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programming dance beats that push?
Old 30th March 2010 | Show parent
  #241
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🎧 15 years
Setup a super fast stereo delay (like 15-20ms) on a buss and then put the Waves Imager after that to widen it out more. That is a nice usage of the plug. Using it to pan everything is not ideal.
Old 31st March 2010 | Show parent
  #242
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aof21's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 ➡️
I found that Waves imager to thin things out rather too much for my liking last time I used it (ages ago...).....I'd stick to just panning for this.
I would strongly second this. Waves imager doesn't really do widening that well. (Strange I know, since that's what its supposed to do!) Duping the track and delaying one forward, one backward and panning them wide does the trick MUCH better and is probably actually lighter on the CPU than having tons of waves imagers all over the place.
Old 31st March 2010 | Show parent
  #243
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab ➡️
Setup a super fast stereo delay (like 15-20ms) on a buss and then put the Waves Imager after that to widen it out more. That is a nice usage of the plug. Using it to pan everything is not ideal.
Super fast???

Man, with those extremely long delay times you'll **** up the groove like a Mopho!


...heh
Old 31st March 2010 | Show parent
  #244
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➡️
Super fast???

Man, with those extremely long delay times you'll **** up the groove like a Mopho!


...heh
I don't even know what your point is. If it is just to start crap with people on here again, consider getting outdoors more often.
Old 31st March 2010 | Show parent
  #245
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab ➡️
I don't even know what your point is. If it is just to start crap with people on here again, consider getting outdoors more often.
Well, i am still laughing my ass off at people who go on about the importance of milliseconds (or in some (nut)cases tenths of milliseconds, muahahaha heh) for grooves while using effects that do affect the timing much more radically - such as smacking a 20 ms delay on a track.

Actually - the 20 ms delay might be an audible rythmic effect - after all two hundreths of a second might actually affect the groove audibly.


...one thing i wonder about is actually how these people with golden ears hear chorusing and flanging effects.

After all those are modulated delay lines in the low ms range - so do their ears really pick up all the small echoes and translate that into rythmic information?
Old 1st April 2010 | Show parent
  #246
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aof21's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➡️
Well, i am still laughing my ass off at people who go on about the importance of milliseconds (or in some (nut)cases tenths of milliseconds, muahahaha heh) for grooves while using effects that do affect the timing much more radically - such as smacking a 20 ms delay on a track.

Actually - the 20 ms delay might be an audible rythmic effect - after all two hundreths of a second might actually affect the groove audibly.


...one thing i wonder about is actually how these people with golden ears hear chorusing and flanging effects.

After all those are modulated delay lines in the low ms range - so do their ears really pick up all the small echoes and translate that into rythmic information?
as I was editing a vocal track last night, nudging it by 1ms second so it would be "on the beat" rather than late, I silently chuckled at how committed you are to your ignorant point of view and how much time you are wasting trying to convince us that this doesn't matter. What's next, going on a guitar player's forum and saying "why do you guys make such a big deal about what amp you use? I'm sure you couldn't pick the difference between them in a blind test!"

Yes dude, we are discussing minutiae. We know that. We understand a lot of people can't hear that. Most of the amateurish dance tracks out there are made by people who CLEARLY don't hear and understand this stuff. But please, please, respect the fact that we can hear a difference and it's part of our process.

I know for certain that I can't hear the difference between a lot of different mic pre-amps or A/D converters because I don't have a ton of experience with them. But I'm certainly not going to go into the mastering forum and try to hijack threads of people who can hear those differences and want to discuss them.
Old 1st April 2010 | Show parent
  #247
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by aof21 ➡️
as I was editing a vocal track last night, nudging it by 1ms second so it would be "on the beat" rather than late, I silently chuckled at how committed you are to your ignorant point of view and how much time you are wasting trying to convince us that this doesn't matter. What's next, going on a guitar player's forum and saying "why do you guys make such a big deal about what amp you use? I'm sure you couldn't pick the difference between them in a blind test!"

Yes dude, we are discussing minutiae. We know that. We understand a lot of people can't hear that. Most of the amateurish dance tracks out there are made by people who CLEARLY don't hear and understand this stuff. But please, please, respect the fact that we can hear a difference and it's part of our process.

I know for certain that I can't hear the difference between a lot of different mic pre-amps or A/D converters because I don't have a ton of experience with them. But I'm certainly not going to go into the mastering forum and try to hijack threads of people who can hear those differences and want to discuss them.

Spot on... and much more eloquent than the "successful troll is successful" image I was going to post
Old 1st April 2010 | Show parent
  #248
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
something is getting lost in translation... by posting about 1ms nudges you are agreeing with grumphh, who is pointing out that 15-20 milliseconds is NOT "super-fast" by any audio-rate definition. Rather, it's way too course for subtle track-widening purposes. Which, obviously, it is...

anyway, I'll let y'all get back to your minutia.
Old 1st April 2010 | Show parent
  #249
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grumphh's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by aof21 ➡️

Yes dude, we are discussing minutiae. We know that. We understand a lot of people can't hear that. Most of the amateurish dance tracks out there are made by people who CLEARLY don't hear and understand this stuff.
Actually, i do have a sneaking suspicion that the only ones who care about milliseconds are the amateurs reading about the importance of them on the net...

