Quantcast
Anything a Juno 106 is better at than the juno 60? - Page 5 - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Anything a Juno 106 is better at than the juno 60?
Old 5th July 2015 | Show parent
  #121
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Burrito ➡️
Collectively we own huge amount of vintage analog synths and outboard, but we use none.
That's the saddest thing you've said. Sell them if you don't use 'm!

So everyone else outside Finland can enjoy them and make actual music with them.
Old 5th July 2015
  #122
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
yeah... midi.
Old 5th July 2015 | Show parent
  #123
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Burrito ➡️
It's opposite with ppl who have been in the game longer. Me or anyone i know does not use hardware anymore.
Sounds like a bummer... are you making techno still?
Or producing your daughters R&B album?

I've heard some techno artists go ITB and it works.. but it's very rare.
Old 14th May 2017
  #124
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
does anyone know what a juno 102 is?

Old 14th May 2017
  #125
Lives for gear
 
Rob Ocelot's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'm sure he meant to say "Juno 106"
Old 14th May 2017 | Show parent
  #126
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ocelot ➡️
I'm sure he meant to say "Juno 106"
ai, i think being on camera made him a bit confuzzled.

excellent studio. thought it would be nice to post it.
Old 14th May 2017
  #127
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Owned both at the same time a few years ago. Quite different sounding - 60 is vintage/early '80s synth pop sounding whereas the 106 is more modern sounding and better suited to house/techno etc.

Filters were different. From memory the 60's was squelchier and warmer sounding and the 106's was more aciddy and dark sounding.

60 had snappier envelopes although whilst this meant that there were sounds you could make on the 60 that you couldn't replicate on the 106, the reverse was also true. There were definitely some sounds that you could make with ease on the 106 that the 60 couldn't do. Not sure if it was to do with speed of envelopes or response curve or what.

The basic DCO was more powerful sounding on the 60 but the 106's sub oscillator could go louder and so made the 106 better for bass.

106 only had one chorus mode whereas the 60 has three (chorus 1, 2 and 1+2).

Don't own either anymore but if I had to buy again my head would say 106 as it definitely made much more useable sounds but my heart would say 60 as it was just a bit more special sounding.
Old 14th May 2017
  #128
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I also own both. For me a find the juno 60 a bit more meatier, more round body to the sound. The 106 always felt a tad thinner - if I had to choose it would be the juno 60 for me.
Old 14th May 2017
  #129
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
106 all the way. I personally didn't like the 6/60 tone as much. The 106 is classic.
Old 20th December 2017
  #130
Here for the gear
 
ajsmcs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajman ➡️
106 only had one chorus mode whereas the 60 has three (chorus 1, 2 and 1+2).
No. The 106 has the exact same Chorus 1 and Chorus 2 modes as the 60. You just can't run them at the same.

And - speaking subjectively - I can't understand why you'd want to. From the clips I've heard, 1+2 doesn't sound very good...***[1]

People talk about the 6/60 and 106 as if they're completely different instruments. They're not. The engineers took everything great about the 60, trimmed the fat, added a few useful features, and sold it for 61% of the price. With such stiff competition, they absolutely needed to. There's a good reason the 60 sold for only 2 years, and the 106 for 7.

Here are the actual electrical differences:
6/60
Hardware EG
EG PWM
Chorus 1+2
Arpeggiator

106
Software EG
Portamento
Bass Boost on HPF-0
MIDI
2x Preset Memory


They have the SAME DCO circuits, and the SAME VCFA circuits. Yes, I know the 106 has them on separate cards, but they are electrically identical.

I hear lots of people claim "I've played 15 different Juno 6/60 and 106s in my life, and the 6/60 sounds...punchier."

If you take two identical instruments, keep one in a climate-controlled studio its entire life while the other gets toted from bar gig to bar gig before being thrown into a badly insulated attic for 25 years, I can all but guarantee one will sound substantially different than the other. Electronics age, and how they are used and stored contributes immensely to how quickly those properties go out of spec, affecting the sound and function.

