Actually that's kind of how it does work. If you're an awesome synth programmer, have good documentation skills, are good at debugging, and are good at performing timely and thorough testing, they do give you a synth. Typically it's part of the beta test program, but at the end of the day you keep the synth in exchange for all the hard work you put into it.

On another note, I'm sure you thought of this all the way through and factored in the additional time and cost, but in case you haven't, here's the probable sequence:

buy the MiniMoog, get it home, compare it to the Voyager directly through your mixing board and monitors.

love the Mini more than the Voyager, return the Voyager.

Now you start working on your next track. You want to use the Mini. No MIDI yet, options are to play it live and record it or sample notes and play them back via MIDI.

Take a break, buy a MIDI/cv box, hook it up. Now you can play the Mini from another MIDI keyboard or sequencer and still tweak the front panel in realtime. Most (all?) MIDI retrofits don't offer complete control over the Mini panel controls.

You lay down a Mini track and start adding other instruments and realize that the Mini isn't in tune. You try adjusting the tuning, and that works for a small range, but the scaling is off. Not being a tech, you need to ship the Mini off to get cleaned and calibrated.

Mini is back after a couple weeks/months and now you can restart work on your track.

So you record your track and on playback notice that the Mini doesn't sound as big as it does when you're just playing it. Time to upgrade your mixing board, monitors, EQ and A/D converters. It never really ends.

This has happened time and again over the years and across many on-line BBS's and web forums.

You won't be the first (or last) person to finally acquire the Holy Grail and realize that it's still not enough. That's what the other posters have been trying to tell you in various ways.

Go buy the Mini and enjoy the journey it will take you on, just be prepared for all the detours along the way.

Sorry to break the news to you, but all the videos you attached are of Voyagers. The 2nd Video labelled Minimoog is a Voyager old school, not a Minimoog D. So you are comparing a voyager with a voyager...

Haha, ftw! I guess you have to write MACH4 on that now heh I think you're doing an admireable job of keeping cool, mate.

I'm sure that one reason you're so on the fence, and want confirmation that you ears + youtube is not cheating you, is that you do not take it lightly to throw that amount of cash on an old synth. Thus, I don't consider you spoiled, only indecisive, you want to move forward in confidence that you don't have to compensate to get what you desire from a sound point-of-view. It is simply a matter of forgetting the gear, is it not, to be able to work in mental peace, and to be sure any flaws come from you, the inexperienced programmer? This I consider a humble/perfectionist attitude, albeit also a bit indecisive, so I think you are misunderstood by some.

That said, if you are not already programming away on your Voyager (and I have no idea if you are, just saying) while you have it by your side, I also can't help think that you may be looking for a shortcut to something you probably won't find by moving to the Mini. At times, I personally did find those magic bullets though, but in more drastic moves than smth. like Voy vs Mini, but it worked in eg. going from VST -> analog (seemingly any analog, lol).

If you are already programming away, I'd say at this point, like others, sorry for repeating, but: play the real Mini, somehow, and know beforehand how to program basic sounds you need. Know how to achieve something simple, if you are not getting it at expected setting, eg. more bass with the filter, or more bite with resonance. Even the simplest monos can be coaxed to sounds you wouldn't expect at first tweak, or at first preset. Know what you're doing and try the synth, it's the only way.
Although, I think that getting good reliable A/B material may also be a relatively decent way of doing the same thing, and that's curiously also what the thread was about.

Hehe, nice one.

This one illustrates to me that the difference between the Mini and the Voy are small, soundwise. Classic Mini stuff, I'd never have doubted for a sec. it was a Mini, if anyone had said so.

appreciate the post. Ironically, I am NOT looking for the Holy Grail. One could say that I have it already in the Voyager. so much of current popular music (not pop, but a lot of electronica and crossover stuff like David Guetta) uses one.

and that's the conundrum. You see, I am in love with the Mini's sound, but in practical terms, the Voyager is probably the better choice. Some of the reasons you've listed are part of that; the other part is that I don't want to sound too antiquated. Yes, I realize that it's all about how you use something, but the Moog is also quite distinctive and reminiscent of the 70s and 80s.

