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DSI Prophet 12
Old 12th February 2013 | Show parent
  #961
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles chocula ➡️

not that i'm thinking you're referring to me , but because it applies: i pretty much indicated that zahush's demonstrations show the GRP A4 to be a truly worthy synthesizer by stating:
Just for the record - i wrote in the post i sent the link to, that all these demos were made by Theo Bloderer as a part of his review of the GRP.
As i answered rust creep yesterday - i myself never make actuall music with the GRP. I just use it as a toilet paper holder.
Old 12th February 2013 | Show parent
  #962
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zahush76 ➡️
I just use it as a toilet paper holder.


my sincerest apology. i should've looked more closely. i will edit the record to reflect these facts.
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #963
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by slick easy ➡️
Many other synth makers start by showcasing individual components dry (like Ken of Macbeth) before patching everything together to give everyone the best idea of how it sounds.
Actually Ken's demos tend to be mostly musical where he's multiple synths going and they usually have some reverb on them. I find these to be the best sorts of demos because you can hear the synth in use as it would sound in real life.

Listening to a filter sweep will give you some idea of the character but listening to the like of oscillators on their own is completely useless, you never hear them like this is real life so it tells you nothing about what the synth sounds like.

Quote:
Couple this with Dave going into salesman mode and saying things like "3000$ not bad for an analog synth" and "we chose digital oscillators becase anolog ones have stability issues with FM" (that one really made me facepalm)
Doing monophonic FM is one thing, to do polyphonic FM requires rock solid accurate oscillators, all with an identical level of accuracy.

The slight random detuning gives VCOs a highly desirable sound. This also makes them completely useless for FM because the differences get magnified.

Even the Andromeda locked down tight with all the auto tuning options switched on can't do FM properly. Hit one note it sounds fine, hit the same note again and you get a completely different sound.

The curtis chips can't do it. DSI would have to find an alternative supplier of develop their own oscillators. It's debatable if you can even do it in the analogue domain and if you can it's likely to be hideously expensive. You're only going to end up with very locked down DCOs which everyone is going to complain about. You may as well just do it digitally because it gives you the level of control and adding more oscillators is cheap.
Old 13th February 2013
  #964
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Dave never said that the Prophet 12 is the best synth ever; he said it's what he considers his best synth ever, a huge difference in marketing tone.
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #965
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mefistophelees ➡️
Doing monophonic FM is one thing, to do polyphonic FM requires rock solid accurate oscillators, all with an identical level of accuracy.

The slight random detuning gives VCOs a highly desirable sound. This also makes them completely useless for FM because the differences get magnified.

...

You're only going to end up with very locked down DCOs which everyone is going to complain about. You may as well just do it digitally because it gives you the level of control and adding more oscillators is cheap.


All DCOs are rock stable on frequency because they are based on digital interval timers. So I don't see any reason why it's impossible to have stable fm on stable dcos


Also, could you please explain:
1. what problems polyphonic fm is magnifying which are unnoticeable in monophonic - as i don't see any?
2. why fm requires rock stable oscs?
3. do you have any experience with analogue fm?
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #966
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maisonvague's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by redloheb ➡️
3. do you have any experience with analogue fm?
I do. Back in college I worked extensively with a Buchla 200 experimenting mostly with analog FM. There is some truth to the notion that digital oscillators are better suited to precise and controlled FM synthesis -- particularly when its implementation is via phase modulation.

To claim proper FM can't be done with analog oscillators would be, of course, an exaggerated claim -- and personally I prefer analog FM (actually, that's an understatement: I love analog FM). But based on my own experience I can definitely understand the advantages of digital oscillators vs analog in the context of controlled FM synthesis. When you start getting into the real nitty gritty, trust me, you want digital oscillators!

