Well, I still don't understand why the bull**** couldn't be implemented with DCOs which are proven to be stable enough to frequently modulate crap.
Old 17th February 2013
  #1127
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🎧 10 years
Well i hope you understand now why i keep toilet paper on my grp.
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1128
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synthguy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague ➑️
...it sounds to me like you are saying the opposite of Jexus which is that the quality of the instrument still determines the outcome. The better the instrument, the more likely that a musician can make something of it. While it certainly helps to have a good instrument, I still believe that a good musician can make almost anything sound good.
This is mostly true. Most should know the stories of the virtuoso musician who takes a nasty sounding cheap violin in the hands of an amateur and makes it sing. This is mostly true with electronic instruments too. Synths which I personally find unappealing like the Gaia and Venom sound much better when played by what some here would call a waniker.

But then, there's your own personal experience and impression. I can get nice sounds out of a Gaia and Venom, but half the time I end up fighting them. The Venom in particular seems made for the more "attitude oriented" EDM and industrial guys, which probably accounts for the name. And I was surprised at how difficult it was to program a Prophet 600. It seemed to be very much a "sweet spot" synth, as the filters were quite aggressive in carving into harmonics in a way I mostly found unpleasant. When I approached the Prophet 08, I was a little leery of it from all the whining about the Curtis sound many don't care for, but I was delighted with it. Yeah, it's not a Rev 2 Prophet 5, the filters are a shade more fizzy than beefy, but it's also not murky and muddled like the 600 could be.

I'm unsure of why so many don't like the Curtis sound. Maybe because it's not a P5 sound. Then again, a bunch here hate the Andromeda! That truly baffles me. The only thing I can think of is they like to make music filled with extensively modulated sequences of notes in moods running from somber and basic to heavily mangled and unusual. In which case, the synth with the most modulation options wins. But then that should include the Andy and P08, so all I can think of is that too many people are too random and quick to prejudge.

Those guys shouldn't like the Prophet 12. But just as sure as humans are fallen critters, some Curtis disdainer will hear a patch which hits them right in the pleasure center, and their eyes will be opened and mind changed. I have a pretty good idea of what this thing will be capable of, because like Dave and I and a few others have said, this thing is like a Poly Evolver and Mopho X4 and some other goodies crammed into the case. Leaving off the quad sequencer does seem like an odd omission for such a semi-modular monster, but that was Dave's decision. Regardless, this thing should have a pretty high gestalt factor, and be making all kinds of fresh patches for us for the foreseeable future.
Old 17th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1129
ozy
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy ➑️
I can get nice sounds out of a Gaia and Venom
no you can't

Anything, but not a Gaia or a Venom

[IMG]http://www.footcow.com/public/no_bull****.png[/IMG]
Old 18th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozy ➑️
no you can't

Anything, but not a Gaia or a Venom

[IMG]http://www.footcow.com/public/no_bull****.png[/IMG]
Roland Gaia does some types of sound quite well...but others it struggles at...it's not great for everything, not many synths are.

if find it's good for sequenced blippy parts and also for pads.
it's not good at bass...it's passable but not GOOD/GREAT.
Old 18th February 2013
  #1131
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Every day I check this thread hoping for something new (yes, I'm a loser). Every day I'm greeted by novel length posts full of stuff that has nothing to do with much of anything. It's like sexting with a chat bot.
Old 18th February 2013
  #1132
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🎧 10 years
ozy, that's why "can" is italicized, and I went on to mention epical struggles or something. If you can't get something musical out of a synth, no one would buy it, and people around here bought a few Gaia and Venoms. And like cresshead says, you can coax some nice sounds out of them. CAN.

The Prophet-08 isn't nearly as hard to deal with as far as getting cool textures from. The only thing I can think of as far as disdain for it is that it's not an SSM based Prophet-5. The spite for the Andromeda, I just can't fathom, but I'll grant the P5 lovers their points. Still, I have to wonder how many of them have actually had their hands on a Rev 2 Prophet-5.

And I think those who doubt the Prophet-12 have a clear shot at classic status don't comprehend what all those features mean. As a synthesist who has some time on a modular synth, maybe I'm better suited than most to understand the potential for sound creation in this monster. Maybe it's because I don't equate the Curtis sound with roadkill. Or maybe I just lack that GS tude that's too common around here, which I can happily do without. In any case, I see a great future for this thing, and maybe it'll sell at Jupiter-80 levels.
Old 18th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1133
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by slippast ➑️
Every day I check this thread hoping for something new (yes, I'm a loser). Every day I'm greeted by novel length posts full of stuff that has nothing to do with much of anything. It's like sexting with a chat bot.
Depressing isn't it!
Old 19th February 2013
  #1134
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🎧 10 years
Describing the P-12 as having the "Curtis sound" is meaningless and just creates confusion. The PA397 combination waveshaper/filter/mixer/VCA in the P-12 has nothing whatsoever to do with the classic CEM3340 VCO, CEM3320 VCF, CEM3310 EG polysynths like the P-5 and OB-8/Xa...
Old 19th February 2013
  #1135
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synthguy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hmm... I scrounged this up on a synth geek board (We Are The Music Makers Forums):

Quote:
According to Dave Smith: "We're using a customised part that Doug Curtis designed a few years back for the Evolver. As you may know, Doug passed away recently, but his company, OnChip Systems, are still manufacturing the chips for us. The part is similar to the one that Tom Oberheim used in his 'Marion' series of synths a few years back, which in turn was a variation of an older CEM part. In my opinion, this filter has a ballsier sound β€” I usually avoid using descriptors like that, but everyone knows what it means β€” than the CEM3320s we used in the later Prophet 5s, the Prophet 10, and the Pro One, and I think that this is noticeable if you compare the Prophet 08 to the older synths."
That would be quite amusing if the Prophet 08 had a "supreme" Curtis sound.
Old 20th February 2013 | Show parent
  #1136
ozy
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy ➑️
I went on to mention epical struggles or something.
man, that's what I call "an enthusiastic endorsement", verging on the "religious experience"

Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy ➑️
If you can't get something musical out of a synth, no one would buy it,
good argument for the korg m1 or the

relatively acceptable for the m50

but the huge popular success of the venom sopmwhoe eludes me.

Well, whatever.

end OT
Old 21st February 2013
  #1137
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🎧 5 years
I really really want one of these! anyone want to buy almost all my gear so i can afford it!?:D
Old 22nd February 2013 | Show parent
  #1138
Deleted 0fc8128
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy ➑️
Hmm... I scrounged this up on a synth geek board (We Are The Music Makers Forums):



That would be quite amusing if the Prophet 08 had a "supreme" Curtis sound.
Ballsier sound?? I thought it sounded pretty thin and had a small sweetspot where it actually sounded nice. The 2 pole resonance is a joke BTW. But then, I am not a big fan of CEM filters to begin with.
Old 22nd February 2013 | Show parent
  #1139
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🎧 10 years
I really like the two pole mode on both the 12 and the 08. On the 08 it thins out the sound nicely almost like a hi pass filter ... very useful.
Old 22nd February 2013 | Show parent
  #1140
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by matia ➑️
I really like the two pole mode on both the 12 and the 08. On the 08 it thins out the sound nicely almost like a hi pass filter ... very useful.
I like two-pole filters in general. I mean, you've got to have four-pole of course: it's like essential. But there's something special about two-pole filters. On my OB-Xa I find myself constantly gravitating towards the 2-pole filter. And I have a Moog MF-101 permanently attached to my P-10 in 2-pole mode. CEM-based synths in particular really benefit from 2-pole filters.

Basically, 2-pole filters rock!
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