Since I do generate some income from my music (mostly from TV shows), I need stuff that is current. And with the Voyager, I can do that much more easily. If I were indeed some rich dilettante, then I would have bought the Moog long ago (I don't consider the Voyager to be a Moog).

I can afford both machines (barely), but can't justify it. There are other things I need than two expensive monos.

got a guy that might unload his at 2K. I guess I would buy it under those circumstances. I got a pretty good deal on my Voyager and will probably keep it too.

@oldgearguy:

to address your other point, I have not started programming the Voy. My logic?

I am a complete noob anyway, so it's doubtful that I could get anything out of the Voyager right now that would really give any additional insight. I figure it's more productive to listen to stuff online (both audio and video) from experienced programmers who already know how to get a lot out of their machines. And also hearing from some of these people (1/10 actually tries to help), would offer some additional perspective.

The sound cuts both ways. Take a TR-808. Probably one of the most distinctive drum sounds on the planet. Using it for an old school production makes it old. Injecting that bass drum, clap, or cowbell in a new context gives listeners a familiar sound in a new way. That familiarity can be a good thing.

I've never done TV/commercials/film music, but from the guys that have, the most common thing I hear is -- many changes, many last minute revisions, lots of need for instant and complete recall.

Without sampling you won't get that with a Mini unless you leave it on one particular setting.

So what I'm saying is that you may be able to get distinctive tones out of it that will give you an edge and make your music more distinctive, but it's going to come at a price and you have to be willing to pay that price in recallability (new word for y'all) and reliability.

[edit]

In the end, you're either making a business decision or a hobby decision. Neither is wrong, just make sure there's either a sound business reason or an emotional hobby reason that doesn't need justification. The business decision is easy - does buying piece of gear xxxx increase my bottom line in some way? (more business, higher fees, etc). The hobby side is also easy -- f*** it, I want synth zzzzz and no other reason is necessary. Just don't try and convince yourself that you just want it and it'll work out from a business perspective as well (i.e. - buying vintage rarely covers both sides).

No, this is terrible logic. Do stuff wit h it. Experiment. It's sort of like flying - the more hours you log, the better. Doesn't matter which plane. All you learn on a Voy can be applied to a Mini and watching videos does not compare to actual hands-on experience.

+ 1

well, I am saying I have seen people get a growl out of the mini that I am in love with and i haven't seen ANYbody do it with the Voyager. If experienced synthesists can't get the sound out of a Voyager, then how can I expect to get it? But I've heard lots of examples on the Mini, so I am inclined to believe that it's something inherent to that synth.


Ironically, I do have a pilot's license, so I see the flying analogy. but I see it a bit differently. to me, it's more like trying to choose two different planes for aerobatics, but not knowing how to fly these maneuvers myself. If I fly these planes myself, I can see how they feel, but will really get no practical insight as to their aerobatic abilities. Otoh, if I watch experienced pilots, I can see what the planes can do under the right controller.

with all that said, I am leaning towards just keeping the Voyager.

I only briefly tested one of the new moogs..and they sound like an analog synth sounds theese days.. cleaner than the vintage stuff, more lifeless than the vintage stuff. Still nice and strong..

But the old ones have defently more charakter and a warmer more 3 dimensional tone..

Big part of the vintage sounds are the vintage electronic components. even the older opamps sound distinctivly different to modern more acuratly laser trimmed types. And the old one dont even uses many op amps, its mostly discrete with hand matched transistors.. I dont think they make them like this theese days.

Especially in analog synth circuits you really hear the components.
A differnt chip brand gives a different sound.

So for the original minimoog sound there is nothing like an original minimoog. But the new ones are defently interesting too.

my sentiments exactly.

Some of you have expressed interest in how things turn out and certainly, my threads on the subject have generated quite a bit of discussion, some of it actually productive.

After thinking things over, I realized that the Model D is not a practical choice for me right now. I am investing in equipment in the hopes of making better music and making more money from it than I do now. I am not an avant-garde type of musician, I have more of a commercial sound with a bit of an edge. The point being that I need to be up to date and not behind the times. As much as I love the Moog sound, I do not think it could be a workhorse for the type of music I make and want to make in the future.

Otoh, the Voyager sound is very current; additionally, it is much easier to use, at least from an operational standpoint. The Mini would need a midi kit and more maintenance and service (at least the ones that were in my price range).