Pros just get on with it.

Come on - did music not swing when there were no editors capable of looking at stupidly tiny increments?

.....

As for the not hearing the milliseconds part - that is where my fabled blind test comes in to the picture.

I mean, just do it and see if you can accurately identify two tracks with 1 ms differences.

If you can, good for you, if you can't, the test will have saved you countless hours of nudging increments and you can get on to actually making better music by spending those hours on other aspects of production that are much more important...
Old 1st April 2010 | Show parent
  #250
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mullet's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Probably the biggest thing I've learned in the last two weeks, is TIMING!!

...pushing my hats, snares, and certain percs forward to give my track a faster feel. I literally spent hours on milliseconds, but its well worth it to have my track sound nice and tight... Its the difference between amateur and pro..

Honestly though, it wasnt until I had good monitors and room treatment before my ears could really zero in on the milliseconds of timing..
Old 1st April 2010 | Show parent
  #251
Gear Head
 
Tod Miner's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Those of us that can hear it, use it. If you can't, no worrries. You don't have to tell us. We just listen to your tracks and know you can't.

Kick Drums, Not People.
Old 1st April 2010 | Show parent
  #252
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mullet's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod Miner ➡️
Those of us that can hear it, use it. If you can't, no worrries. You don't have to tell us. We just listen to your tracks and know you can't.

Kick Drums, Not People.

well said. end of story!
Old 1st April 2010 | Show parent
  #253
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➡️
Well, i am still laughing my ass off at people who go on about the importance of milliseconds (or in some (nut)cases tenths of milliseconds, muahahaha heh) for grooves while using effects that do affect the timing much more radically - such as smacking a 20 ms delay on a track.

Actually - the 20 ms delay might be an audible rythmic effect - after all two hundreths of a second might actually affect the groove audibly.


...one thing i wonder about is actually how these people with golden ears hear chorusing and flanging effects.

After all those are modulated delay lines in the low ms range - so do their ears really pick up all the small echoes and translate that into rythmic information?
I was telling the guy how to Widen a track using a fast delay with the S1 imager after it on the buss. You don't even know what you are talking about and are a troll.

This is the first person I have ever put on my ignore list at GS, but he compeletely screwed this whole thread. Try reading it after his comments are ignored and you will see what I mean.
Old 1st April 2010 | Show parent
  #254
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mullet's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab ➡️
I was telling the guy how to Widen a track using a fast delay with the S1 imager after it on the buss. You don't even know what you are talking about and are a troll.

This is the first person I have ever put on my ignore list at GS, but he compeletely screwed this whole thread. Try reading it after his comments are ignored and you will see what I mean.
speaking of ignore list.. how do I do this and what does it do exactly? I have a couple doochebags I'd like to add to it..
Old 1st April 2010 | Show parent
  #255
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grumphh's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab ➡️
I was telling the guy how to Widen a track using a fast delay with the S1 imager after it on the buss. You don't even know what you are talking about and are a troll.
So, you widen the track - but what happens to the groove?

Just wondering here - i mean we have people that hear millisecond differences. A 20 ms delay in a mix must totally muck up any groove there might have been?

Unless of course it is only used for background pads.
Old 2nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #256
F5D
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mullet ➡️
speaking of ignore list.. how do I do this and what does it do exactly? I have a couple doochebags I'd like to add to it..
You can find this option in your user cp -> Edit ignore list.
Old 2nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #257
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Awesome, I didn't know you could do that.

This message is hidden because grumphh is on your ignore list.
Old 2nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #258
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by timothyallan ➡️
Awesome, I didn't know you could do that.

This message is hidden because grumphh is on your ignore list.
Yeah it's great. I never took the time and effort, but that guy is just a whacko and a waste of time.

Nice to know that others believe in feel and groove and will spend time to get it right in their work.
Old 2nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #259
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grumphh's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab ➡️
Nice to know that others believe in feel and groove and will spend time to get it right in their work.
You are bringing religion into this?

Actually, that is what you peoples reluctance to do blind tests looks like - clinging to your little fantasy that you can actually hear differences in the ms range without wanting to test it.


Sooooo easy: Create a fantastic piece that grooves to the max (you should already have one on your harddrive) and save it.
Then just nudge the hihats 1 millisecond (no "ticks" or other random measurements - just one thousandth of a second) and save that too.

Now have a friend play the two files randomly and see how many times you can identify them correctly.
Old 3rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #260
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Tarkovsky's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh ➡️
You are bringing religion into this?

Actually, that is what you peoples reluctance to do blind tests looks like - clinging to your little fantasy that you can actually hear differences in the ms range without wanting to test it.


