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D16 Lush - new Diva Competitor?
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #151
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atma's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i actually don't think it's the aliasing that i'm hearing that bothers me (i can't hear anywhere near 20k+), but something about that synth sounds extremely harsh to me.
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #152
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suntsu's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atma ➡️
i actually don't think it's the aliasing that i'm hearing that bothers me (i can't hear anywhere near 20k+), but something about that synth sounds extremely harsh to me.
Yes you are right ! But first of all I make an analysis of the technical aspects even if it's no importance because we are not bat at all ;-) But I think that something that took 3 years of development, that's released in 2012 shouldn't suffer of aliasing problems... Even the Tyrell Nexus 2.0 which is totally free is alias free... There is something wrong with the LuSH-101...
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #153
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atma's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
yeah, i agree; i think the fact that it aliases noticeably just reinforces my subjective experience of it's harsh sound quality, in that something about their programming is perhaps slightly askew. and again, it's a quality in sound that i've found to be common with their other products.
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #154
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atma ➡️
yeah, i agree; i think the fact that it aliases noticeably just reinforces my subjective experience of it's harsh sound quality, in that something about their programming is perhaps slightly askew. and again, it's a quality in sound that i've found to be common with their other products.
I totally agree with you ;-)
Old 26th October 2012
  #155
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🎧 10 years
Can't hear any harshness here....?
The default sawtooth wave is nice and bright, but that's all.
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #156
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by himalaya ➡️
Can't hear any harshness here....?
The default sawtooth wave is nice and bright, but that's all.
Bright ? Are you kidding ? There is nothing bright at all... Listen to the Tyrell Nexus 6 V2 or the DIVA or the SEM V and you'll now what bright means...
Old 26th October 2012
  #157
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Acid Hazard's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Just an FYI, there's been an update released already that gives you the option to hide the keyboard.

We would like to announce that LuSH-101 has been updated
to version 1.0.1

Changes that have been made since last version includes:

- added option to hide GUI keyboard
- bugfix in LFOs and envelopes retrigger mode
(appeared only on few hosts)
- less restrictive demo version (no pop-up window,
30 minutes in one run)
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #158
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atma ➡️
i dunno.. it has a very harsh, crunchy, grainy, digital sound to my ears. haven't done any measurements of aliasing or otherwise. just my impression of it.. it kind of hurts to listen to it.

i wouldn't compare it to diva in the slightest, which has a very smooth, liquid analog sound. Lush is the polar opposite. But again, i've found that quality to some degree in their other plugins as well.
Hurts when you listen to it? Interesting....don't know whether to take such comments seriously or not.

As to Diva....yes it is creamy since each default patch you load has a very complex per-note detuning going on. Whereas, every other synth has the initilaised patch without any modulation whatsoever. That is a very important distinction. Do an experiment. Load any of the template patches in Diva and see what the Trimmers are doing...that's some complex modulation going on right there. Now, reduce the Max Detune parameter to zero and see what sound you get.

I think the 'Trimmers' page in Diva is a master stroke, which gives Diva an immediate 'creamy', lush sound. To do the same in other synths, takes some effort or could be impossible (depends on the synth).
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #159
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by suntsu ➡️
Bright ? Are you kidding ? There is nothing bright at all... Listen to the Tyrell Nexus 6 V2 or the DIVA or the SEM V and you'll now what bright means...
Easy with the patronising tone.
In fact I just had some of the default Diva and Lush patches loaded here. I know what I'm hearing. The volume in Lush needs to be turned up a bit as it is rather low by default. Once that's done, Lush has plenty of highs. Enough for any subtractive work.
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #160
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by himalaya ➡️
Easy with the patronising tone.
In fact I just had some of the default Diva and Lush patches loaded here. I know what I'm hearing. The volume in Lush needs to be turned up a bit as it is rather low by default. Once that's done, Lush has plenty of highs. Enough for any subtractive work.
The only synths that makes me barely forget about my analog gear is the DIVA or the SEM V... As you said, the LuSh does its job done but not much more... There are plenty of other synth able to do much more than the LuSH-101
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #161
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atma's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by himalaya ➡️
Hurts when you listen to it? Interesting....don't know whether to take such comments seriously or not.

As to Diva....yes it is creamy since each default patch you load has a very complex per-note detuning going on. Whereas, every other synth has the initilaised patch without any modulation whatsoever. That is a very important distinction. Do an experiment. Load any of the template patches in Diva and see what the Trimmers are doing...that's some complex modulation going on right there. Now, reduce the Max Detune parameter to zero and see what sound you get.

