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Old Akais are sexy - the ultimate Akai thread
Old 21st February 2021 | Show parent
  #1621
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
The S2800, S2800i , S3000, S3000i, CD3000 and S3200 are the same with different options... (same sound as the MPC 3000 too)

The S3000XL is not the same eventhough it as the same look as the S2800...And the S2000 is not the same either AT ALL.
Old 21st February 2021
  #1622
Gear Addict
 
MonoTron's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
The S01 is supposed to be from the same lineage as the S2800 family and not the S2000 or S3000xl.

Does anybody have the S01 service manual? I'm trying to find which other akai S or mpc shares the same input and ad/da converters as the S01. My S01 kicks my mpc2000xl's arse with sampling, especially when sampling hot. It overdrives so nicely <3

Here are some pics of the input of my S01. I'm not too tech savvy, but I found the Mitsubishi chips are amps (opamps?)
Als I'm wondering wath the little Grey box with 3 colored (red black blue) trimpots kinda things is.
Attached Thumbnails
Old Akais are sexy - the ultimate Akai thread-img_20210218_133537.jpg   Old Akais are sexy - the ultimate Akai thread-img_20210218_133504.jpg  
Old 21st February 2021 | Show parent
  #1623
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by djimon ➡️
The S2800, S2800i , S3000, S3000i, CD3000 and S3200 are the same with different options... (same sound as the MPC 3000 too)

The S3000XL is not the same eventhough it as the same look as the S2800...And the S2000 is not the same either AT ALL.
The S2000 uses a S3000XL motherboard minus the internal SCSI connector, and basically is a S3000XL without the options and the large display. The options you can add. The small display somehow makes it universally shunned, meaning you can pick them up for peanuts...
Old 21st February 2021 | Show parent
  #1624
Gear Nut
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfgh ➡️
The S2000 uses a S3000XL motherboard minus the internal SCSI connector, and basically is a S3000XL without the options and the large display. The options you can add. The small display somehow makes it universally shunned, meaning you can pick them up for peanuts...
I'm seeing every sampler advertised at way bigger prices in just the past year, even the non-hyped ones like the S2000. But looking at sold listings here, the most recent S2000 sold for $175. Right under the S950 that went for $1700, and it's a 100v model requiring a step down transformer from 240v. Even an MPC Renaissance sold for $1100! Who's buying that?
Old 21st February 2021 | Show parent
  #1625
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfgh ➡️
The S2000 uses a S3000XL motherboard minus the internal SCSI connector, and basically is a S3000XL without the options and the large display. The options you can add. The small display somehow makes it universally shunned, meaning you can pick them up for peanuts...
Yeah maybe....I was just highlighting the 2800/3000/3200 product line and the fact that the 3000XL and the 2000 are not part of it.

But thanks for the complement of info

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afferbeck ➡️
Who's buying that?
Not me

Maybe the rich CEOs of the GAFAM are turning into a vintage boom bap beatmaker crew
Old 21st February 2021 | Show parent
  #1626
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afferbeck ➡️
I'm seeing every sampler advertised at way bigger prices in just the past year, even the non-hyped ones like the S2000. But looking at sold listings here, the most recent S2000 sold for $175. Right under the S950 that went for $1700, and it's a 100v model requiring a step down transformer from 240v. Even an MPC Renaissance sold for $1100! Who's buying that?
okay, once could pick them up for peanuts...

I still regret not buying the optional filter and effects boards before the prices went nuts. They could be had for as little as 50 bucks each, now they sell for more than twice what I paid for my S2000 with multiple output board and almost maxed RAM...
Old 21st February 2021 | Show parent
  #1627
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afferbeck ➡️
Right under the S950 that went for $1700, and it's a 100v model requiring a step down transformer from 240v.
I've got to believe that a big part of the s950 price growth is hype, movement valuation and speculation. I had my 950 up for sale for a couple of months at $600 with lotherek floppy emulator, but it is was missing the rack ears, and the output jack board has been replaced with hard wired case mounted jacks (which is an improvement really). Also a spare ready to install LED display. I had Zero serious interest, but a lot of low ballers looking to flip it. If someone won't pay half the going rate for a non mint, but fully functional user machine, I don't see the sale prices reflecting actually user value.
Old 24th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1628
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
My AKAI S1100 fully expanded still alive and kicking in 2021! One month ago i find super rare 16 voices expander for 32 voices polyphony and also 2x RAM!!! Does anybody had any experience with this expander?
Attached Thumbnails
Old Akais are sexy - the ultimate Akai thread-akai-s1100-sampler-expander-best-jungle-sampler.jpg  
Old 24th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1629
Lives for gear
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by artech909 ➡️
My AKAI S1100 fully expanded still alive and kicking in 2021! One month ago i find super rare 16 voices expander for 32 voices polyphony and also 2x RAM!!! Does anybody had any experience with this expander?
Now thats impressive.
Old 24th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1630
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sense_A ➡️
The Akai S1000 and S1100 <snip> have excellent and perhaps some of the best pitch shifting / interpolation algorithms available in samplers..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sense_A ➡️
I don't know why people overrate the S950 so much.
You think the S1000/1100 has nice interpolation - the variable sample rate playback on the S950 eats interpolation for breakfast!