As it stands, I'm happier without the nitty gritty.
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #967
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teceem's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mefistophelees ➡️
Listening to a filter sweep will give you some idea of the character but listening to the like of oscillators on their own is completely useless, you never hear them like this is real life so it tells you nothing about what the synth sounds like.
Do you only use presets? Maybe tweak them a little? Why are you so presumptuous about other people's real life?
Old 13th February 2013
  #968
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mefistophelees ➡️
Actually Ken's demos tend to be mostly musical where he's multiple synths going and they usually have some reverb on them. I find these to be the best sorts of demos because you can hear the synth in use as it would sound in real life.

Listening to a filter sweep will give you some idea of the character but listening to the like of oscillators on their own is completely useless, you never hear them like this is real life so it tells you nothing about what the synth sounds like.



Doing monophonic FM is one thing, to do polyphonic FM requires rock solid accurate oscillators, all with an identical level of accuracy.

The slight random detuning gives VCOs a highly desirable sound. This also makes them completely useless for FM because the differences get magnified.

Even the Andromeda locked down tight with all the auto tuning options switched on can't do FM properly. Hit one note it sounds fine, hit the same note again and you get a completely different sound.

The curtis chips can't do it. DSI would have to find an alternative supplier of develop their own oscillators. It's debatable if you can even do it in the analogue domain and if you can it's likely to be hideously expensive. You're only going to end up with very locked down DCOs which everyone is going to complain about. You may as well just do it digitally because it gives you the level of control and adding more oscillators is cheap.
Ken definately has demos of his stuff just showing off the barebones components. I beleive he did two demos just like that with the micromac. Check his YouTube page.

I completely disagree with hearing synths in context because there is a 99% chance the user will have an entirely different context.

I'm not going into this analog FM debate. Its just too much to write about VCOs, DCOs, autotuning, syncing, whether or not its desirable to have instability in FM because the range of sounds capable with analog FM is so vast its applications are not pigeon holed to the recreation of predictable harmonic musicality.
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #969
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🎧 10 years
Can't we just enjoy this synth for what it is.... I mean it isn't P5 or P VS or T8, but does it matter ....Can't it just exist as P12 ?
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #970
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball ➡️
Does it have external audio input?

Would be a massive shame to waste the filters, distortion and effects for other stuff...
Any ideas?
Old 13th February 2013
  #971
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
No external input, sadly enough.
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #972
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teceem's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asynchro_nous ➡️
No external input, apparently, sadly enough.
http://createdigitalmusic.com/files/...ammday1-04.jpg

Just add a desktop Evolver for that
Old 13th February 2013
  #973
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Ideas for the rack/desktop version:

* Multitimbrality

* External input

* Step sequencing
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #974
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🎧 10 years
Can't we just enjoy this synth for what it is.... I mean it isn't P5 or P VS or T8, but does it matter ....Can't it just exist as P12 ?
Old 13th February 2013
  #975
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asynchro_nous ➡️
Ideas for the rack/desktop version:

* Multitimbrality

* External input
What?!?!?! The p12 isn't multitimbral. No frackin way. 12 voice with individual filter sets for each voice and its not multitimbral. That is horrible! Are you sure you are not mistaken?
Old 13th February 2013
  #976
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Sarcasm?
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #977
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryankraft ➡️
Can't we just enjoy this synth for what it is.... I mean it isn't P5 or P VS or T8, but does it matter ....Can't it just exist as P12 ?
Didn't you just say that?
Old 13th February 2013
  #978
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asynchro_nous ➡️
Sarcasm?
None at all. I thought it was multitimbral.
Old 13th February 2013
  #979
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
It's bi-timbral only, unfortunately.
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #980
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asynchro_nous ➡️
It's bi-timbral only, unfortunately.
Just like P08 , except in dual/ layer mode you can play 6 note poly (p08 4 note).....it's aimed at players as mentioned by Pym. The arp. is 32 step programmable (so far) and i think it's being tweaked further. Maybe DSI are keeping the PE so they didn't want too much overlap.
Old 13th February 2013
  #981
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nectarios's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Way over my budget, but I am drooling non the less...someday...
I am cool with digital oscillators, you can do stuff you can't on analog oscillators and then run that through the analog filters.
Its also cool that there is the P08 available and the Tetra and Mopho x4 for the pure analog sound.