I think the 'Trimmers' page in Diva is a master stroke, which gives Diva an immediate 'creamy', lush sound. To do the same in other synths, takes some effort or could be impossible (depends on the synth).
that's an interesting observation, but i honestly don't use presets so it's not really an issue—the first thing i do is load a 'blank' template for any synth with all the parameters initialized, i.e., just a basic waveform.
Old 26th October 2012
  #162
Ged
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🎧 10 years
sheesh, all these cool new synths and i'm still using linplug freeAlpha...

my cpu almost died when i fired up Diva - but it did sound really cool
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #163
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atma ➡️
that's an interesting observation, but i honestly don't use presets so it's not really an issue—the first thing i do is load a 'blank' template for any synth with all the parameters initialized, i.e., just a basic waveform.
and I was referring to Templates not presets. Diva Templates serve as initialised shortcuts to specific emulations, so you have got a JP-8, JP-6, Minimoog, etc, template, not presets.

However it is worthwhile to ask what your 'blank' template includes. What does the Trimmers page do? Where is the Max Detune set to in your blank template?
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #164
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by suntsu ➡️
Bright ? Are you kidding ? There is nothing bright at all... Listen to the Tyrell Nexus 6 V2 or the DIVA or the SEM V and you'll now what bright means...
Just coming back to you with this brighness issue... I have Lush set to sawtooth and Diva set to sawtooth with all Roland emulations. Lush sounds much brighter (Diva in Divine mode) than any of the Diva emulations. How you have managed to miss that is beyond me. It's like night and day.

This of course means that both synths model different oscillators from different synths and so there are bound to be differences. Then, how bright a synth appears to be, is never the whole story.
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #165
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Synthpark's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
I find the comments in this thread so lush, so lush ...
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #166
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beany ➡️
I wish the demo was longer than 15 minutes - a 14 or even a 7 day trial would be far better IMHO. Even just 30 minutes! I just start getting somewhere with it and I'm locked out.
The latest demo version lasts 30 min before reload is needed.
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #167
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by suntsu ➡️
There are plenty of other synth able to do much more than the LuSH-101
Sure.
However, lets have a closer look. Lush has all those layers, right? I see that people started complaining that those layers are surplus to requirements and only one will do, which it will for simple SH-101 like sounds.

But it seems that some people forget that with Lush they can simulate sounds which are possible on synths like the Oberheim 4 voice, or Vermona Perforumer 2 since each layer in Lush-101 is a separate synth which allows to have a different filter+wave+envelopes settings. Big deal! I hear you scream...It is! Since like on the mighty Oberheim 4 voice, you can set up a lush pad with each module having very fine variations in the filter and envelope settings therefore creating an extremely organic and creamy sound. Lush can do such sounds - I don't mean to say that it will emulate Oberheim or Vermona or any such hardware synth - not at all - all I am saying is that it can have similar organic quality as each layer can be set to a very fine variation of the previous one. How many of your synths can do that? Tone2's ElectraX can do it and multi-timbral workstations can. But a dedicated VA emulation?
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #168
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crufty's Avatar
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by himalaya ➡️
Sure.
However, lets have a closer look. Lush has all those layers, right? I see that people started complaining that those layers are surplus to requirements and only one will do, which it will for simple SH-101 like sounds.
no complaints here

by chance is there a way to filter sweep all layers?

i must be missing something obvious

automation is impossible right now, w/4 or 5 layers having to go back and re-apply the same curve.


i also wish it had separate rendering/realtime quality modes (or automatically default to best quality when rendering tracks)
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #169
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atma's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i don't think he correctly interpreted your meaning of 'bright' as an indication of it's timbral high-frequency boost. but yes, it IS bright. it may simply be that excessive brightness in the raw oscillators that i find somewhat unpleasant.

re: templates, yes—with diva i just load up the blank templates for whichever synth emulation, so you may be correct about the trimmers and detune settings.
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #170
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atma ➡️

re: templates, yes—with diva i just load up the blank templates for whichever synth emulation, so you may be correct about the trimmers and detune settings.
There you go. So you load up a template with very elaborate modulation per key. Do the test and reduce the 'Max Detune' knob to zero.

I tried to simulate such modulation in Cypher some time ago, and whereas it is entirely possible to have very lush modulation in Cypher which will affect each key press with a different detune setting, the effect is not quite the same as in Diva. In fact, I had to use some of the specific voice modulators together with an LFO to get a similar 'fluid' sound.