For example, electrolytic caps dry out over time, and even the best are only rated for 20-30 years. That rate is heavily influenced by how they are used and the environment in which they've been stored. And of course, the 106's original VCFA chips will fail over time, with their properties - and thus sound - changing up until the point they do.***[2]

Since the 60 isn't subject to that same design flaw, an unserviced unit might sound noticeably better than an unserviced 106. But comparing them in that state is as pointless as trying to figure out which of two slightly different cars can go around a track faster with 4 flat tires.

Aaaaannd even if the parts are all fine, there's a good chance they might need to be recalibrated.

I'm going to say this nicely. It doesn't really matter how many of each someone has played if they had no idea what state the electronics were in when they did.

If you take a 106 with nice new Analogue Renaissance VCFAs (which he made electrically equivalent to the point of lunacy) and a 60, install new electrolytics in both, run each through their factory calibration procs, and set them up as identically as possible, I highly, highly doubt you could tell which is which in a blind test. And even if you could, the differences would be very subtle at best. Put them in a song, and that'd go away completely.

This whole "Oh, I find one is better used in ____ whereas the other is much too thin sounding for that purpose and blah blah blah" no that's horse$hit. Unless your music needs that slight bass boost from the 106's HPF or the EG PWM of the 60, any music where the 60 shines the 106 will as well, and vice versa.

If you have one of each and your 106 is sounding thin, I can all but guarantee it just needs to be serviced. You can do it yourself. Its not difficult, and the differences are night and day.

Conclusion: For sound quality purposes, they're the same f****** keyboard, guys. Enough with the cork-sniffing. Play them, enjoy them, take care of them, and stop repeating the same old bull$hit.

***[1] Then again, I rewired my telecaster to give me all 6 possible pickup combinations, and despite 1-2-parallel-out-of-phase being a weird and mostly not useful sound, its still kinda nice having it for the rare chance it might fit. But if through some black magic that setting stopped working, I wouldn't miss it. So I could understand why people might be bummed out not having 1+2, but I don't miss it on my 106.
***[2] Honestly, replacing those chips should just be a matter of course for any 106 owner. It was a poor design mechanically speaking, and the replacements are a hundred times more reliable.
***[3] I'm very OCD, and will probably edit several times to fix various typos I may have missed. I do not, however, edit for content. I stand by what I say.
Old 20th December 2017
  #131
Lives for gear
 
swiller's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Excellent post ^^ and hats off for the acknowledgement of ageing process in synths altering the sound. I agree.
Right, im off to smoke my P6 desktop over some tobacco for 2 weeks in a room filled with thick dust being blown about by a desktop fan.

Great bargains still the 106 and a bundle of fun to use. Trick these days is to buy knackered ones, off to synth doc for repair and that comes in under £1k easy.
Old 20th December 2017 | Show parent
  #132
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
actually there's a page somewhere detailing how the clocking of
the DCO on the 60 differs from the 106.
(which i can't find now of course )

loads of youtube comparisons:
Old 20th December 2017 | Show parent
  #133
Here for the gear
 
ajsmcs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiller ➡️
Excellent post ^^ and hats off for the acknowledgement of ageing process in synths altering the sound. I agree.
Right, im off to smoke my P6 desktop over some tobacco for 2 weeks in a room filled with thick dust being blown about by a desktop fan.

Great bargains still the 106 and a bundle of fun to use. Trick these days is to buy knackered ones, off to synth doc for repair and that comes in under £1k easy.
Thank you.

Yeah...there's a fireplace in the room where I set up my studio. Makes me VERY nervous every time the wife decides to get a fire crackling...

I found mine on the top rack of a shelf labeled "JUNK" in a Tokyo 2nd hand electronics store, literally piled on top of a bunch of old Casios. Cost me - no joke - $189. Yes, you read that right. Less than 2 bills. They thought it was broken. It was, but not *that* broken.

"You know this doesn't work."
"Yes."
"No warranty."
"I don't care."
"ok...."