Brilliant choices...my last purchase was the Minitaur...I am thinking about going for the Tetra next...and at some point adding a Mopho x4 for a knobby P08 with sub oscillators.
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #982
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryankraft ➡️
Can't we just enjoy this synth for what it is.... I mean it isn't P5 or P VS or T8, but does it matter ....Can't it just exist as P12 ?
I don't understand. In all the posts here i haven't encountered any reply that compares the P12 to a prophet 5 or a T8, or of someone that was hoping it would be. Would you be kind enough as to quote a post in this thread that expresses this idea?
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #983
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryankraft ➡️
Just like P08 , except in dual/ layer mode you can play 6 note poly (p08 4 note).....it's aimed at players as mentioned by Pym. The arp. is 32 step programmable (so far) and i think it's being tweaked further. Maybe DSI are keeping the PE so they didn't want too much overlap.
I think the 12 looks like a fantastic synth, but I think a lot of us would prefer a rack or desktop version; if the rack has features that the keyboard lacks, everyone wins.
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #984
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zahush76 ➡️
I don't understand. In all the posts here i haven't encountered any reply that compares the P12 to a prophet 5 or a T8, or of someone that was hoping it would be. Would you be kind enough as to quote a post in this thread that expresses this idea?
I was just generalizing....that is all have a good day
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #985
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asynchro_nous ➡️
I think the 12 looks like a fantastic synth, but I think a lot of us would prefer a rack or desktop version; if the rack has features that the keyboard lacks, everyone wins.
True ,we will have to wait and see.... I think a lot depends on whether DSI continue production of PE (regarding step seq.). The P08 desktop/rack was the same as keyboard so maybe same thing regarding the 12 ?
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #986
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synthguy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zahush76 ➡️

No. Not really. A juno can't do some of that.
Sure.



(a-Juno in a box, and thanks to maisonvague for the clue)

Quote:
But nevermind that - if by your definitions these grp demos are "odd blippity sounds" than i really wonder what are your standarts. I mean you don't have to like this synth or anything, but musically speaking - if these demos, in your opinion, belong to the "fart bass and bug noises" category than i wonder what constitues as "music" in your opinion.
Well, then perhaps you can tell me what other kinds of sounds I mentioned would suit a monosynth demo. Marimba trills? Sounds of nature? More cowbell?

Monosynth demos fall into exactly the categories I mentioned, as did your examples. They always do. If you have others, then perhaps you could remove your hand from your face and post them. I also have mentioned a few times the music I like. Perhaps to enlighten, you could do the same...?

Quote:
I made "classic" sounds with the Polyevolver when i had it. But you don't get a polyevolver (or a P12) just for that. If it's classic sounds you seek - than why bother with "girth", "air", "tuned feedback" and other "screechy" stuff?

What kind of sounds do you hope to make with the P12? Classic? "Dancy"? Experimental? If you can focus on what kind of sounds you're looking for, and for what kind of music - than the answer to the question "which synth is for you" will be a whole lot clearer.
I already mentioned - a few times - what I look for in a synth, what I like in a synth, and why the Prophet 12 excites me, so I refer my friend to remarks I made some moments (days) ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mefistophelees ➡️
Listening to a filter sweep will give you some idea of the character but listening to the like of oscillators on their own is completely useless, you never hear them like this is real life so it tells you nothing about what the synth sounds like.
This is very true. I'm unaware of anyone posting raw waves of various synths to illustrate their differences. Most of the character of a synth is in how those waves are filtered, thus we want to hear filtered leads, filtered bass, filtered pads, filter sweeps, etc. I'm baffled as to why so many people around this place have to make things unnecessarily confounded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick easy ➡️
I completely disagree with hearing synths in context because there is a 99% chance the user will have an entirely different context.
Oh sure, like we haven't gone through this countless times in this thread already about bare isolated synth demos. We don't even agree on what constitutes a good synth demo. The only way around that is to provide as many types of demos as one can think of. Like, don't you want to know how a synth works in as many ways of making sound as possible? Including musically? Maybe I'm weird that way, but I sure do.