So in effect you are not hearing Diva's 'bare bones' sound when you load up one of these templates, but instead you hear its sound with very specific modulation, all ready and preset for you. This has to be remembered when comparisons are drawn between various VA synths, since when you load up an 'init' patch in Lush, you get a bare-bones sawtooth wave in mono.

But the flip side of this is that Diva can indeed sound 'divine' and like nothing else. Urs got it right with the Trimmers page.

The beauty of all these new VA synths is that they actually complement each other. Lush cannot do what Diva can, Diva in turn can not accomplish some of the multi-layered organic pads and other sounds that Lush can. None can sound like Cypher. It all goes around in circles.
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #171
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atma's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
interesting—i honestly haven't even gotten to the point of delving into that facet of diva yet and didn't realize how great an effect it had, but you're probably on to something. one of the big aspects of analog synths is that they vary quite a bit when even repeating the exact same note/patch—when you record arps for example you can always clearly see that the waveform has massive variations in each successive note. diva seems to have this same quality and maybe a lot of that relates to the trimmers/detune.
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #172
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by himalaya ➡️
Sure.
However, lets have a closer look. Lush has all those layers, right? I see that people started complaining that those layers are surplus to requirements and only one will do, which it will for simple SH-101 like sounds.

But it seems that some people forget that with Lush they can simulate sounds which are possible on synths like the Oberheim 4 voice, or Vermona Perforumer 2 since each layer in Lush-101 is a separate synth which allows to have a different filter+wave+envelopes settings. Big deal! I hear you scream...It is! Since like on the mighty Oberheim 4 voice, you can set up a lush pad with each module having very fine variations in the filter and envelope settings therefore creating an extremely organic and creamy sound. Lush can do such sounds - I don't mean to say that it will emulate Oberheim or Vermona or any such hardware synth - not at all - all I am saying is that it can have similar organic quality as each layer can be set to a very fine variation of the previous one. How many of your synths can do that? Tone2's ElectraX can do it and multi-timbral workstations can. But a dedicated VA emulation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by himalaya ➡️
Diva in turn can not accomplish some of the multi-layered organic pads and other sounds that Lush can. None can sound like Cypher. It all goes around in circles.
Layers are useless for me, just launch "x" instance of your favorite synth on "x" tracks and then you get the "x" layers you want...
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #173
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by himalaya ➡️
Sure.
However, lets have a closer look. Lush has all those layers, right? I see that people started complaining that those layers are surplus to requirements and only one will do, which it will for simple SH-101 like sounds.

But it seems that some people forget that with Lush they can simulate sounds which are possible on synths like the Oberheim 4 voice, or Vermona Perforumer 2 since each layer in Lush-101 is a separate synth which allows to have a different filter+wave+envelopes settings. Big deal! I hear you scream...It is! Since like on the mighty Oberheim 4 voice, you can set up a lush pad with each module having very fine variations in the filter and envelope settings therefore creating an extremely organic and creamy sound. Lush can do such sounds - I don't mean to say that it will emulate Oberheim or Vermona or any such hardware synth - not at all - all I am saying is that it can have similar organic quality as each layer can be set to a very fine variation of the previous one. How many of your synths can do that? Tone2's ElectraX can do it and multi-timbral workstations can. But a dedicated VA emulation?
Well, to adress your last point, Xils-Lab Synthix can do that for nearly two years. + You have very sophisticated interaction between the "Per keyboard" arpegiattor, sequencer ( adress layers per line), and the different play modes + the two "Keyboards". Musical interactions.

Its true that multitimbral VA open new possibilities patchwise. On the Synthix a mono layer, like a bass takes around 5% of my antique quadcore 9650 Cpu. Unison patches, especially pads with big release, might be much more demanding, but you can really use these multitimbral possibilities to build huge bass or lead pads, or very sophisticated instruments of all kinds, like a pad + an arpegiatted part on top, etc etc

To a certain extent, Alchemy can also do this, using only the VA engine, though its not a specialised VA. Here again some very complex instruments can be created.

