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Korg MS-20 MK1/MK2 differences?
Old 4th January 2014 | Show parent
  #31
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmNMusicman ➡️
here you go, this is the video where they do a direct comparison

KORG MS-20mini vs. MS-20 vintage - YouTube
check it out, in that video the ms 20 on the left has the screw in the vco diagram yet it is a korg 35 filter. so you have to look inside and see which filter it is regardless, if you have the screw

only if you dont have the screw then you can be sure you have the korg 35

i am buying one anyway no matter which rev i still think they both sound great and both filters can achieve great results, i think they just have different applications for different things you may want to filter through them
Old 4th January 2014 | Show parent
  #32
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Xero's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyFM ➡️
only if you dont have the screw then you can be sure you have the korg 35
NOT true! ms-20's have been found WITHOUT the screw that have the later OTA filter! You really do need to look inside. It seems like korg was just using whatever stock they had laying around at some point.

The only "sure-thing" is the early gray colored ms-20's. As far as I know, those all have the korg-35.
Old 4th January 2014 | Show parent
  #33
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
gotcha, thats good to know for everyone, i thought the ones without a screw were sure to have the korg35 filter. as it meant they had no daughter board screwed to the front of the ms20, at least that is what someone was saying around here. not that it matters that much to me its just good to know what you're buying

so cheers for sharing that as i am in the market for one and was asking the seller about what rev it was coz his had the screw but said he didnt know

so it seems unless is the older version you really have to open it and look insinde

or, if the filter difference is so important to you, why not just take a listen and figure it out like that

the point is you wont be able to tell unless you have spent time with both revs or put them side by side. both revs sound good and both filters are great for different things i'm confident
Old 16th November 2014
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
How much are these worth nowadays?
Old 16th November 2014 | Show parent
  #35
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Rob Ocelot's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Man ➡️
How much are these worth nowadays?
Original issue MS-20's with either Korg-35 or OTA filter?

A little less than they did before the MS-20 mini and the full size kit with the filter choice option.

I've seen between 1000 and 1500 lately being asked on CL. Before that I had seen almost $2500 for top condition.

What's more interesting are the prices for the MS-10, which is close to the price range of the MS-20 mini. The MS-10 almost always has the OTA filter, and has PWM which the MS-20 doesn't have. With many people choosing the MS-20 mini because they can actually find one over an original MS-10 the prices seem to have settled on $500-600 which puts it in line with some of the other 1OSC monos like Yamaha CS-10. Before, MS-10 prices were topping $1000.
Old 16th November 2014 | Show parent
  #36
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ocelot ➡️
Original issue MS-20's with either Korg-35 or OTA filter?

A little less than they did before the MS-20 mini and the full size kit with the filter choice option.

I've seen between 1000 and 1500 lately being asked on CL. Before that I had seen almost $2500 for top condition.

What's more interesting are the prices for the MS-10, which is close to the price range of the MS-20 mini. The MS-10 almost always has the OTA filter, and has PWM which the MS-20 doesn't have. With many people choosing the MS-20 mini because they can actually find one over an original MS-10 the prices seem to have settled on $500-600 which puts it in line with some of the other 1OSC monos like Yamaha CS-10. Before, MS-10 prices were topping $1000.
Thanks for that, I'd better hang on to mine then.

Now I just need a Kenton Solo
Old 17th November 2014
  #37
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Working with both versions of the MS-20 over the years the 1 is a bit more aggressive...kinda in an 90's Aphex Twin processed drum sort of way. The 2nd version of the filter was super smooth and round sounding...rubbery but not in a Roland way...Id say it's more the sound that Air used on their recording.

Hopefully this will make sense.
Old 17th November 2014
  #38
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Demokid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I have a gray version of the MS-20 with the screw in the VCA graphic section so I guess it is the LM13600 filter. I bought the MS-50 which I guess also has the later LM filter.
I recorded a filter test video between the MS-20 and MS-50. There is a different in sound but I don’t know if there are different filters or just cross talk in the patch cord making the MS-50 sound more aggressive.



