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TX-802 vs TG-77 vs VZ-10m
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #31
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CoolColJ's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Nope :P

If it has at least 2 operators it should be able to do it
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #32
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolColJ ➑️
If you use a software editor it's much easier and faster to do FM stuff
Where does one find something like SoundDriver these days? Seems to be gone.,.. according to my half-assed google skills.,.
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #33
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolColJ ➑️
If it has at least 2 operators it should be able to do it
sweet... I think I'm in the clear with four then
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #34
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projectwoofer's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by djugel ➑️
is there any decent software programmers for the Casio VZ-10m?

Soundquest's Midiquest 10 XL...
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #35
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CoolColJ's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by djugel ➑️
Where does one find something like SoundDriver these days? Seems to be gone.,.. according to my half-assed google skills.,.

No longer being sold or supported. Apple killed it off when they bought Emagic
Best bet is to look for second hand copies

Midiquest is terrible compared to it - buggy unfinished mess.
But it's not like you have much choice these days.

-----

If you tell me kind parameters the Korg has I might be able to give you a guide to getting a similar sound. I guess I could take a look at a manual or something.

Here is a similar sound I just banged out just then on a single module of my TX416. Basicly a rackmount DX7
Screen capped from Sounddiver

You can see I have Operator 1 being modulated by OP2
OP1 is at a frequency of 0.5.
Think of it as footage 32' on an analog synth
OP1 is at 2 - ie 8' Well it should be at 2, but I screen capped it after I changed it
This frequency relationship is what gives you the woody square wave tone. Just make OP2 higher than OP1.

Next you can see OP1 is at level 99, max level, and it's envelope shape on the right.

OP2 is at level 90. The lower this is the more sine-wavy the sound is and vice versa. OP2 has a velocity curve of 3. This modulates it's level via velocity, so at max velocity it hits level 90, and vice versa. A bit like modulating a filter with velocity.
That's what I hear happening in the song above

OP1 is what determines the sounds shape and overall volume.
While you can think of OP2 as the tone of filter shaping in an analog synth

The envelopes have a scaling of 1 as seen on the far right, this just makes them get shorter as you go up the keyboard
TX-802 vs TG-77 vs VZ-10m-ccj_sd_txwoodbass.jpg


OP2 uses the same envelope numbers as the the bit that creates the blat in the Solid/Lately bass patch
If you run some feedback into OP2 you can make it sound more like a sawtooth sound
Attached Thumbnails
TX-802 vs TG-77 vs VZ-10m-ccj_sd_txwoodbass.jpg  
Attached Files

CCJ_TX_WoodBass.mp3 (630.1 KB, 1294 views)

Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #36
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
As someone has pointed out, these old basslines were probably done on a DX100 or some other 4-op synth. Derrick May had a DX100 but also used a Korg DS8 which is much the same as your Korg 707. CCJ has explained it quite well, these old classic sounds are pretty simple FM (mostly "alg 5" - two 2-op stacks, one with feedback, which I think is the default algorithm the Korg stuff uses). You don't need these monster racks for those sounds and they probably won't even sound as good or 'right' as the old ones. Things like the envelopes are a lot fiddlier on the big FM synths.
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #37
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CoolColJ's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Ahh but with the big racks you can stack 3 of these 2 OP sounds and detune

Plus I find a lot of the smaller FM synths just plain cheap sounding and noisey to boot.
Back a few decades when I had a DX21, I was not really happy with it's sound.
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #38
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolColJ ➑️
Ahh but with the big racks you can stack 3 of these 2 OP sounds and detune
And then it will sound 'wrong' heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolColJ ➑️
Plus I find a lot of the smaller FM synths just plain cheap sounding and noisey to boot.
Back a few decades when I had a DX21, I was not really happy with it's sound.
The old stuff is noisier but it was the exact equipment with all the flaws that was used to make all those classic records so if djugel is after that sound it's the simplest route to take. Look at the Solid Bass fun we've had recently, trying to get the TG77 to sound like a DX100 and it turns out it can't! Horses for courses. If someone was asking how to make the next classic 'brick on a keyboard' ambient album then a TG77 with Mr Himalaya's patches would be just the ticket.
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #39
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CoolColJ's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock ➑️
And then it will sound 'wrong' heh



The old stuff is noisier but it was the exact equipment with all the flaws that was used to make all those classic records so if djugel is after that sound it's the simplest route to take. Look at the Solid Bass fun we've had recently, trying to get the TG77 to sound like a DX100 and it turns out it can't! Horses for courses. If someone was asking how to make the next classic 'brick on a keyboard' ambient album then a TG77 with Mr Himalaya's patches would be just the ticket.