The sound of the input stage, the speed of use + the variable sample rate pitch transposition make it my fav of all time. It's a dream with SCSI2SD installed. Mine will need to be prized out of my cold dead hands.
Old 24th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1631
BHW
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutjob ➡️
You think the S1000/1100 has nice interpolation - the variable sample rate playback on the S950 eats interpolation for breakfast!

The sound of the input stage, the speed of use + the variable sample rate pitch transposition make it my fav of all time. It's a dream with SCSI2SD installed. Mine will need to be prized out of my cold dead hands.
the s 1000 and s 1100 has the same interpolation like the s 950.
Old 24th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1632
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by artech909 ➡️
My AKAI S1100 fully expanded still alive and kicking in 2021! One month ago i find super rare 16 voices expander for 32 voices polyphony and also 2x RAM!!! Does anybody had any experience with this expander?
fantastic! the Akai Expander system over SCSI really works great. nice idea with the inverted screen when you're in dual mode.

sold mine last year tho, back when they were going for EUR 100. for me, made more sense to have two S1100s, or a S1100 and s900/950.

Last edited by millionmiles; 24th February 2021 at 12:38 PM..
Old 24th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1633
Moderator
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegreengold ➡️
I've got to believe that a big part of the s950 price growth is hype, movement valuation and speculation.
I hate being "that guy", in fact I am a very skeptic type of person, even if you look at my back posts and how many times I have argued with living_sounds about "post S1100 Akais" sounding the same (IMO) but I have to admit one thing. The sound of S950 is something else! It is not the hype, believe me. I have the unit right here. That filter is absolute magic. It has a mild but permanent resonance on, sounds stellar.

And once you open it up it all makes sense. You can literally see 8 individual little synthesizers inside with analog circuitry, analogue filters and VCAs. If you ever opened an analog synthesizer you will immediately recognize what I talk about. On top of all that, it has a very rare playback method that is used only by a handful of samplers and no other (be it software or hardware sampler). It's a very small club made of E II, P2000, DSS-1, Synclavier, Fairlight and the S950 - which are only samplers that use variable clock transposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BHW ➡️
the s 1000 and s 1100 has the same interpolation like the s 950.
The S950 does not have interpolation. It does not need it. In order to change the pitch, it changes its clock rate.
Old 24th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1634
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris ➡️
I hate being "that guy", in fact I am a very skeptic type of person, even if you look at my back posts and how many times I have argued with living_sounds about "post S1100 Akais" sounding the same (IMO) but I have to admit one thing. The sound of S950 is something else!
This is true, it does has a special sound. But if an s950 with improved output jacks (the originals have brittle plastic casings that are just waiting to break with regular use), but no rack years can't sell at half the "market price", but attracts a lot of interest from people who admit to having multiple s950s and flipping then, then I suspect there is something going on with the pricing beyond value for the sound. It means the hype around the reality has become mythic marketing.

I still have it, but the S700 and S1000 get a lot more use. (and we needn't talk any more about the s612 which along with the s700 also have variable clock rate transposition, the s612 also has a similar filter, but with proper knob for it on the front).
Old 24th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1635
Lives for gear
 
lovekrafty's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
In my eyes I think the S950 was more of a sleeper sampler to start with.
A few years ago you could get one for peanuts the same could not be
Said for the Emax which is kind of it’s equivalent.

True the prices have shot up for the S950, probably partly due to
Other vintage samplers with analog filter becoming too expensive

Plus the edition of HXC usb drives and such makes it much more practical than
The original floppy drive.

And there are a lot of Akai libraries still available in HXC format.
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1636
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutjob ➡️
You think the S1000/1100 has nice interpolation - the variable sample rate playback on the S950 eats interpolation for breakfast!