Kind regards
Demokid
Old 17th November 2014
  #39
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Correct me if I'm wrong:
MS-20 MKI had a filter that was great but had some problems, e.g. it was quite noisy, so Korg made the MKII in which they redesigned the whole filter, so it turned out to be a bit smoother version, still great and it's just a matter of opinion which of these filters are better.

MS-20 mini has the MKI filter.

MS-20 KIT has BOTH filters but the switch is located inside the chassis.

Sonic State reviews MK1 and MKII filters in the MS-20 KIT review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcBPnOtsyp4#t=587
Old 17th November 2014 | Show parent
  #40
BM0
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teofunk ➡️
MS-20 KIT has BOTH filters but the switch is located inside the chassis.

Sonic State reviews MK1 and MKII filters in the MS-20 KIT review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcBPnOtsyp4#t=587
You can switch the filter on power on by holding down a few keys while turning it on. Different keys select which filter version to enable. However it does revert back to the default, set by the internal switch, when you turn it off and back on again without holding down any keys. I have mine set to the Mk2 filter, which I prefer.

Interesting to see in this old thread that most people seem to prefer the Mk2 filter.
Old 7th November 2016
  #41
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autoy's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Just got an MKII as well and having a go a few times with a Mini, I concur with the preference for the II filter, which easily does sub-sonic bass which becomes even bigger with the aid of the HP set at moderate resonance and mid-low cutoff. Absolutely earth-shuttering bass. Also: dead silent, no overheating and super stable tuning. The resonance is also more pleasing and less harsh without losing any of the typical MS-20 edge. Maybe there are differences between the MKI and the mini I haven't been aware of but if this comparison is valid I firmly stick with the MKII fondness.
Old 9th November 2016 | Show parent
  #42
Deleted User
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I have a MS20 kit since 2 weeks and I also most of the time use the mk2 filter, specially if it's about bass and smoother leads.. mk1 filter sounds cool too, but as already mentioned is quite noisy which gets pretty obvious at lower cutoff settings but I am happy to have them both.
Old 9th November 2016
  #43
Deleted User
Guest
+10 on the MK2.
I set both my MS-20Kits to this mode.
Old 9th November 2016 | Show parent
  #44
Deleted User
Guest
it's really funny, because I always thought that the mk1 filter is the one which people seem to prefer and rave about when talking about the ms20. of course it has a very very recognizable signiture sound and cranking up the resonance sounds great for certain sounds, but in general and in musical context the mk2 filter is much more useable, at least for me. I am really happy I didn't go the original mk1 route which I also was thinking about before getting the kit..
Old 10th November 2016 | Show parent
  #45
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autoy's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by decoder23 ➡️
it's really funny, because I always thought that the mk1 filter is the one which people seem to prefer and rave about when talking about the ms20. of course it has a very very recognizable signiture sound and cranking up the resonance sounds great for certain sounds, but in general and in musical context the mk2 filter is much more useable, at least for me. I am really happy I didn't go the original mk1 route which I also was thinking about before getting the kit..
I suspect it has to do with rareness in part. MKI models were harder to find before the mini and it had a somewhat acidic, raw and exotic character. This rawness was coupled to the noisy circuits and some overheating problems which Korg tackled with the MKII, the majority of the vintage MS-20s still alive today. With the advent of the modern MS-20 mini Korg modeled the original MKI behavior, noise and all. I think it proved that the later model not only had ironed the problems but also ended up with a more musical and useful filter design. LPF bass response is better, resonance is more liquid but allowed to be pushed into raw territory if needed, and HPF has a dramatic effect enhancing the bass region too. The original MKI had a 6dB/Oct HPF but I suspect the MKII could be a 12dB because the resonance self-oscillates in a more drastic way than what I heard in the mini. I would love if someone could shed some light on this.