LtZ
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #174
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by suntsu ➡️
Layers are useless for me, just launch "x" instance of your favorite synth on "x" tracks and then you get the "x" layers you want...
Well in some synths, layers can be interactive, so you can do things you CANT do with the several instances technique, wich works however wall for not too sophisticated synthesizers. Not only can they interact, but there are also some global parameters, like play modes, keyboard modes, global LFOs/Glide parameters, Global FX, onboard sequencer interactions.
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #175
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Yoozer's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
edit: nevermind, already answered.
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #176
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Synthpark's Avatar
 
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by LotuZia ➡️
Well in some synths, layers can be interactive, so you can do things you CANT do with the several instances technique, wich works however wall for not too sophisticated synthesizers. Not only can they interact, but there are also some global parameters, like play modes, keyboard modes, global LFOs/Glide parameters, Global FX, onboard sequencer interactions.
Ok, but I don't see any interaction here. It's handy to have the Layering with a button switch, but otherwise not a big deal. You can always route a couple of instances on a bus and do some common processing. There you have your interaction.
Old 27th October 2012
  #177
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🎧 10 years
The difference is however that generally you're not inclined to do so, and if you have to supply patches with info saying "open 4 instances in your DAW, set them to preset w, x, y and z and put them on the same MIDI channel to hear something interesting" you've already lost a good deal of people.

If there is no interaction there is no difference - but the "combi" presets on the Korg workstations always impressed the hell out of people, exactly because they sounded like that out of the box, without the user needing to do something.
Old 27th October 2012
  #178
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🎧 10 years
Spot on Yoozer! Obviously there are different methods of achieving the same results, but it is so elegant to create these irregular type of pads in Lush, much easier and quicker than loading multiple instances of a synth and layering it in a host. The "just launch "x" instance of your favorite synth on "x" tracks and then you get the "x" layers you want..." is a cop out in my view. Since the statement was that other synths can do so much more than Lush, but all of a sudden, it turns out that to do what Lush can do, those synths need the help of a host! A cop out.
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #179
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Synthpark's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
The difference is however that generally you're not inclined to do so
This is true! I just give you my personal experience with Lush so far: tried a mono lead, wasn't too impressed. Then tried three stacked leads with different portamento times. Thought, oh that sounds cool. Then played with it for a while. Started to get annoyed by a digital sheen of the sound and some general dirtyness. Then thought: why do I need this layering? It's just makes things less clear. Came to the conclusion that several mediocre sounds put together will not give me the sound I want. The thing reminds me of the Korg Wavestation plugin. Each element sounds crappy, but the layering has to make it special. Not for me. And: Layering using a DAW has the advantage that you can separate the frequencies much better and mix much cleaner. Because each element can be (and in my opinion must be) EQed. And I was never impressed with any workstation stack sound, like putting different elements together without glue, and not with Omnisphere either. Of course, sometimes it works for the right selection of sounds or lowpass/highpass/bandpass combinations.

By the way, the Korg M1 plugin does that layering, too! And sounds good and costs way less .
Old 27th October 2012
  #180
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark ➡️
This is true! I just give you my personal experience with Lush so far: tried a mono lead, wasn't too impressed. Then tried three stacked leads with different portamento times. Thought, oh that sounds cool. Then played with it for a while. Started to get annoyed by a digital sheen of the sound and some general dirtyness. Then thought: why do I need this layering? It's just makes things less clear. Came to the conclusion that several mediocre sounds put together will not give me the sound I want. The thing reminds me of the Korg Wavestation plugin. Each element sounds crappy, but the layering has to make it special. Not for me. And: Layering using a DAW has the advantage that you can separate the frequencies much better and mix much cleaner. Because each element can be (and in my opinion must be) EQed. And I was never impressed with any workstation stack sound, like putting different elements together without glue, and not with Omnisphere either. Of course, sometimes it works for the right selection of sounds or lowpass/highpass/bandpass combinations.

By the way, the Korg M1 plugin does that layering, too! And sounds good and costs way less .
I m not impressed with lush (except filter resonance) or have to defend it in any way but what sheen are you talking about? Some dirtyness yes (i thought crisp or dirtyness was good...), but both sheen and dirtyness most probably at least for me, describes an aliasing synth (far below 16K) like pro53, korg ms2000 and so on. Maybe it's your converters i can't hear any "digital sheen" at all, so what you even find annoying(!) doesn't make any sense here. I find a supernova, wavestation and many others 10x more "shiny" but i ve never heard anyone complaining, in contrary many like sn for it's metallic timbre and ws for it's glassy pads.

You sound stereotypical and biased against sw, i prefer hw too but not for reasons i make up in my mind. Juno6 (and even six trak) has way more "sheen", but in this case is usually called "lush, smooth whatever" (no pun, the real analog thing) but strangely "digital sheen" is someway always bad.

I don't understand if it sounds dirty and crisp after prossesing in a release it's so good, if it's dirty straight from a sw synth it's so bad??

Or just the same words to desrcibe different things so we 're not in the same page but there always got to be something so annoying in sw emulations right?
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