I thought the new Solid bass conversion I did sounded pretty close, as did the TX416? Just without all the noise and cheapness
The noise isn't part of the sound either, it's like background noise

Just a matter of matching parameters that have different ranges and values. It's all the same synthesis method, by the same company.
And it's not like someone programmed the sound either, it's a preset.

My Solid bass conversions
TX416
https://gearspace.com/board/attachme..._solidbass.mp3

TG77
https://gearspace.com/board/attachme...latelybass.mp3
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolColJ ➑️
I thought the new Solid bass conversion I did sounded pretty close, as did the TX416? Just without all the noise and cheapness
The noise isn't part of the sound either, it's like background noise

Just a matter of matching parameters that have different ranges and values. It's all the same synthesis method, by the same company.
And it's not like someone programmed the sound either, it's a preset.

My Solid bass conversions
TX416
https://gearspace.com/board/attachme..._solidbass.mp3

TG77
https://gearspace.com/board/attachme...latelybass.mp3
The TX416 is pretty noisy in that recording but the tone is different to the TG77 one (and we need a DX100 Solid Bass for a real comparison!). It probably is close enough to use in a mix but look at all the time spent fine tuning that you've had to do. IMO the big boxes have too many parameters to get lost in if you're chasing those classic sounds. It's like trying to get a DX to sound analogue, it can almost be done but what's the point?!
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #41
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CoolColJ's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
It's 12 bit convertor noise though. Like all first gen DX7.

Once I knew what to do for the conversion it was pretty quick
You just turn off stuff you don't need, but at least there is more when you want it
It's all part of the learning process with FM, since I'm pretty new to FM programming myself. I've always been clueless in the past and just set things randomly, but at least now I know what I'm doing to some degree.


I hate being restricted when there is a choice of something better.
People just need to knuckle down and learn things. You don't just hop into a car and expect to be driving, let alone racing at Le Mans
An artist needs to learn how to mix his paints to get the colours he wants
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #42
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolColJ ➑️
It's 12 bit convertor noise though. Like all first gen DX7.
Sounds more like hum from a power line or something to my ears. I'll have to record my TX7 and see how noisy that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolColJ ➑️
Once I knew what to do for the conversion it was pretty quick
You just turn off stuff you don't need, but at least there is more when you want it
It's all part of the learning process with FM, since I'm pretty new to FM programming myself. I've always been clueless in the past and just set things randomly, but at least now I know what I'm doing to some degree.

I hate being restricted when there is a choice of something better.
People just need to knuckle down and learn things. You don't just hop into a car and expect to be driving, let alone racing at Le Mans
An artist needs to learn how to mix his paints to get the colours he wants
I agree it's nice to have the options, FM on those mega boxes is still a vast area to be explored. For the classic old techno/house sounds I think the older synths get there quicker and will sound 'right' to someone whose ears are tuned to those old records. Even going from the first FM generation to the late 80s ones Yamaha added subtle things like fine operator tuning, fixed operators and better hardware that changed the sound. It's like using a Juno, they are limited but you are guaranted it will sound good or 'like a Juno'.
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #43
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CoolColJ's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I've gotten used to the facilities of the TG77 that when I go back to the TX416 I find the limitations annoying

There are a lot of things you take for granted on the TG77, they just feel right, and you just expect them to be there. Like phase locking options for each individual operator. It's a global on/off switch on the DX/TX
Old 24th May 2011 | Show parent
  #44
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cresshead's Avatar
back in the 80's-90's i had both a sy77 and a casio vz1

the sy77 was pretty good, i really liked it and it was the hub around which i wrote songs with back then.

i found the casio vz1's preset patches not that good, there were a few nice pads but on the whole it was not great..i realise that thesedays we'd get a good editor on a pc with luck and could take better advantage of the 8 stage envelopes. the vz1 keyboard was very nice and had aftertouch too as well as 3 mod wheels.

if i had to chose between them i'd go with the yamaha be it a sy77 or a dx7 based module.

also be aware that the 4 operator tx81z has some advantages over the dx7's 6 operators as the tx81z has more waveforms to create building blocks with than a dx7 based 6 operator engine which can only use sine waves so the might need to use 2 operators to create a saw wave for example in a dx7
Old 25th May 2011 | Show parent
  #45
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Thanks for the tips CoolColJ.. the inferface on the 707 isn't so bad... so I don't really think I need software at the moment..