Edit: according to this OTA (MKII) schematic it could be very well a 12dB/Oct (2-pole) HPF/LPF pair. This could explain some things I'm hearing and help dispel some myths (but hey, I could also be wrong).
Attached Thumbnails
Korg MS-20 MK1/MK2 differences?-img_0632.jpg  
Old 10th November 2016
  #46
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golden beers's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
filter differences between MS20 mini and MS20 MK2 (OG) :


first up: MS20 mini filter sweep
second up: MS20 MK2 (OG) filter sweep

patch is: both filters min cut off / max res. low pass is being modulated by EG2.

MS20 mini FILTER Sweep

MS20 MK2 (OG) FILTER Sweep


I know which I prefer !
Old 10th November 2016 | Show parent
  #47
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autoy's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers ➡️
filter differences between MS20 mini and MS20 MK2 (OG) :


first up: MS20 mini filter sweep
second up: MS20 MK2 (OG) filter sweep

patch is: both filters min cut off / max res. low pass is being modulated by EG2.

MS20 mini FILTER Sweep

MS20 MK2 (OG) FILTER Sweep


I know which I prefer !
Both LPF differ in character, as the self-oscillating resonance sweep shows, but we already knew that. What I'm trying to determine is if there's also a difference in HPF slope between MKI and MKII, as the OTA schematic (and my ears, if they don't deceive me) seems to suggest it.
Old 11th November 2016
  #48
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autoy's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
To solve the mystery I made measurements on the original MKII filter. They proved me wrong, it is indeed a 6dB/Oct HPF filter. So why the sonic differences? It's easy to explain: I assumed the Mini filters were an accurate version of the MKI filters. They're obviously not, as the vintage version exhibit around 20% more resonance in both LPF and HPF. The same difference can be found between a vintage MKII and their recreations in the Kit and Module versions. These differences, added to the fact the schematics allow for a 12/12 dB configuration, made me think of steeper slopes than previously reported but it's not the case. Vintage filters are measurably more resonant, and this effect is consistent across all models: to match resonance levels you must lower considerably the vintage version.
Old 11th November 2016 | Show parent
  #49
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Rob Ocelot's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by autoy ➡️
To solve the mystery I made measurements on the original MKII filter. They proved me wrong, it is indeed a 6dB/Oct HPF filter. So why the sonic differences? It's easy to explain: I assumed the Mini filters were an accurate version of the MKI filters. They're obviously not, as the vintage version exhibit around 20% more resonance in both LPF and HPF. The same difference can be found between a vintage MKII and their recreations in the Kit and Module versions. These differences, added to the fact the schematics allow for a 12/12 dB configuration, made me think of steeper slopes than previously reported but it's not the case. Vintage filters are measurably more resonant, and this effect is consistent across all models: to match resonance levels you must lower considerably the vintage version.
I wonder if this represents either differences in components (or their tolerances) versus then and now for an identical circuit design or perhaps some age effect of certain components after 40 years**. Could be something as simple as an internal pot adjustment (or adding a pot) to bring the resonances to the same level.

**(and no, I'm not suggesting aging of synths is like some fine wine)
Old 11th November 2016 | Show parent
  #50
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autoy's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ocelot ➡️
I wonder if this represents either differences in components (or their tolerances) versus then and now for an identical circuit design or perhaps some age effect of certain components after 40 years**. Could be something as simple as an internal pot adjustment (or adding a pot) to bring the resonances to the same level.

**(and no, I'm not suggesting aging of synths is like some fine wine)
Of course my first thought was miscalibration but then I got to test a second MS-20 MKII from a friend and compared it to mine together with all with available demos online I could find. It's easy to see the point where each starts to self resonate and the results are pretty consistent. Calibration could cause a deviation but the general difference is way bigger. I attribute the difference to the placement of the diodes in the vintage versions.
Old 25th May 2017
  #51
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I have the MKI, but it has the screw. The only way to tell for sure is to take off the side panel.
Old 25th May 2017
  #52
Deleted User
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In regards to differences, I have both #1206 and #1209 MS-20Kit keyboards.
In identical settings, with identical filters, they do sound different.
I am sure the same applies to most other analog VCO gear.
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