The sound of the input stage, the speed of use + the variable sample rate pitch transposition make it my fav of all time. It's a dream with SCSI2SD installed. Mine will need to be prized out of my cold dead hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris ➡️
On top of all that, it has a very rare playback method that is used only by a handful of samplers and no other (be it software or hardware sampler). It's a very small club made of E II, P2000, DSS-1, Synclavier, Fairlight and the S950 - which are only samplers that use variable clock transposition.

The S950 does not have interpolation. It does not need it. In order to change the pitch, it changes its clock rate.
So whereas most samplers operate at a fixed sample rate and change the playback pitch of a sample by interpolating the waveform data (although I don't fully understand this term, I do get the general concept), the Akai S950 changes the pitch of a sample by playing it back at a variable rate. So this is why when pitching down samples in my S950 they obtain a more lo-fi sound and lose more 'top end' than on the S1100 and other samplers that I have compared it to?
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1637
Lives for gear
 
acreil's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoTron ➡️
The S01 is supposed to be from the same lineage as the S2800 family and not the S2000 or S3000xl.
I think both the S01 and S20 are based around general purpose DSPs (DSP56002), nothing like the other samplers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dialectic ➡️
So whereas most samplers operate at a fixed sample rate and change the playback pitch of a sample by interpolating the waveform data (although I don't fully understand this term, I do get the general concept), the Akai S950 changes the pitch of a sample by playing it back at a variable rate. So this is why when pitching down samples in my S950 they obtain a more lo-fi sound and lose more 'top end' than on the S1100 and other samplers that I have compared it to?
Interpolation is basically a low quality sample rate conversion. If the sampler is operating at 48 kHz and the sample is recorded at some arbitrary sample rate and transposed to whatever pitch, the individual data points of the sample don't line up with the output samples. So interpolation is used to generate the intermediate points. Generally this is done by taking a few points of the waveform data, constructing a polynomial that passes through the points, then using the polynomial value at whatever fractional point as the output. This is easier than it sounds, since you can directly evaluate the output at whatever fractional address from the fractional component and the waveform data points. Mathematically speaking, the spectrum of sampled data is periodic. The data exists as an amplitude modulated impulse train and the corresponding spectrum repeats to infinity. From a frequency domain perspective, the role of interpolation is to attenuate the high frequency copies (images) of the desired baseband spectrum. Different types of interpolation accomplish this with varying degrees of success, which is why the Ensoniq Mirage and Emu SP-1200 sound dirty as hell and the Roland S-770 sounds clean but dull if you transpose down. Along with the sample rate and the specific sample data, this generally affects the sound a lot more than the DAC or whether it's 8 bits or 16 bits of whatever.

The variable rate sampler thing is sort of misleading, because the important part is really the frequency synthesis, or how the playback sample rate is derived. It doesn't ultimately matter if the sample rate is fixed or variable, because the effective sample rate is really the master clock frequency from which the variable frequency clock is derived, rather than the variable clock frequency itself. From this perspective, the DAC's zero-order hold is equivalent to truncation (trivial interpolation). The Akai S612 through S950 use divide-by-n frequency synthesis, which has limited pitch resolution but is completely free of aliasing. But they've also got pitch tracking reconstruction filters to attenuate the high frequency images. The S1000/1100 has a 48 kHz sample rate and fairly good (for its time) interpolation. They're not really comparable at all. The S2000/S3000 models use linear interpolation.
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1638
Gear Addict
 
MonoTron's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by acreil ➡️
Interpolation...
Great info! Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by acreil ➡️
I think both the S01 and S20 are based around general purpose DSPs (DSP56002), nothing like the other samplers.
Indeed there's a Motorola DSP56001FE2T chip inside (middle left on picture).
So the rest of the S3000 non xl family doesn't have this chip?

The S20 was made a few years after the S01 and does offer multiple sample rates if i remember correctly.
Attached Thumbnails
Old Akais are sexy - the ultimate Akai thread-img_20210215_201126_copy.jpg  
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1639
Moderator
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
DSP and IC's...

