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Arp Odyssey sample & hold?
Old 15th September 2012
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Arp Odyssey sample & hold?

calling all Arp Odyssey owners, need help!

i recently bought one of these beasts and have been having endless amount of fun making great music. however, i can't seem to get the sample and hold section to do anything.

i'm prepared to believe i may be a twit and overlooking something glaringly obvious, especially to those who know analogue synthesis backwards. i myself am a little ignorant - i tend to tinker randomly until i get a result that sound ace.

i have been playing it all week, having integrated it successfully using my trusty Kenton CV converter and rocking it with my Doepfer Darktime,
but, i have yet to make it sound vaguely arpeggiated without the use of midi or sequencer.

looking at this retro sound demo i should be able to do stuff like this?



i would be most grateful if anyone can help me by showing a full proof patch that would determine whether my sample / hold function is broken or not?
it was recently serviced, so it should be ok!

thanks in advance. any advice gratefully appreciated

Last edited by fattyparts; 15th September 2012 at 12:19 PM.. Reason: vid not working
Old 15th September 2012
  #2
Lives for gear
 
bloodsample's Avatar
S&H Mixer:
Slider 1: 0
Slider 2: Max (Switch to "Noise Gen")
Set trigger to LFO (LFO Trig)
Output lag doesn't matter, set to Min for more obvious result

VCO 1:
Slider 1: 0
Slider 2: Max (Switch to S&H)

Audio Mixer:
VCO 1: Max
The rest doesn't matter.

Make sure the LFO rate is set somewhere in the middle so you can hear the effect more obviously.

Make sure the filter is open and the ADSR envelope set to "organ" (A=0,D=0,S=Max,R=0), etc.


Of course none of these settings are required to get S&H to work, but they will produce the most obvious results (eg random pitch modulation).

Hope that helps.

Update: I realized it probably might help to understand what S&H is doing and how it works so you better understand what these settings are doing. If you already know how it works then ignore this. Sample and hold basically means that some signal (call it "A") is sampled and held whenever some other trigger signal's (call it "T") peak is detected. This sampled signal is held ("freezes") until the next trigger peak.

On the odyssey you have a choice of what is fed as signal "A" and what is used as trigger "T".
The "A" signal can be mixed into the S&H mixer as a choice of either VCO-1's square or saw wave with either VCO-2's square wave or the noise generator.

The trigger signal "T" can either be the LFO or the keyboard gate. If set to keyboard gate, then signal A is sampled whenever you press down a key.

The typical "Random S&H" sound is produced by sending noise as signal A and sampling it at a regular interval. Sampling a random signal (noise) at discrete intervals (LFO) yields a nice discrete random control voltage, which when applied to pitch causes random melodies to be played.

Keep in mind that S&H doesn't have to mean "random". You can for example feed a sawtooth wave at frequency f1 as signal A and trigger sampling with an LFO of frequency f2. If f2 > f1 then you get a rising and falling discrete staircase type of sound. You can test this on the odyssey by setting a high LFO rate, mixing in VCO 1's sawtooth into the S&H mixer, setting VCO-2's FM to 100% S&H, and only putting VCO-2 in the audio mixer. Then disable keyboard tracking for VCO 1 and set play with the tuning manually until you get a desired sound.
Old 15th September 2012
  #3
Lives for gear
 
bloodsample's Avatar
Ok I've just recorded my odyssey with an example of the sawtooth fed S&H for the staircase effect I described in my last post. I start with a slow LFO rate then play around with it. Mid way through I mix in some noise into the S&H. Hopefully this gives you an idea of what I was talking about.
Attached Files

odysseysh.mp3 (1.05 MB, 2496 views)

Old 15th September 2012
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
thanks very much for all your help, very useful info!

i had a vague idea of what sample & hold is, but it was great to hear it broken down so clearly.

i've just tried your settings, but no joy :( looks like it's broken. :(

i will try again tomorrow morning, just to make sure i'm not overlooking something silly.
Old 16th September 2012
  #5
Lives for gear
 
bloodsample's Avatar
Maybe take a picture of the top panel and attach it here? That way we can see if you missed something obvious.
Old 16th September 2012
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
thanks again for being so helpful! i will take photos using your patch tomorrow morning.
Old 16th September 2012
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
i hope you can see these alright? going from left to right.

only sound i'm getting is an intermittent CV click.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]
Old 16th September 2012
  #8
Lives for gear
 
bloodsample's Avatar
Hrm, those settings look good. So you can hear the oscillator keeping a steady pitch while you hold down a key? The pitch doesn't change at all?

I guess another test would be to close the filter down about half way and set the filter modulation to S&H and the slider to Max. Can you hear the filter being modulated randomly?

Also if you turn up the noise source in the audio mixer, can you hear the noise? If you're noise source doesn't work then the S&H won't have random output in this case.

Finally, maybe try the second test I mentioned in my first reply, by feeding a slow sawtooth into the S&H mixer and triggering it with a faster LFO, then have VCO-2's pitch modulated by the S&H and turn up VCO-2 in the mixer. This way you'd be testing two other things: 1) Whether maybe VCO-1 isn't being modulated by the S&H for some reason and 2) Maybe the noise source isn't being fed into the S&H circuit.

At this point it might be better to wait for someone else to reply as it sounds like more of a circuit problem than simple patching problem (and I'm no circuit expert).