Sooooo easy: Create a fantastic piece that grooves to the max (you should already have one on your harddrive) and save it.
Then just nudge the hihats 1 millisecond (no "ticks" or other random measurements - just one thousandth of a second) and save that too.

Now have a friend play the two files randomly and see how many times you can identify them correctly.

You're probably right - it is inaudible. But if it feels like the right thing to do, then it is.
Old 3rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #261
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XAXAU's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
It´s not about what you hear, it´s about what you feel.

If you´re DJing then one millisecond is a lot and will wreck the mix, even at a big club. Although I might be a bit allergic to that sort of thing.
Old 16th April 2010 | Show parent
  #262
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guges's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
grumphh, i slice my røde pølser 1mm slimmer than you do because it tastes better, and i can certainly tell the difference.
Old 17th April 2010 | Show parent
  #263
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grumphh's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by guges ➡️
grumphh, i slice my røde pølser 1mm slimmer than you do because it tastes better, and i can certainly tell the difference.
I bow to your superior tastebuds, and declare myself unworthy to even touch one bit of our favourite danish junk food ever again. heh


Æ! Ø! Å! Ha!
Old 27th February 2013 | Show parent
  #264
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Very useful thread. Here's a summary I have created to share with you.

Guys, thanks so much for contributing a lot to this thread. I know it's not the newest topic on the planet but I found it recently when searching for advice on programming beats and I read the entire thing including all the weird stuff. So I extracted a kind of essence for me and I thought it would be useful to share it with you and the rest of the world. Again, it's not my wisdom but yours, only in a condensed way. Hope you enjoy.

Seltsam.

Sounds
  1. Choose sounds that fit well to each other, different frequency spectrum helps to keep the mix transparent later.
  2. Limit yourself to only a few drum sounds. Many famous producers only use Kick, SD, Hats, Clap, Shaker, Crash (similar to Rock Music).
  3. Have the sound of drum sounds to lean towards the beat.
  4. Use a reverse snare leading into the snare.
  5. Use ghost notes (e.g. muted, percussive non-drum sounds, not identifiable as notes, for instance muted guitar).


Beat Programming
  1. Take one beat, which has four 16th´s. Have the second one early and the fourth late. This makes some sort of gravity field around the kicks and it feels like **** is getting sucked into it.
  2. Keeping the kick a few ticks late (or the other sounds a few kicks early) off the grid is one of the most classic techniques in dance music. That what gives the forward drive
  3. Use shaker or tambourine audio loops! Mix them very low. Chop them up!
  4. Or use low volume swung midi shaker loops (only as bit of swing) as they are moving the snares a bit off the grid.
  5. Also use percussion loops. Take those loops and chop them up.
  6. Use dotted 8th rhythms (3/16th intervals).
  7. Put whatever shakers, hi hat, snares andclaps that hit on the same beats as the kick - but a touch early.
  8. If you play in a 16th note tambourine and/or hi hat line with light accents on the very first 16th of the first beat and 3rd beat and heavy accents on the first 16th of the 2nd + 4th beat - quantize it to a very light swing and delay the whole track by 5 ticks then you should now have a grooving slightly loose tambourine over a rigid four on the floor - then put open 909 hats on the off beats and throw in your snares where you want them and maybe some other loose percussion.
  9. Duck shaker-, hi hat-, cymbal tails with a compressor, this will give u a nice "sucking" feel
  10. Play around with the decays (i.e. length) of the rhythm sounds - this is what makes a lot of difference. Play with open hi hat length, but also the closed hi hat, as between envelope and length lies the 'twitch' of your groove.
  11. Consider very carefully the relationship between your kick and the main bassline or strong rhythmic synth parts. Solo just your kick and the bass and make sure the groove is there.
  12. Try more slip notes than actual swing quantization.
  13. Quantize the note lengths to the nearest 20 ticks. Keeps the feel, but tightens it right up. (Logic: Go to functions > Transform > Quantize Note Lengths.)
Mixing
  1. Route every individual sound on one separate mix channel.
  2. Cut unwanted frequencies in solo mode, hear in mix and recover too much cut (especially hats).
  3. Use reverb on snares and hats, this will help to reduce masking of other sounds in the mix
  4. Use extremely subtle, beat-timed reverbs and delays. Make them so quiet that they're almost inaudible, but put them on a lot of your instruments. At first, you'll think it hasn't made a difference, but collectively, it works wonders.
  5. Use a compressor plugin over each drum track and adjust to taste. Make sure you keep the gain on the plug as low as possible here since we are using the compressor to shape the sound rather than boost it.
  6. Send all of the tracks to a bus and slap a compressor across it. Again keep the gain low and now start playing with the attack and release times as well as threshold and ratio.
  7. Group kick and bass together and compress - for a tight body of the track. Also a kick+snare group seem to be a very popular technique.
  8. Careful with limiters, they tend to eat percussion attack.

Last edited by Seltsam; 27th February 2013 at 08:48 PM.. Reason: Did not finish, was posted too early.
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