The case was almost immaculate. Not perfect, but easily an 8/10.

3 VCFAs, a couple repaired traces on the jack board, followed by a full calibration would have netted me a functionally perfect, visually very good Juno for $339.00. $11 LESS than a JU-06.

TBH, I did swap the other 3 VCFAs while I was at it for peace of mind, but it didn't really *need* them to be perfectly functional. So technically it was $489. Which is still laughably cheap.

I've been checking junk stores for overlooked gems for years, and this was the first time I hit gold.
Old 20th December 2017 | Show parent
  #134
Here for the gear
 
ajsmcs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by islandmonkey ➡️
actually there's a page somewhere detailing how the clocking of
the DCO on the 60 differs from the 106.
(which i can't find now of course )

loads of youtube comparisons:
The DCO clock serves the same function as the comparator/voltage reference circuit in a traditional VCO: it just sets the frequency of oscillation. So, a clock difference would equate to a pitch difference, and...that wouldn't really make any sense in terms of impact on the timbre.

I don't trust comparison videos because there are WAY too many confounding variables to prove anything conclusively. I have no idea what state the keyboards are in, what the individual signal levels are (if one is slightly louder, it will ALWAYS sound better), or if any other processing may have been done to the audio.

If you wanted to conclusively prove a noticeable difference in sound you'd need to hear - in person - a Juno-60 and a Juno-106, each with a full factory refresh and calibration performed by the same experienced tech using lab grade tools. The 106 would need to have new VCFAs. Both synths would need to be level-matched and played in a treated room behind a curtain through the same set of speakers with no effects or processing of any kind. Ideally you'd need at least 3 of each to account for any other variances. Obviously, you'd need to make the same patches on each. You want the test setup to be as ideal as humanly possible.

If anyone could consistently pick out the Juno-60's, I'd believe it.

But I seriously, seriously doubt they could.
Old 20th December 2017 | Show parent
  #135
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
not disagreeing or attempting to debate it.
shame i can't find the vid.
had both. had all 3, if i include the alphaJ1+pg300.
the 60 marked me more because it's such a 'generator',
with that arpeggiator, and the memories, and being able
to receive clock, for arps and chords. it was my first
synth, and i felt privileged to have it, knew i had something
special for peanuts, 'the means of production' literally.

never really felt that way about the 106, which felt more
like a sound module. absolutely excellent, seemed more
precise, but in retrospect maybe i should've got a JP-6,
which was my alternative possibility at the time. i went
for the midi bass machine (what i wanted it for) with a
better midi spec ( i liked the idea of the sysexable faders )

without being 'specialist', engineer-ish, i think that generation
of roland polys with arps, that weren't just midi keyboards,
were nicer instruments to prize: they just do stuff by themselves,
without having to be a great keyboardist, or have a sequencer
driving them. there's some fascination (and worth) in that. you
could set it off on an arp' and go looking for sounds - to old hands,
that's boring, but when you're discovering synths for the first
time, it's pretty much 'a typical synthesizer'. and they were
beautifully manufactured in those days.

in the end, the alpha won, but i knew it wasn't as fine in some
departments, and can't quite reach with the filter at times. i liked
the chord feature, and it's a shame they left the arp off it. used to
use it with an oberheim cyclone (before that drove me round the bend
with its insane interface). eventually sold AJ+PG too;
i'd say the JU-60 is more organic, JU-106 tighter, but that's just my
subjective after-the fact impression, and ultimately i'm not bothered
because i'd probably go for an alpha again now. in fact i'd probably
trade the mks50 in for an alpha, just for the immediacy, and because
it isn't a 'big' keyboard instrument.
Old 21st December 2017
  #136
Here for the gear
 
ajsmcs's Avatar
I adore the 106, and I'm sure I'd feel the same about the 60. They're both fine instrument. I'd be lying if I said I didn't wish the Juno-106 had an arp. It's a very cool and of-it's-time feature. I suppose I could go for the Kiwi mod eventually, but it would kill the immediacy of lacking menu diving. We can't have everything, I suppose.
And I say that as I browse eBay for a cheap DX7. XD
Old 22nd December 2017 | Show parent
  #137
Deleted d22f2ee
Guest
its horses for courses , no synth is better than another , they are all just different , the 60 i found better for deep richer sounds than the 106 but the 106 i found better for nice pad sounds at times , so which ones better over all ? neither really .
Old 22nd December 2017
  #138
Deleted User
Guest
This one?