Also, i could always sell the Voyager later, if needed; but the Mini, as surprising as it may seem, doesn't seem to be moving. I am not convinced I could sell it without taking a fairly large hit.

So...

I probably won't be posting much on here. I've got plenty of gear to keep me busy for now. Thanks to all that were trying to help!

Thank you for letting us know. Now I will be able to sleep at night.


Just kidding....

I had a similar discussion months ago about the Moog Prodigy vs the Little Phatty. I had a Prodigy for a while and loved it, but it was quirky and sensitive and sometimes just didn't work when I needed it to. I'm in the process of selling some rack gear I'm not using, and may buy a monosynth. The LP is my first choice. I don't care if it sounds vintage enough or moogy enough. I've tried it and it sounds pretty damn good, and the interface is not half bad, and it's build to last at least 10 years. If I were choosing between a Model D and a Voyager, you're damn right I'd take the Voyager as well.

Guys, let's just call it as it is:

Trolling.

BUY THE MINI.

TRY THE MINI.

LIKE THE MINI = KEEP IT.

DON'T LIKE THE MINI = SELL IT (at no loss).

ANYTHING else is just trolling at this point.

(Didn't he say at one point he had enough money to buy 3 minis and then that changed to "barely afford"?)

Regardless, please please PLEASE take our word for it when more experienced people advise you that YouTube is NOT in ANY way adequate for evaluating a synth's sound... I've owned multiple Model D over the last few years and can tell you I intimately KNOW that sound and can tell you 100% that YouTube videos don't come close to capturing it.

So, go back to top of post and repeat until thread is long dead.

Good luck.

-a

But... but... it's a synthesizer! It can do more sounds than just that! Aside from that growl you're going to have a good amount of overlap between both.

You're seriously not going to plonk down over $3K to set the knobs in the right position and leave them there forever, right?

Also, the Voyager has presets. Meaning that when you look at the panel - if it's properly visible at all, which is virtually never the case - you can't possibly tell (as a non-experienced synthesist - experienced ones would still have to reconstruct the patch) what they're supposed to be.

Also, post one demo or video where you hear that certain kind of growl so I know exactly what you're talking about (onomatopoeia are kind of crappy for synthesizers). I'll give it a shot myself, and post the actual resulting wave files.

Apologize for the mistake, but my point that the Voyager sounds similar/different in different situations doesn't change.

It doesnt take an experienced synthesist to be able to look at the screen and turn a knob at the same time. You could train monkeys to do it.
If you cant work that out you'll never figure out a patch sheet.

I owned a minimoog since 1992 and have loved the GROWL that comes out of that thing. I have many other moogs (polymoog, memorymoog, source, taurus 1, liberation, voyager, taurus 3) and the Voyager was the only one that could deliver that growl. The old Oberheim SEM is the only non-moog synth that has that growl.

But if someone's doing it in a video, at an angle, in a badly lit room in a low-resolution take, then it gets quite a bit harder.

Thing is, we're dealing with a self-proclaimed newbie here. Which isn't bad - we all had to start somewhere.

So let me get this straight: effectively fooloof spent over two thousand dollars on a synthesizer which he's not going to touch for a month because another one may be more to his liking.

I uh. I just don't know anymore.

heh

In fooloof defense, he finally realizes that better sounding is not always better fitting to your needs... i hope...

Good point



It sure does appear that way.

Thats because your not too scared to touch it's knobs.
Maybe you could make a Youtube video so Fooloof could see your growler(so to speak).

Boy am I glad they're called that, so the worst safe search mistake you could make would have you looking at pitbulls.

It would probably be best to buy a DX-7. The 80's have been making a comeback in a huge way lately, both in music and (unfortunately) clothing, so it's bound to meet the requirements for "current" I guess when the 60's or 70's make a comeback the MiniMoog might be "current" again.

Does anyone else think "Mach4" and "Fooloof" are the same person?

"Mach4" became a member just in time to make all the same arguments that "Fooloof" was getting flak for and his entire post history are "Fool's" threads.

Hmmm...