As for who would be good for showcasing a synth musically and programming wise, I can't think of two bookends more suited than Trent Reznor and Jordan Rudess. Trent may not be the greatest keyboardist evar, but he knows how to get interesting sounds out of a synth, and Jordo, like him or not, can arrange and play stuff most of you guys can't. Add in all kinds of names. Vince Clarke. Thomas Dolby. Tomita. Deadmau5 or whoever, someone who is known for making original sounds, not just twisting knobs live. I know a few people around here are shocked to learn that there are still other styles of music thriving in the music world than EDM and industrial, but they are, and we like hearing synths in those musical contexts too.
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #987
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy ➡️
Sure.



(a-Juno in a box, and thanks to maisonvague for the clue)
First of all - i like all of this guy's demos. He always takes one synth, and makes everything in the track using only one synth (check out what he did with the korg ms-20, and moog voyager rme).
Anyway, the sounds on this demo are of the most "straight forward" and standard kind, and could be done on a number of synths. But an mks-50 can not do most of what you heard on the GRP demos you were reffering to.
The mks-50 has only a 24db lowpass filter - so it can't do all the sounds that use 6db lowpass, 12db lowpass, 18db lowpass, highpass filter, bandpass filter, notch - and naturally all the possible combinations of the GRP's dual filters.
The mks-50 does not have two looping envelopes - thus it can't do those sounds.
The mks-50 does not have a ring modulator - so all kinds of ringmod flavours aren't possible on it.
The mks-50 does not have a full sample & hold circuit, and thus isn't capable of all these sort of modulations,
etc etc etc etc....

Most of what i hear on that (wonderful) demo is the most simple, standard filter sweeps, basses with resonance and eg on the cutoff, and that sort of basic stuff that every analog synth can do. So i fail to see what you thought you were trying to prove.

Quote:
Well, then perhaps you can tell me what other kinds of sounds I mentioned would suit a monosynth demo. Marimba trills? Sounds of nature? More cowbell?

Monosynth demos fall into exactly the categories I mentioned, as did your examples. They always do. If you have others, then perhaps you could remove your hand from your face and post them.
I still don't understand the problem. I listen to these grp demos, and they sounds very musical to me. I hear basses, leads, sequences, filter sweeps, even a demo with a multi tracked grp (did you listen to all of the demos?). Certainly no "odd billipity bug noises". When i think of bug noises, i think of stuff like this:




Quote:
I also have mentioned a few times the music I like. Perhaps to enlighten, you could do the same...?
I like everything that's good. And as it is - every genre has great music and crap music. If you want me to go into detail, than i like to listen to:
classical rock, prog rock, country, funk, underground disco, afrobeat & afrofunk, brazilian music, classical, jazz, hip hop, new wave, punk, electro, techno, psy-trance, house, trip hop, dub, reggae, ska, balkan music, greek, mr. bungle () etc etc. Whatever works. There's crap and gold in each one of these kinds of music.

About what synth might be best for you - you're the only one to decide. But since you mentioned "classic rock", "elp", and the times when "moog arp and obie" were all the rage - i'm not sure the P12 is what you're looking for. That's all i meant. If you want THOSE sounds, you can have all 3 of them for the same amount of money you'd spend on a P12 (if you get a moog\se, boomstar 4075, and a sem pro).