But I never want to touch my old VZ10m ever again without some software.
Old 25th May 2011 | Show parent
  #46
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Ever check out the Yamaha TQ-5? It's a table top version of an FB-01. Rather small, size of a text book. It includes sequencer and FX.
They used to be practically free on ebay....now 50 to 100, rarely 100 or I would have sold mine, ha!


Yamaha TQ-5 | Vintage Synth Explorer
Old 4th June 2011 | Show parent
  #47
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Hi, what do you guys think about the TG33 ? It seems to be a really good machine for complex pads and ambient and they go for pretty cheap usually.
Old 4th June 2011 | Show parent
  #48
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dlmorley's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrackedActor ➑️
Hi, what do you guys think about the TG33 ? It seems to be a really good machine for complex pads and ambient and they go for pretty cheap usually.
I sold mine. A bit lofi sounding but interesting according to some. I prefer the Wavestation by far for those type of sounds.
Old 4th June 2011 | Show parent
  #49
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlmorley ➑️
I sold mine. A bit lofi sounding but interesting according to some. I prefer the Wavestation by far for those type of sounds.
It is a bit lo-fi, the crappy effects really don't help but at least there is an 'effects off' button.

I find it a bit love/hate but it's a certainly got character, no overlap with anything else I've got so it stays. Sounds very good through an external filter.
Old 4th June 2011 | Show parent
  #50
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projectwoofer's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrackedActor ➑️
Hi, what do you guys think about the TG33 ? It seems to be a really good machine for complex pads and ambient and they go for pretty cheap usually.
Actually, the TG33 is a totally different little synth. Lo-fi samples with FM and a nice vector. But the FM synthesis on this one is a joke compared to the 3 others...
Old 5th June 2011 | Show parent
  #51
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstackm ➑️
If you want a more Familiar "vintage" sound

1) TX-802

If you want a sort of warm vintage hybrid

1) Casio VZ-10M

If you want a more modern sounding FM operator

1) TG77 (Although an SY99 is probably king along with the FS1R)
Can't fully agree here. The TX-802 (not to be confused with the TX-816) is second generation like the DX7II with a clean good fidelity sound and more features like multitimbral capability. The vintage sound is the original 12bit DX7 and related instruments. There is the often talked about grit that in hindsight a lot of people like who don't do smooth sounding music (for that the 16bit units of NI FM8 would be better) find useful. But also as mentioned here but rarely other places that those early units have crap signal to noise ratios, and it's not a steady hiss or hum you can more easily deal with, it's more a fizzy or hashy sound at a low but audible level.

The Casio is neither FM nor a hybrid. It's their own non-sample based digital synthesis Phase Distortion meant to compete which can deliver a good range of sounds that while not that dramatically different, aren't the same and certainly don't program the same way as FM.

The TG33 was a sidestep and is the vector synthesis link between the pricier Sequential Prophet VS and the Korg Wavestations. It included some very basic FM as a source of variable synth waves to contrast the low-ish quality ROM waves inside.

The Korg 707 was an earlier sidestep to make a simpler FM synth at a time when Yamaha owned an interest in Korg.

The TG77 was the last rack in the original progression though the large and pricey SY99 keyboard went further. What these bring to the table are ROM-pler capabilities at the same time as FM.

One might argue that to some small extent the Kurzweil K2X00 series went on with the idea. They couldn't use the still patented FM technology so the FM aspect is semi-hidden and more basic. What it's bringing to the table is a ROM-pler foundation with a real sampler option as well as a complex synthesis engine using the waveforms at hand.

Finally the Yamaha FS1R was another step on a different tangent. It eliminated the ROMpler workstation aspects of the prior units and went for 8 operator FM (more than the standard 6) with additional digital resonant filter capability as well as a new Formant synthesis capability. There were so many parameters that some were only software accessible in contrast to some actual knobs on the panel which were quite tweakable. I had heard rumors Yamaha was working on resynthesis computer software that would make a patch to be uploaded back into the synth, but Yamaha didn't go further with it or more sophisticated FM.
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