This is not a critic towards anyone in particular, but I think this chip "in depth" analysis thing has gone a bit too far and thanks to forums and speculations definitely out of proportion with people believing whatever they want to. All of these Akais past S1100 run essentially the same software, they all have linear interpolation while the converters are as transparent as possible. When Akai S3000 came out, this is why everyone lusted after, it was the most transparent converter on the market back then. And now suddenly you have these clueless yahoos who claim "warmth" and "magic" out of MPC3000. Sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

There are actually some well made tests comparing MPC3000 vs latest MPC Touch. Difference? None. Everything past S1100 is fully transparent. S3000 vs S3000XL debates are completely ridiculous. They run the same software and run the same interpolation. Only difference are their effects processors as EB16 is different to stock S3000 effects. But their raw sound is the same, and sounds just like MPC3000, MPC4000 etc. Surprise...surprise. Not sure how an audio that is already CD quality (44kHz, 16bit) with linear transposition is supposed to sound any "different" because of different digital ICs.
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1640
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I love the fact that you are on this forum, acreil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris ➡️
This is not a critic towards anyone in particular, but I think this chip "in depth" analysis thing has gone a bit too far and thanks to forums and speculations definitely out of proportion with people believing whatever they want to. All of these Akais past S1100 run essentially the same software, they all have linear interpolation while the converters are as transparent as possible. When Akai S3000 came out, this is why everyone lusted after, it was the most transparent converter on the market back then. And now suddenly you have these clueless yahoos claim "warmth" and "magic" out of MPC3000. Sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

There are actually some well made tests comparing MPC3000 vs latest MPC Touch. Difference? None. Everything past S1100 is fully transparent. S3000 vs S3000XL debates are completely ridiculous. They run the same software and run the same interpolation. Only difference are their effects processors as EB16 is different to stock S3000 effects. But their raw sound is the same, and sounds just like MPC3000, MPC4000 etc. Surprise...surprise. Not sure how an audio that is already CD quality (44kHz, 16bit) with linear transposition is supposed to sound any "different" because of different digital ICs.
Ridiculous to you. Cool. But an MPC4000 does not sound like an MPC3000, sorry. Just doesn't. And I remember when the 3000/3200's came out, and the studio I worked in got some. Had been using an 1100 and a 1000 daily in there for years and then the 3000s came and at first it was wow, yeah. But within a couple of mixes it was like '****, these need more yanking in the pocket by cutting than the 1000/1100 and fight back more' and I forever preferred the older ones. So yeah. Different people lust differently. And 'CD quality'? What does that even mean?
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1641
Moderator
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 ➡️
Ridiculous to you. Cool. But an MPC4000 does not sound like an MPC3000, sorry. Just doesn't.
Ok. Fair enough! They don't sound the same. Here we have the following in the audio test: AKAI MPC4000, MPC3000 and MPC Live. Can you identify at which point (timestamp) the audio gets switched between the mentioned devices:

Test2.wav

Test4.wav

Notice I am not asking to identify any of the mentioned devices. Instead this is a super easy test given the "different" sound of the Akai's past the S1100 line. Of course an easy test comes as a double edged sword, because in the case of a failure, things get pretty unpleasant for the participant. So allow me to make it easier for you:

-- You can't tell where the audio has been cut.

Sure, you can cheat, zoom in, do spectral analysis, etc. But by listening to the audio, you can't tell. And that's my point! Everything past S1100 sounds the same on Akai (minus the difference in effects processors). There is no "magic" in a linear interpolation and a 16-bit CD quality DAC. Acreil can explain that much better than I ever could.

Attached Files

test2.wav (793.0 KB, 658 views)

test4.wav (1.81 MB, 670 views)

Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1642
Gear Nut
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by acreil ➡️
I think both the S01 and S20 are based around general purpose DSPs (DSP56002), nothing like the other samplers.
interesting.


in all seriousness, your explanation was very clear to me and quite interesting.
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1643
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris ➡️
Ok. Fair enough! They don't sound the same. Here we have the following in the audio test: AKAI MPC4000, MPC3000 and MPC Live. Can you identify at which point (timestamp) the audio gets switched between the mentioned devices:

Test2.wav

Test4.wav

Notice I am not asking to identify any of the mentioned devices. Instead this is a super easy test given the "different" sound of the Akai's past the S1100 line. Of course an easy test comes as a double edged sword, because in the case of a failure, things get pretty unpleasant for the participant. So allow me to make it easier for you:

-- You can't tell where the audio has been cut.

Sure, you can cheat, zoom in, do spectral analysis, etc. But by listening to the audio, you can't tell. And that my point. Everything past S1100 sounds the same on Akai (minus the difference in effects processors).

That's a bull**** test. What matters is what you notice when working with it. And you know that. In a 'can you tell the difference in the final outcome' sort of 'test' all manner of shlt disappears that is very real when working with different tools. But like I say, you of all people already know that. ;-)
Old 25th February 2021
  #1644
Lives for gear
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Subtilties, what does it really mean in a practical form?