And let's all hold hands and listen to some nice and warm bug noises, odd blippity blips, and screechy heaven, courtesy of dsi:

Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #988
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zahush76 ➡️
First of all - i like all of this guy's demos. He always takes one synth, and makes everything in the track using only one synth (check out what he did with the korg ms-20, and moog voyager rme).
Anyway, the sounds on this demo are of the most "straight forward" kind, and could be done on a number of synths. But an mks-50 can not do most of what you heard on the GRP demos you were reffering to.
The mks-50 has only a 24db lowpass filter - so it can't do all the sounds that use 6db lowpass, 12db lowpass, 18db lowpass, highpass filter, bandpass filter, notch - and naturally all the possible combinations of the GRP's dual filters.
The mks-50 does not have two looping envelopes - thus it can't do those sounds.
The mks-50 does not have a ring modulator - so all kinds of ringmod flavours aren't possible on it.
The mks-50 does not have a full sample & hold circuit, and thus isn't capable of all these sort of modulations,
etc etc etc etc....

Most of what i hear on that (wonderful) demo is the most simple filter sweeps, basses with resonance and eg on the cutoff, and that sort of basic stuff that every analog synth can do. So i fail to see what you thought you were trying to prove.



I still don't understand the problem. I listen to these grp demos, and they sounds very musical to me. I hear basses, leads, sequences, filter sweeps. Certainly no "odd billipity bug noises". When i think of bug noises, i think of stuff like this:





I like everything that's good. And as it is - every genre has great music and crap music. If you want me to go into detail, than i like to listen to:
classical rock, prog rock, country, funk, underground disco, afrobeat & afrofunk, brazilian music, classical, jazz, hip hop, new wave, punk, electro, techno, psy-trance, house, trip hop, dub, reggae, ska, balkan music, greek, mr. bungle () etc etc. Whatever works. There's crap and gold in each one of these kinds of music.

About what synth might be best for you - you're the only one to decide. But since you mentioned "classic rock", "elp", and the times when "moog arp and obie" were all the rage - i'm not sure the P12 is what you're looking for. That's all i meant. If you want THOSE sounds, you can have all 3 of them for the same amount of money you'd spend on a P12 (if you get a moog\se, boomstar 4075, and a sem pro).


And let's all hold hands and listen to some nice and warm bug noises, odd blippity blips, and screechy heaven, courtesy of dsi:

Not my bag that tempest demo but i did like his nail varnish and tat

That buchla demo was 42 seconds of hell ......all for the cost of about $25,000....bargain.

Last edited by ryankraft; 13th February 2013 at 08:00 PM.. Reason: spelling
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #989
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redloheb's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague ➡️
I do. Back in college I worked extensively with a Buchla 200 experimenting mostly with analog FM. There is some truth to the notion that digital oscillators are better suited to precise and controlled FM synthesis -- particularly when its implementation is via phase modulation.
It's just math and science over here

I don't see why 4 dco and vcos shouldn't do FM/PM/etc on par with 4 digital oscillators. Except DCOs wouldn't produce insane amount of alias noticeable on 80ths and 90ths synths. And you can't explain it too.

What I know -- digital FM and particular choice of PM are price-driven solutions. I can step by step explain why - there's no magic for me.

Regardless of how good or bad P12 is -- less BS is better marketing.
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #990
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maisonvague's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by redloheb ➡️
It's just math and science over here
Indeed. And prior to detuning two oscillators and moving on to than what, one meditates on this:



The more I think about it, the less I want to argue because you could be right: using purely digital oscillators instead of ultra stable DCOs could have been motivated by cost (which would not be surprising) -- and to use the excuse of "not being able to do proper FM" or however it was put, is kind of lame. So, let's agree to agree on that point.

I honestly don't know if DCOs can be as rock solid steady as purely digital oscillators (perhaps you do and can enlighten me -- I'm genuinely interested). I only know that when doing carefully controlled complex FM synthesis you want your oscillators to be as solid and predictable as possible in order to avoid unexpected consequences.
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