Last edited by Zaphod Betamax; 22nd December 2017 at 03:10 PM..
Old 22nd December 2017 | Show parent
  #139
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
yep that's the one
Old 22nd December 2017 | Show parent
  #140
Lives for gear
 
daviddever's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsmcs ➡️
Here are the actual electrical differences:
6/60
Hardware EG
EG PWM
Chorus 1+2
Arpeggiator

106
Software EG
Portamento
Bass Boost on HPF-0
MIDI
2x Preset Memory
NOTE: The stock Juno-106 also has EG PWM (positive polarity only); the KIWI-106 mod adds negative EG PWM polarity, plus plenty of arpeggiator and sequencer goodness among other things.

So the fundamental differences in audio quality lie strictly with the IR3R01 hardware EGs, and the double chorus mode.

Juno-60 service manual: http://www.cyborgstudio.com/synthmp3...vicemanual.pdf
Old 22nd December 2017 | Show parent
  #141
Deleted 0ea68bb
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever ➡️
NOTE: The stock Juno-106 also has EG PWM (positive polarity only)
No, it doesn't.

I love how it's 2017 and people are still having the same misconceptions and pointless debates about the Junos that they did in 1997.
Old 22nd December 2017 | Show parent
  #142
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years


anyway: how about this. no, *wrong* Sunshine, Juno-6...
you mean the -60, mate? s'pose i was a bit snobby by the
time i saw a JU-6: 'what? no presets?'

what's the big deal about the juno-6 ?

Old 22nd December 2017 | Show parent
  #143
Lives for gear
 
daviddever's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Ruff ➡️
No, it doesn't.

I love how it's 2017 and people are still having the same misconceptions and pointless debates about the Junos that they did in 1997.
You're right, I'm wrong - it's only LFO PWM or manual PW on a stock 106 unit.
Old 22nd December 2017 | Show parent
  #144
Lives for gear
 
swiller's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsmcs ➡️
Thank you.

Yeah...there's a fireplace in the room where I set up my studio. Makes me VERY nervous every time the wife decides to get a fire crackling...

I found mine on the top rack of a shelf labeled "JUNK" in a Tokyo 2nd hand electronics store, literally piled on top of a bunch of old Casios. Cost me - no joke - $189. Yes, you read that right. Less than 2 bills. They thought it was broken. It was, but not *that* broken.

"You know this doesn't work."
"Yes."
"No warranty."
"I don't care."
"ok...."

The case was almost immaculate. Not perfect, but easily an 8/10.

3 VCFAs, a couple repaired traces on the jack board, followed by a full calibration would have netted me a functionally perfect, visually very good Juno for $339.00. $11 LESS than a JU-06.

TBH, I did swap the other 3 VCFAs while I was at it for peace of mind, but it didn't really *need* them to be perfectly functional. So technically it was $489. Which is still laughably cheap.

I've been checking junk stores for overlooked gems for years, and this was the first time I hit gold.
Nice story, i got mine for £400 about 8 years ago, started having issues 2-3 years after..spent £400 having it sorted with sockets for the chips to take the pain away, in 2016. A bargain. Done by ben in hereford who is revered synth tech in uk.