(Not that I really care, just found it... odd heh)

fooloof,

Maybe it's already been said in multiple ways, but I think this is what you're fighting, and you have to approach it a different way:

You have the Voyager, but you're not really getting sound out of it that inspires you, the way you imagine -- since you don't have an ancient Minimoog -- an ancient Minimoog might.

You fear that you may spend lots of time on the Voyager, and STILL not get anything inspiring out of it. You continue to think there's this sound you'll love that an ancient Minimoog makes, that is what you really want.

That's entirely possible, and none of us can tell you one way or the other what will happen, over time. Might be you learn your Voyager and smack your forehead over why you ever wanted all the trouble that goes with learning and maintaining an ancient Minimoog. Might be you regret wasting all that time, finally sell off the Voyager for an ancient Minimoog and wonder why you didn't do it sooner.

There's really only two ways to solve this problem:

a) Take the chances with your Voyager, spend two years mastering it (any less time really isn't a concerted effort, believe me), and if you still don't get what you want out of it.... sell it and move on.
b) Get rid of the Voyager right now, get a used Mini in hopefully good working condition, calibrated etc., and then spend those two years with it.

There's a third, more expensive choice: get both, and spend time using your ears to see which one really gets you what you want, musically. Get rid of the one that doesn't, or maybe at the end of that trip, you'll decide that the thousands of dollars it cost to get both was well worth it, and you're not getting rid of either. You're a pilot, you already have one expensive hobby (unless it's your job?), so you're familiar with racking up the bills on fun already (maybe).

But the bottom line is, and I'll tell you this from years of experience: do NOT be seduced by the internet. Do NOT be seduced by marketing of technical features. Because there are lots of different tech specs all of which may be functionally useful depending on specific technical goals you might have, but NONE of them tell you about the sound. Youtube does not tell you about the sound. All of us laggards online here do not tell you about the sound. Only your ears will bring you to the right decisions, for you, and ultimately, after that, nothing else matters. What sounds good to you, regardless of price, specs, reputation, status factors or whatever, is what I think you ultimately want. No-one can decide that for you, and it's all too easy to be distracted from that by others' profuse opinions.

All that said, I'll say one other thing: lots of good comments on this thread, even from the more irascible ones, but above all, trust Yoozer and TheRealMC. I've seen these guys online for over a decade, they've been a constant resource that whole time, both have immense, extensive both musical and technical experience and expertise, have been closely involved with both electronic music and the musical instrument industry. Don't really know as many details about Yoozer, but TheRealMC I know has been very close to some of the best analysis of the foundations of what makes "analogue" sound great there is available online. He was involved with development of the Andromeda. He's created definitive studies of what makes a Moog sound like a Moog, which he's generously shared.

So if you have to listen to anything beyond your ears.... listen to those two guys, above all. They've been "right," in my opinion, on _all_ this stuff for a very long time, more than anyone else on the internet.

Oh! One last thing: a lot of what a lot of us consider "wonderful sound" when we hear it online, or more preferably, on a CD with uncompressed non-MP3 sound on it, or live, is the result not only of a particular instrument, but of the effects on it, the reverb, the room sound, the way it was mixed in a track, the way it was "sweetened" with innumerable sweetening techniques that are legion in the professional recording industry and... above all... the mastery of the musician, as well as the engineer of the mix, behind the machine.

Don't be surprised if your raw encounter with that lonely little instrument outside of all that doesn't sound the way you thought it would, based on your hearing it in the context of everything above. If you want to get "that" sound, you'll need all of the above, as well.

I've already gone through my '80's and '90's phases, and am back to the '40's and '50's now, working my way up to the '60's and '70's, by which time I'll probably be craving the '80's and '90's soundz again....

+1 on the atc-1.

from a output level comparison, the atc-1 is noticabally louder. Currently, I prefer atc's tone over the voyager/se1. It has a meaner/agressive punch, also i can switch out the filter cartridge for different feel.

People have different taste, but I'd reccommend the atc.

There's something about the se-1's tone that i'm not too crazy about.(smoothness?) Maybe the reason why the cost of se1s have gone down to a very low 500 on ebay.

I havent had the voyager long enough to pass final judgement but i was a lil underwhelmed with the resonance compared to the slim phatty, which was surprising.

thx.

"Model E" is also the Welsh Minimoog.