Good luck.
Old 16th September 2012
  #9
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
thanks again for your reply and speedy response. i will try these other patches you mentioned.

"So you can hear the oscillator keeping a steady pitch while you hold down a key? The pitch doesn't change at all?"

i get a steady tone until the VCO S&H slider reaches the 80 / 90 to 100 percent mark, then i get a low frequency quiet click. that's using the patch setting you suggested.

after spending a week with the synth, i find everything sings except for when i try using the S&H. osc 1 and 2 both sound fine and noise
and ring modulation is working. it has been recently serviced, so i have contacted the seller and have explained the problem. i think it will need another MOT.

whilst i'm here i would be interested to hear any advice you may have about using the MS20s sample and hold as i noticed you have one on your youtube page. hope you don't mind me picking your brains like this!
Old 16th September 2012
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Make sure the portamento is turned all the way down or you won't hear the effect of the the s&h. Also try it on the filter, push the resonance to self-oscilation for some robo sounds.
Old 16th September 2012
  #11
Gear Addict
 
JEBEQ's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
This Video of one of my Odyssey may help, You can pretty much see what my setting are for the Sample & Hold. Starts at 5:15

Old 16th September 2012 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
bloodsample's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fattyparts ➑️
\
whilst i'm here i would be interested to hear any advice you may have about using the MS20s sample and hold as i noticed you have one on your youtube page. hope you don't mind me picking your brains like this!
It works the same as any other S&H, except there is no built in signal routing, you have to patch in the input and clock signals manually.

To get the typical "random S&H" sound you would patch one of the noise sources into the "IN" of the S&H and patch a square wave LFO (or "modulation generator") into the "CLOCK" intput of the S&H. Then you can route the output wherever you want (oscillator pitch, filter cutoff, etc). Routing it into the "TOTAL" intput allows you to modulate oscillator pitch and cutoff of both filters with different amounts.

IIRC you have to set the waveform of the modulation generator fully clockwise in order for this to work.


Here's a video by automaticgainsay showing off the ms-20 patch panel.

Go to 4:13 where he explains the S&H module and how to get the typical random sound. Note that he says "S&H samples noise sources", well yes it can if you feed it noise, but that's not all it does. In general it samples any signal so you could feed it music from your iPod if you wanted for example. I know I'm nitpicking here but it opened my eyes (and ears) when I realized S&H doesn't necessarily mean "random".
Old 16th September 2012 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEBEQ ➑️
This Video of one of my Odyssey may help, You can pretty much see what my setting are for the Sample & Hold. Starts at 5:15
thanks, i had a quick try with these settings (although i couldn't quite see where the far right toggle switches were set?), but still no joy :(

i didn't get any sound at all, had to pull the S&H audio mixer slider down to bring back a steady tone. something ain't right.
Old 16th September 2012 | Show parent
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by trannycrackhorse ➑️
Make sure the portamento is turned all the way down or you won't hear the effect of the the s&h. Also try it on the filter, push the resonance to self-oscilation for some robo sounds.
portamento was pulled down during my initial tests with Bloodsamples patch.

i will try with the filter later on. ta!
Old 16th September 2012 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodsample ➑️
It works the same as any other S&H, except there is no built in signal routing, you have to patch in the input and clock signals manually.

To get the typical "random S&H" sound you would patch one of the noise sources into the "IN" of the S&H and patch a square wave LFO (or "modulation generator") into the "CLOCK" intput of the S&H. Then you can route the output wherever you want (oscillator pitch, filter cutoff, etc). Routing it into the "TOTAL" intput allows you to modulate oscillator pitch and cutoff of both filters with different amounts.

IIRC you have to set the waveform of the modulation generator fully clockwise in order for this to work.


Here's a video by automaticgainsay showing off the ms-20 patch panel.

Go to 4:13 where he explains the S&H module and how to get the typical random sound. Note that he says "S&H samples noise sources", well yes it can if you feed it noise, but that's not all it does. In general it samples any signal so you could feed it music from your iPod if you wanted for example. I know I'm nitpicking here but it opened my eyes (and ears) when I realized S&H doesn't necessarily mean "random".
this is exactly the kinda schooling i was after, cheers!
Old 18th September 2012
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
The S&H was dead on my Oddy. Exact same symptoms of yours.

Good news was it was a dead FET transistor ($2)

I can check in a few days, and let you know the part so you can buy one and get someone to install it.

(I'd replace the metal can CA3080 IC while your at it to 'shotgun' your repair effort.. They are about $10 on eBay)
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futureman84 ➑️
The S&H was dead on my Oddy. Exact same symptoms of yours.

Good news was it was a dead FET transistor ($2)

I can check in a few days, and let you know the part so you can buy one and get someone to install it.

(I'd replace the metal can CA3080 IC while your at it to 'shotgun' your repair effort.. They are about $10 on eBay)
interesting.

what's this 'metal can' and what do you mean 'shotgun' your repair?

the good news is my Odyssey is still under guarantee as it has only just been serviced. i hope it is something as simple as you suggest.

one other section of the Arp i'm confused about is the last three toggle switches under the ADSR. looking at the manual i should be able to trig the envelope generators with the LFO, but when i try this i get nothing.
Old 18th September 2012
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
ok, it turns out an 'op amp' needed replacing.

if you're based in the UK and need a bit of kit servicing then i highly recommend Synthprof
πŸ“ Reply

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