Let me briefly tell you a story about a skip in Richmond London.
So i was walking back from work one winters evening in 2005 and at top of my road, a flightcase poking out of a skip.
So i grabbed it and took a peek inside and.... JD800! with just one cursor key missing. Its obviously knackered i thought.
Back home, plugged in, all working. WOW. Midi, sliders, screen, outputs all working, just the kursor key missing. No sticky keyboard issue. Scracthes and scrapes but its a fully working JD800... In a skip ffs. Happy daze.
Kept and loved it for 10 years. Did not need anything done at all and used the midi editor for cursor key duties.
Moral of the story...
Dont just check the junk shops, check those builders skips as well
Old 22nd December 2017 | Show parent
  #145
Lives for gear
 
daviddever's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Many folks skip over the HS-60, which is every bit as good as its speaker-less Juno-106 equivalent.

With a bit of creativity, it's possible to plumb in a bit of delay or 'verb between the stereo outputs and the HS's stereo inputs.
Old 23rd December 2017 | Show parent
  #146
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsmcs ➡️
The DCO clock serves the same function as the comparator/voltage reference circuit in a traditional VCO: it just sets the frequency of oscillation. So, a clock difference would equate to a pitch difference, and...that wouldn't really make any sense in terms of impact on the timbre.
No. Just because it serves the same function does not mean that it makes no difference to the sound produced. A more stable clock will result in a more stable frequency - if the clock deviates there will be variance in the frequency and this will indeed impact the timbre. The 'drift' or 'slop' parameters that are found on several modern synth's make this quite obvious.
Old 23rd December 2017 | Show parent
  #147
Deleted User
Guest
So, what I think you are saying is VCO synths do not really need a slop parameter?

I just sold my JX-3P and PG-200, as I noticed that when both DCO hit "tune", I could hear
some sort of phase lock. Unsure which style of DCO clock the 3P had.
(I did not sell it though for this reason, that would have been petty)

I think my last DCO synth I will keep, the 8P, as it has a really deep bass.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lectrojape ➡️
No. Just because it serves the same function does not mean that it makes no difference to the sound produced. A more stable clock will result in a more stable frequency - if the clock deviates there will be variance in the frequency and this will indeed impact the timbre. The 'drift' or 'slop' parameters that are found on several modern synth's make this quite obvious.
Old 23rd December 2017 | Show parent
  #148
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod Betamax ➡️
So, what I think you are saying is VCO synths do not really need a slop parameter?
Not necessarily. Some of today's VCO's are able to hold a much more stable frequency and so it's not a purely analogue/digital circuit thing. Drift or slop parameters can be useful whenever the oscillators are too stable for some kinds of "vintage" timbres.
Old 23rd December 2017 | Show parent
  #149
Deleted User
Guest
Even amonst my VCO synths there is more drift that others...
from least to most
Vermona PerFOURmer, Vermona14, monotribes, ms20, timbre wolf.

my 8P has never gone out of tune, must share some of the 6-60-106 DNA




Quote:
Originally Posted by lectrojape ➡️
Not necessarily. Some of today's VCO's are able to hold a much more stable frequency and so it's not a purely analogue/digital circuit thing. Drift or slop parameters can be useful whenever the oscillators are too stable for some kinds of "vintage" timbres.
Old 23rd December 2017 | Show parent
  #150
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod Betamax ➡️
Even amonst my VCO synths there is more drift that others...
from least to most
Vermona PerFOURmer, Vermona14, monotribes, ms20, timbre wolf.

my 8P has never gone out of tune, must share some of the 6-60-106 DNA
Sure, the frequency of the oscillators can be affected by many things - the effects of temperature changes on components, where they are placed on the board, the stability of the clock....all these things are capable of influencing the sound.

FWIW I have heard plenty of 60's, 6's, and 106's and regardless of them being just tuned and trimmed with a scope the 60 and 6 share a certain character that is a little bit different to the 106. It's not a big difference by any means but it is there. Does it matter? That's up to the individual.
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 70 views: 34698
Avatar for Deleted 859c1b8
Deleted 859c1b8 24th June 2016
replies: 2140 views: 207023
Avatar for Don Solaris
Don Solaris 23rd August 2012
replies: 9469 views: 861987
Avatar for greggybud
greggybud 4 days ago
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump