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What is it that defines analog?
Old 27th September 2012
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atma ➡️
it sounds organic and nuanced with slight instability and unpredictability. the sound seems like it's a physical object that exists in 3dimensional space.
Yes. Ran my new Mopho synth through my Fatso today. Made the software synths not sound so impressive the rest of the day. 3D is indeed why I have a hard time giving up analog.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grovestand ➡️
No it was a quote from the Big Lebowski. I assumed that you hadn't really read the rest of the thread.

So you wouldn't be interested to know if people who have good ears but haven't participated in this debate could hear the difference?

I guess this is how this discussion usually falls apart so I will bow out. Glad I could entertain you.
I'm not interested because I know that people with good ears can hear a difference. I can hear a difference myself. And it's usually not that hard.That is not to say I'm not fooled here and there or forced to guess at times. I'm happy these emulations are good enough to make me go "hmmm" at times. Overall, however, the difference is considerable, and still easily noticeable, in spite of whatever new hype job that hits the market.

Don't take this as me being opposed to science. I'm not. But come on, dude. To ask for a double blind test in this matter is like asking for a double blind test to see if people can really tell the difference between strawberries and raspberries. Because we know they can. And if some people can't tell a difference and therefore question whether anyone can, then those of us who clearly have a preference for strawberries are going to, well, be entertained and quite amazed.

Sorry, did not get the "Lebowski" reference, haven't seen that film for well over a decade, and even if it was mentioned here I tend to skim through these threads for the most part.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #93
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➡️
As for the original question, i still haven't really seen any answers that go much beyond "you can feel it", which to me is about as rational an explanation as saying that the flying spagetti monster gave us analogue synthesis as a divine gift to be revered, praised and cherished by creative persons with to much money in their pockets...
lol are you serious? Of course the jury is out on whether or not you can 'feel it' with an analog synth or not, but 'feeling it' is the most crucial aspect of music, which is an art...not a science. I wouldn't be so quick to discredit the core element that makes us enjoy music, it certainly makes all the difference. Good music is a good music no matter how it is made and should still be good music whether you hear it on expensive monitor speakers or from the speaker of a phone.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth Buddha ➡️
I'm not interested because I know that people with good ears can hear a difference. I can hear a difference myself. And it's usually not that hard.That is not to say I'm not fooled here and there or forced to guess at times. I'm happy these emulations are good enough to make me go "hmmm" at times. Overall, however, the difference is considerable, and still easily noticeable, in spite of whatever new hype job that hits the market.

Don't take this as me being opposed to science. I'm not. But come on, dude. To ask for a double blind test in this matter is like asking for a double blind test to see if people can really tell the difference between strawberries and raspberries. Because we know they can. And if some people can't tell a difference and therefore question whether anyone can, then those of us who clearly have a preference for strawberries are going to, well, be entertained and quite amazed.

Sorry, did not get the "Lebowski" reference, haven't seen that film for well over a decade, and even if it was mentioned here I tend to skim through these threads for the most part.
Nevermind the reference.

You're absolutely right. I can hear the difference now. But when I first started getting more into synthesis (like 6 months ago) I walked into Sam Ash and I said can you dial me up a patch on a digital synth and a patch on an analog synth so I can hear the difference for myself? And the guy looked at me like I had two heads.

I'm sure that people without any knowledge of synthesis can hear the differences, but I doubt that they would be able to put as many words to them as people who spend hours listening to comparisons of the two.

Just like when I first used a preset on a compressor (because some website told me to) I couldn't hear the difference of when it was on or off other than on being "louder." I still get confused when I hear the word "pumping" used to describe compression unless it's sidechained to a kick drum.

It's not a question of whether the difference is audible. It's a matter of what the difference between those tones is to someone who listens to music critically but hasn't been over the arguments of the merits of analog vs. digital before.

An in depth scientific study probably wouldn't spark enough interest to get funding, but I would like to see the results nonetheless.

That said, I get a lot more use out of my Nord Lead 3 then I do out of my Mopho Desktop because of it's accesibility, variety and polyphony. But if I had a Prophet08 or a vintage poly analog, I'm sure that it would be a different story.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainball ➡️
lol are you serious? Of course the jury is out on whether or not you can 'feel it' with an analog synth or not, but 'feeling it' is the most crucial aspect of music, which is an art...not a science.
Still, no rational explanation. People can "feel" anything and everything, without having (or wanting) the slightest rational explanation for whatever it is that they feel.

And the OP's question, which btw is not really about art vs. science, is valid and still unanswered.

"what is it about the sound that makes it analog?"

Now if someone were to say that there tends to be less annoying high frequency content in synth sounds made with analogue circuits, that would at least be some sort of an attempt at a rational explanation.

But "i can feel it" and "it is art, man" does not really answer any questions...
Old 27th September 2012
  #96
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🎧 10 years
Synthesizers attract technologically interested and technologically literate people ; they also attract people more interested in textures, shades, colours of sound. Hence the disagreement brewing here.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth Buddha ➡️
I'm not interested because I know that people with good ears can hear a difference. I can hear a difference myself. And it's usually not that hard.That is not to say I'm not fooled here and there or forced to guess at times. I'm happy these emulations are good enough to make me go "hmmm" at times. Overall, however, the difference is considerable, and still easily noticeable, in spite of whatever new hype job that hits the market.

Don't take this as me being opposed to science. I'm not. But come on, dude. To ask for a double blind test in this matter is like asking for a double blind test to see if people can really tell the difference between strawberries and raspberries. Because we know they can. And if some people can't tell a difference and therefore question whether anyone can, then those of us who clearly have a preference for strawberries are going to, well, be entertained and quite amazed.

Sorry, did not get the "Lebowski" reference, haven't seen that film for well over a decade, and even if it was mentioned here I tend to skim through these threads for the most part.

Please explain to me how an analog synth producing a since wave and a digital synth doing the same is strawberries versus raspberries, two different fruits with completely different tastes, looks and textures ...

At best it is organic strawberries vs. GMOs ...
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diametro ➡️
It's been said before but it bears repeating ...

In a mix — especially a dense one — most discernible difference between digital and analog disappears ...

And producing skills are much more important than any difference in sound quality between the two formats ...

What's most important in creating a song is the feel and flow of the track ... And that is achieved using any manner of tools and methods ... Analog, digital, organic ... There's are worlds of possibility in sound creation ...

A good producer will find what he needs to achieve that ...
+10000000

Finally a bit of common sense in this thread.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grummph ➡️
Not trying to be snide - but (repeats pretty much the exact same points in my post).
Well, how can I disagree?

To clarify my arch-nemesis as a mixer over the years has been that wooly grruncchh or thhhhhhh in the mids/low mids typical of a lot of romplers, VA's, samplers, amp sims or whatnot. It just steps all over everything. We know from a technical standpoint this is caused by beating from aliasing tones folded back into the signal.

It's a similar problem as when a vocal is recorded through a cheap mic in a problematic room so there are a lot of funky resonances in the audio that are practically impossible to remove.

When the freedom to do so presents itself, if it's a basic sound my solution in some cases is to program pretty much the exact same sound on an analog synth and replace it with that. Problem solved.

A lot of good ITB mixers have made bitcrunching/using digital saturation plugins to blur the whole mix into a cohesive sound into a real artform- the result are some great digital sounding mixes, I really like 'em. My skills in that area are more lacking, my aesthetic is clean and punchy, so it's more of a problem for me than for others. It's funny, I remember one of those guys completely mashing a sound with a digital distortion plugin, creating some obnoxious and loud aliasing tones, and then notching them out with EQ... but whatever works I guess. His mixes are good, even though I wouldn't want my mixes to sound like that.

Anyway... TOOOOBZ!!1!!!111!!!. (the !'s are really 0's)
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #100
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➡️
Still, no rational explanation. People can "feel" anything and everything, without having (or wanting) the slightest rational explanation for whatever it is that they feel.

And the OP's question, which btw is not really about art vs. science, is valid and still unanswered.

"what is it about the sound that makes it analog?"

Now if someone were to say that there tends to be less annoying high frequency content in synth sounds made with analogue circuits, that would at least be some sort of an attempt at a rational explanation.

But "i can feel it" and "it is art, man" does not really answer any questions...
The conversation has long changed though, everyone is comparing the two. You cant rationale music, it's as simple as that. It's very valid to say that Analog has something digital doesn't because you can 'feel it'. The difference between an actual guitar and recorded samples demonstrates this quite well, you will never be able to replicate the feeling of a real guitar with samples.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #101
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I have played many, many synths and keyboards in my life. Probably hundreds. And I can say, without question, that my Moog Voyager is the most expressive electronic instrument I have ever owned and played. And I do believe that is in part due to the fact that it is analogue.

Its the sound too, yes, it is, but its the way it responds. I feel like I am in contact with the sound, like I am really making the sound occur in a physical realm. What is referred to as 3D above.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franc ➡️
+1

If anyone needs aural reason - try this:

Tubeway Army - Gary Numan - Are Friends Electric - YouTube

It feels real when you press the key and when you have twiddled the knobs.
Youtube is full of videos of this same Mr. Numan nailing all of his old sounds with Viruses and various other modern synths, and even what appear to be softsynths on a laptop.

D.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainball ➡️
It's very valid to say that Analog has something digital doesn't because you can 'feel it'.
Erm... no.

Quote:
The difference between an actual guitar and recorded samples demonstrates this quite well, you will never be able to replicate the feeling of a real guitar with samples.
Of course not.

Opening and closing electrical circuits to produce an entirely artificial sound generated by complex circuitry has nothing to do with playing an accoustic instrument.
No more than turning on your CD player has.


But surprisingly that same very digital CD player can easily capture the fine nuances of accoustic guitars and give us great listening experiences.

So in the end, digital can do analogue sound.

...and it can even capture the analogue goodness of a few VCO's doing their magic...
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante ➡️
To clarify my arch-nemesis as a mixer over the years has been that wooly grruncchh or thhhhhhh in the mids/low mids typical of a lot of romplers, VA's, samplers, amp sims or whatnot. It just steps all over everything. We know from a technical standpoint this is caused by beating from aliasing tones folded back into the signal.
I don't buy it. Simple as that.

Digital synths have been massively used on records ever since the DX7 came out. Not all of these records "sound digital" or have bad mixes that are stepped on by that aliasing you make out to be the culprit.

In any case, if you can easily reprogram a digital synth sound on an analogue synth it is very likely that the digital synth simply was the wrong choice for the job.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #105
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🎧 5 years
dont feed the gruumph.. he dont gets it anyway.. you will be more succesfull explaining it to your kids
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #106
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➡️
But surprisingly that same very digital CD player can easily capture the fine nuances of accoustic guitars and give us great listening experiences.

So in the end, digital can do analogue sound.
lol no it can't, have you never heard live music? Play acoustic guitar then listen to a CD of acoustic guitar and tell me it sounds the same.

Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainball ➡️
lol no it can't, have you never heard live music? Play acoustic guitar then listen to a CD of acoustic guitar and tell me it sounds the same.

Sounds the same.
Except that the sound comes from speakers, which obviously can't replicate the sound a threedimensional instrument (i.e. that sends soundwaves from all its parts) placed in a room makes.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioconsult ➡️
dont feed the gruumph.. he dont gets it anyway.. you will be more succesfull explaining it to your kids
You really should change your name to audioinsult heh
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioconsult ➡️
dont feed the gruumph.. he dont gets it anyway.. you will be more succesfull explaining it to your kids
Based on the last few posts, I am definitely agreeing with you.

Grrumph, I kinda doubt your livelihood has ever been at stake based on your ability to pick this sh!t apart, am I right?
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #110
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➡️
Sounds the same.
I actually feel sorry for you
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante ➡️
Based on the last few posts, I am definitely agreeing with you.

Grrumph, I kinda doubt your livelihood has ever been at stake based on your ability to pick this sh!t apart, am I right?
No, bull****ting clients has never been my strong side, so the music business really isn't for me.

I mean, sorry, but you blame digital synths for messing up mixes based on their intrinsic digital shortcomings?

The digitalness of the synth is at fault? Really?


...i wonder why all the idiots using digital synths in their music never did notice that in the past 30 years...

Ah! Of course! They didn't have your insight - i guess that explains it...
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainball ➡️
I actually feel sorry for you
Don't.
I live fine with digital recordings of accoustic instruments.
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➡️
No, bull****ting clients has never been my strong side, so the music business really isn't for me.

I mean, sorry, but you blame digital synths for messing up mixes based on their intrinsic digital shortcomings?

The digitalness of the synth is at fault? Really?


...i wonder why all the idiots using digital synths in their music never did notice that in the past 30 years...

Ah! Of course! They didn't have your insight - i guess that explains it...



Nice.

Edit- apologies for contributing to derailing this discussion. Grumphh, I like ya, don't care if you think I'm a bull****ter, or if you don't like what I have to say. Never said you couldn't get a great mix with digital synths. You can.
Old 28th September 2012
  #114
BM0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainball ➡️
lol no it can't, have you never heard live music? Play acoustic guitar then listen to a CD of acoustic guitar and tell me it sounds the same.

Yes, an acoustic guitar live sounds different than one that was recorded through a microphone onto a CD, but that is because the guitar sound had to be recorded through some sort of microphone, with room acoustics to take into consideration. I mean, how else would you get the sound of the guitar onto the recording. Acoustics and microphones are a completely different field than direct electric output when it comes to recording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➡️
Don't.
I live fine with digital recordings of accoustic instruments.
What microphones do you record with?
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #115
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➡️
You really should change your name to audioinsult heh
when you change your name to trollphh.. because thats what you are doing here.. trolling..

recording your flute digitally qualifies for hanging out on an electronic music forum? for what reason except trolling?

There are reasons analog has such a stronghold especially in electronic music production and that is also easy to explain but i wouldnt waste time to explain that to an obvious troll tha has nothing to do with electronic music production and is probably not even a consumer.

do you like electronic music and listen to it by choice on a regular base?
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #116
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Ehhh.... this thread has had it anyway

Say, I got this Motif, but I would like saay a Jupiter 4rrr. It's got lots of analog sounds and acoustics guitars, and lots of other reallistic sounds on it, and no one can tell the difference in a dense mix anyway. It's just 'cause I'm an idiot, I know, but at least I can get a little more cred here on GS with an analog Roland Jupiter. Anyone want to trade? I throw in some loops too to sweeten the deal? They are fruity and tasty and sound like the best of live players.

No, you say? Tsssch, dammit. Back to digitalland, where binary unicorns jump over rainbows made of lucky charms. Ymmuy.
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #117
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM0 ➡️
Yes, an acoustic guitar live sounds different than one that was recorded through a microphone onto a CD, but that is because the guitar sound had to be recorded through some sort of microphone, with room acoustics to take into consideration. I mean, how else would you get the sound of the guitar onto the recording. Acoustics and microphones are a completely different field than direct electric output when it comes to recording.


What microphones do you record with?
A cheapish chinese 1" mono condenser in an untreated bedroom
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #118
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioconsult ➡️
when you change your name to trollphh.. because thats what you are doing here.. trolling..

recording your flute digitally qualifies for hanging out on an electronic music forum? for what reason except trolling?

There are reasons analog has such a stronghold especially in electronic music production and that is also easy to explain but i wouldnt waste time to explain that to an obvious troll tha has nothing to do with electronic music production and is probably not even a consumer.

do you like electronic music and listen to it by choice on a regular base?
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #119
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante ➡️
Say, I got this Motif, but I would like saay a Jupiter 4rrr. It's got lots of analog sounds and acoustics guitars, and lots of other reallistic sounds on it, and no one can tell the difference in a dense mix anyway. It's just 'cause I'm an idiot, I know, but at least I can get a little more cred here on GS with an analog Roland Jupiter. Anyone want to trade? I throw in some loops too to sweeten the deal? They are fruity and tasty and sound like the best of live players.

No, you say? Tsssch, dammit. Back to digitalland, where binary unicorns jump over rainbows made of lucky charms. Ymmuy.
Your flawless argumentation technique has convinced me!

Digital synths are evil and ruin mixes!

...and analogue synths do sound threedimensional!
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #120
ozy
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grovestand ➡️
midi controllers and BCR2000s...basic controls mapped... universal buttons ... chord memory
midi, midi, midi, sysex, midi, midi and again sysex...

I think we are missing a point or two here, as far as performance and interaction is concerned...
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