An important thing that one might forget and that is happening a lot in the audio world is that audio processing usually doesn't imply a single track but the stacking of , in some occasion, a lot of tracks.

The difference, nowadays, between a prosumer grade AD/DA and a professional grade AD/DA can be extremely marginal. In fact, a lot more marginal then the S3000/MPC3000 vs the MPC4000 can be.

While it might not seem obvious at first, when stacking devices (with their own audio properties) the difference become quite apparent for a trained ear.

I'm not dismissing the mod blind test as its a very popular rhetoric and I believe its a great way to train someone to ear the differences and understand the differences, as small as they can be....and the price tag and benefits that comes with it.

In my opinion, it all comes down to preferences.

Some will prefer to use an emulation ITB because ''it sound the same'' to them plus its a lot easier to use.

Some others prefer to use the hardware because theres a texture to it even though its a lot more complicated to use then dropping a plugin on a track and a lot more time consuming.

Who's right and who's wrong? Neither of them. Its really just preferences.

But believing that there's no differences because you cant make the difference in a blind test is really just a popular rhetoric without scientific approach.

One's understanding of the benefit of subtilty cannot be dismissed by another's generic approach to the lack of huge improvement.

That is just not how art work and thanks to those subtilty, we end up with improvement and ingenuity in what other see as static and useless improvement since art exist.

EDIT:

Here's a funny video I found a few weeks back that demonstrate what subtilty can mean in an ridiculously extreme case but that should be enough to put the case of blind listening to rest.



I'm pretty sure most if not all of us didn't hear quite a significant difference at first but by the end it got resampled 500 times, I think it became quite obvious.

This, folks, is what subtilty in a practical form mean in the art world.
After that, you got a range of very picky schmuck that will bring their unique set of skills to compose, mix , master and critic your audio piece.

Last edited by Martel80; 25th February 2021 at 02:05 PM..
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1645
Gear Addict
 
MonoTron's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris ➡️
This is not a critic towards anyone in particular, but I think this chip "in depth" analysis thing has gone a bit too far ...

Not sure how an audio that is already CD quality (44kHz, 16bit) with linear transposition is supposed to sound any "different" because of different digital ICs.
Let me chip in as i'm the one who posted a pic of the S01 chips

I'm genuinly interested in differences in sound, that i am experiencing with my own gear.

My S01 just sounds very good, better than my MPC2000xl when sampling hot and I was curious why that is. So I was researching this a bit and also trying to fix the floppy drive so i made some pictures and uploaded it because other people might be interested.

I've had quite a few Akai's in the past, the S2000 and S5000 have gone years ago. The S01, MPC2000xl, 2500 and 500 are still here. The XL doesn't sound the same as the 500 and 2500 to my ears. The S01 has a very punchy sound, great on drum sounds & breakbeats. Love it! Don't know if its the ADC or DAC or transposition software/hardware or the chip or my ears. Don't know but a nice topic to read about and research a bit
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1646
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoTron ➡️
Let me chip in as i'm the one who posted a pic of the S01 chips

I'm genuinly interested in differences in sound, that i am experiencing with my own gear.

My S01 just sounds very good, better than my MPC2000xl when sampling hot and I was curious why that is. So I was researching this a bit and also trying to fix the floppy drive so i made some pictures and uploaded it because other people might be interested.

I've had quite a few Akai's in the past, the S2000 and S5000 have gone years ago. The S01, MPC2000xl, 2500 and 500 are still here. The XL doesn't sound the same as the 500 and 2500 to my ears. The S01 has a very punchy sound, great on drum sounds & breakbeats. Love it! Don't know if its the ADC or DAC or transposition software/hardware or the chip or my ears. Don't know but a nice topic to read about and research a bit
The funny thing is they can sound different but all sound like Akai ive found.I did like the S01 when i heard drums through my friends.Really dry and present.Not much editing tho.....
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1647
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs ➡️
The funny thing is they can sound different but all sound like Akai ive found.I did like the S01 when i heard drums through my friends.Really dry and present.Not much editing tho.....
Edit-if the live/X/One sounded like the S01 But with all the editing I’d be all over it I reckon.
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1648
Gear Addict
 
MonoTron's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs ➡️
The funny thing is they can sound different but all sound like Akai ive found.I did like the S01 when i heard drums through my friends.Really dry and present.Not much editing tho.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs ➡️
Edit-if the live/X/One sounded like the S01 But with all the editing I’d be all over it I reckon.
Yeah editing options are completely non-existent on the S01, but just sample edited and ready to go drumloops or hits for a nice punchy sound.

Akai's do sound like Akai's and nothing like my Yamaha samplers
Old 25th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1649
Lives for gear
 
acreil's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoTron ➡️
Indeed there's a Motorola DSP56001FE2T chip inside (middle left on picture).
So the rest of the S3000 non xl family doesn't have this chip?
The DSP56001 was used in the S1100 as an effect processor, but nothing else used it for sample playback. The ADC in the S01 is the Sanyo LC7886 and the DAC is the µPD6376. I don't have a schematic, but the whole thing seems much more cheaply designed than Akai's usual stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris ➡️
Sure, you can cheat, zoom in, do spectral analysis, etc. But by listening to the audio, you can't tell. And that's my point! Everything past S1100 sounds the same on Akai (minus the difference in effects processors). There is no "magic" in a linear interpolation and a 16-bit CD quality DAC. Acreil can explain that much better than I ever could.
I think the overall point is that while there are certainly different, distinct hardware families, the MPC2000, MPC3000, S2000, S2800, S3000, S3200, etc. all share the same basic design, and getting into the minutiae of their differences (beyond their filters, effects, sequencer, user interface and price) isn't really productive.

This is not to say that all Akais are the same across the board; the MPC60, S1000, S900 and S01 are all very different designs, so it's no surprise that they'd sound different. But between the models based on the L7A1045 L6028 DSP-A chip, the differences are mostly very minor. I can't say that the S5000, Z8, or whatever later stuff would be necessarily equivalent, but it's pretty fair to assume that they're not doing anything drastic to the sound either.

It's totally conceivable that certain models might have different input distortion characteristics. And that's important when a major tenet of sampling is that worse is better. But those aren't things that can be easily analyzed from comparing schematics; at most you'd just get an idea that two models might perform differently. It's not even simple to directly compare two hardware units side by side, since you'd have to exactly match gains, etc. I'd say overall the sample playback, converters, etc. are nothing special, and it's basically trivial to do the same thing in software (barring the specifics of the filters, reverb, envelopes, etc.). I'd just sample through overdriven mixer channels, maybe a crappy digital delay, and EQ, resample, etc. to taste. That's a lot more flexible than buying one sampler "for color", especially when the sampler isn't really doing a lot to the signal anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 ➡️
An important thing that one might forget and that is happening a lot in the audio world is that audio processing usually doesn't imply a single track but the stacking of , in some occasion, a lot of tracks.

Here's a funny video I found a few weeks back that demonstrate what subtilty can mean in an ridiculously extreme case but that should be enough to put the case of blind listening to rest.
The basic fallacy here is that layering a bunch of things isn't the same as repeatedly re-recording tracks through an analog signal path. A 1 dB drop at 16 kHz is important when you're recording in a multitrack studio, where you're repeatedly mixing, bouncing tracks, etc. through the same mixing console and tape machine. But if you're multitracking or layering sounds from one sampler, the same 1 dB drop at 16 kHz doesn't accumulate. Also it's rather stupid that the video attributes the cumulative degradation to the converter rather than the transfer function of the analog signal path (coupling capacitors, etc.).

Last edited by acreil; 26th February 2021 at 02:41 AM..
Old 26th February 2021 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acreil ➡️

The basic fallacy here is that layering a bunch of things isn't the same as repeatedly re-recording tracks through an analog signal path. A 1 dB drop at 16 kHz is important when you're recording in a multitrack studio, where you're repeatedly mixing, bouncing tracks, etc. through the same mixing console and tape machine. But if you're multitracking or layering sounds from one sampler, the same 1 dB drop at 16 kHz doesn't accumulate. Also it's rather stupid that the video attributes the cumulative degradation to the converter rather than the transfer function of the analog signal path (coupling capacitors, etc.).
That is also a very interesting observation you made there.

I couldn't disagree more and have total opposite observation and experiences.

Edit:
-A piano line with 1db cut at 2khz
-8 track level matched with the 1 db cut at 2khz
-16 track level matched with the 1 db cut at 2khz
-8 track bus to 16 track bus inverted all with the 1 db cut at 2khz

Download the track and listen to the inverted signal.

They were both level matched using letitmix GainMatch to make sure there was not a 0.01db of difference before inverting the signal
Attached Files

8.wav (3.82 MB, 481 views)

8-16 Inverted.wav (3.82 MB, 483 views)

16.wav (3.82 MB, 505 views)

Original.wav (3.82 MB, 494 views)


Last edited by Martel80; 26th February 2021 at 12:48 AM..
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