The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
The Minimoog Model D Is Back in Production
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #451
Lives for gear
 
Phil Aiken's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by HBIII ➡️
I am going to have to disagree with people who say you can get the same sound from something else. You can't. Believe me, I wish you could. But I've looked, I've listened to the comparisons, I've tried the clones, I've downloaded the vsts. Nothing is as good, and that is purely from a sound perspective. Even if moog made a cheaper smt version it wouldn't sound the same.

Then there is the quality and usability perspective. For example, the poly D I tried was a gain staging nightmare, had zero headroom, overdriving it sounded sh*t, parameters were a lot harder to control than on the model d and didn't give you as fine control, and it had a bunch of annoying quirks like changing the resonance changed the filter cutoff, some clicking issues with the envelopes, etc., etc., and I was pretty sure it wouldn't last very long under heavy use. Just not studio quality in any way.

Plugins I enjoyed more, but the biggest issue sound-wise is they all sound a lot more static and less lively than the hardware. The last 10% matters, you may not think you notice it in a track, but you do. Mastering engineers realize this as well and will spend $100k+ on an analog mastering chain.

We're lucky moog is making a reissue that respects the original.
I'm pretty much with you. Yeah, you can make a video where you find static settings on the real deal that can be matched on a Boog or plugin. But if you are playing the thing and twisting knobs, it is not only not the same, but not even close. I have a Boog and think it is the bargain of the century, don't get me wrong.

Have done parts on plugins that did their job. Other times, needed the hardware. It's all great, but an app is not the same as a Minimoog. Hell, other hardware Moogs are not the same. There is something about the original circuitry that just has a little bit of extra magic.
Old 1 week ago
  #452
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Ehhhh...
I am just wondering at what price point would the most hardcore Moog fans wake up.

And what "value" are we talking about exactly ?
The synth as a tool for making pitched sounds of certain "vintage quality" ? (Then no friggin way it is worth more than 1000$ when there are cheaper and free alternatives).
Or the physical object that is quite nice to the eye plus all the legend and marketing bullcrap that comes with it ? (Then the price can almost be any number, because someone rich enough will pay 1 million $).
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #453
Gear Nut
 
Sharp7th's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt ➡️
Ehhhh...
I am just wondering at what price point would the most hardcore Moog fans wake up.

And what "value" are we talking about exactly ?
The synth as a tool for making pitched sounds of certain "vintage quality" ? (Then no friggin way it is worth more than 1000$ when there are cheaper and free alternatives).
Or the physical object that is quite nice to the eye plus all the legend and marketing bullcrap that comes with it ? (Then the price can almost be any number, because someone rich enough will pay 1 million $).
Let me rephrase this a bit:
The synth as a tool for making pitched sounds of certain "vintage quality" that is also a physical object that is quite nice to the eye plus all the legend and marketing which allures, wowes and inspires you - priceless.

This constant discussion about price and mix up of value and costs is getting boring. There are plenty of alternatives in all price brackets. Get the one that suits you and let others spend their money as they like.

Moog as a company is in the business for making money, and then even more money. They are free to charge whatever they like. They just happen to have all the heritage and legend. If I were to produce this exact Model D under my name I a) would be facing some copyright issues and b) would sell exactly zero at this price point.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #454
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp7th ➡️
If I were to produce this exact Model D under my name I a) would be facing some copyright issues and b) would sell exactly zero at this price point.
The electronic design of the original MM is public domain now.
With good imagination and UI design skill, you could make it look beautiful, user friendly, but different enough to avoid being sued for copying the trade dress.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #455
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt ➡️
Ehhhh...
I am just wondering at what price point would the most hardcore Moog fans wake up.

And what "value" are we talking about exactly ?
The synth as a tool for making pitched sounds of certain "vintage quality" ? (Then no friggin way it is worth more than 1000$ when there are cheaper and free alternatives).
Or the physical object that is quite nice to the eye plus all the legend and marketing bullcrap that comes with it ? (Then the price can almost be any number, because someone rich enough will pay 1 million $).
Yeah, i could not say it better... after 25years of music making and after having it all at least once, i say they are doing this because they see that they can, the same with sequiental and all others overpriced stuff today. Pepole justify buying things due to mystifications as "a legend, ultimate bassmachie, fairydust, premium components bla bla... non of this is still relevant to such high price...wake up!!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #456
Gear Nut
 
Sharp7th's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt ➡️
The electronic design of the original MM is public domain now.
With good imagination and UI design skill, you could make it look beautiful, user friendly, but different enough to avoid being sued for copying the trade dress.
Yes, you are probably correct.
But then there is still this "selling zero for 5000$ issue" ....

What would prospective buyers pay for a Model D by Sharp7th?
(who's that guy, is it legit, just a knock off, what about support and parts availability, warranty, delivery times, delivery to country xy, payment options, and at the end it would still be not innovative and totally overpriced)
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #457
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp7th ➡️
Yes, you are probably correct.
But then there is still this "selling zero for 5000$ issue" ....

What would prospective buyers pay for a Model D by Sharp7th?
(who's that guy, is it legit, just a knock off, what about support and parts availability, warranty, delivery times, delivery to country xy, payment options, and at the end it would still be not innovative and totally overpriced)
Yes, it wouldn't be 5000$.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #458
Gear Nut
 
Sharp7th's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by prophet122 ➡️
non of this is still relevant to such high price...wake up!!
Yes, capitalism sucks.

I am in this music making stuff for more than 30 years and guess what: Never has there been I broader and more affordable range of electronic music making gear from boutique manufacturers catering to the most obscure modular needs to mass market analog, hybrid, digital keys, modules and VSTs to the still amazingly affordable (compared to other instruments like eg. a stinking Tenor Sax from Selmer for 7 grand) higher and high end synths.

I want a free lunch like the next guy. But making stuff costs money, companies need profits. Otherwise we all would be jamming along on the same government issued casiotones...
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #459
Lives for gear
 
Moonwhistle's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by prophet122 ➡️
Yeah, i could not say it better... after 25years of music making and after having it all at least once, i say they are doing this because they see that they can, the same with sequiental and all others overpriced stuff today. Pepole justify buying things due to mystifications as "a legend, ultimate bassmachie, fairydust, premium components bla bla... non of this is still relevant to such high price...wake up!!
Things are worth what people will pay for them.

When your product/service has a high demand, you’re a fool not to charge the maximum people will pay for it.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #460
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt ➡️
Then the price can almost be any number, because someone rich enough will pay 1 million $).
You can bet if vintage Minimoogs were selling for $1M, Moog would charge $900k for these, and so they should as a commercial enterprise.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #461
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp7th ➡️
If I were to produce this exact Model D under my name I a) would be facing some copyright issues and b) would sell exactly zero at this price point.
Exactly. Thanks for proving my point. If you were to produce "THIS EXACT MODEL D", you'd sell zero at that price because in reality it's not worth that price.

Again, it's worth $2,000. The remaining $3,000 you're paying is just sentimentalism gone wild. And there's no problem with that. Go ahead pay $10,000. But let's not kid ourselves here. Practically and sound-wise, it's worth $2,000 tops.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #462
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️
Exactly. Thanks for proving my point. If you were to produce "THIS EXACT MODEL D", you'd sell zero at that price because in reality it's not worth that price.

Again, it's worth $2,000. The remaining $3,000 you're paying is just sentimentalism gone wild. And there's no problem with that. Go ahead pay $10,000. But let's not kid ourselves here. Practically and sound-wise, it's worth $2,000 tops.
This is 100% bullshit. If someone else made this exact product for the same price (and the Moog version didn't exist to compete) they would definitely be selling. People other than Moog have sold module versions of Minimoog clones for $2k+, there is no reason to think people wouldn't pay more for a proper instrument.
Old 1 week ago
  #463
Lives for gear
 
xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yup SE sell their MIDIMINI rack for $3K..
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #464
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax ➡️
Yup SE sell their MIDIMINI rack for $3K..
What makes you think V30 isn't also overpriced? V30's worth $1,500 tops.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #465
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
There is no over or under priced just the market price.

If you don’t like it.. vote with your dollars and don’t buy

If people don’t buy it.. the price will drop

I don’t expect this will happen

If anything (like the Moog One) the price could go up over time

Haters will complain.. and owners will enjoy
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #466
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
There’s lots of very high priced things that people buy

It’s bad form to sit around and complain about it

Most of the EDM hits today are made with plugins

Billy Eilish in a room on a macbook

Let’s be THANKFUL

CELEBRATE the fact that just about ANYONE can access those plugins

This is a golden age of access to music tools

And nobody NEEDS a minimoog

The more you complain about the price the more it seems you WANT one

Last edited by drockfresh; 1 week ago at 02:15 PM..
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #467
Lives for gear
 
xanax's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️
What makes you think V30 isn't also overpriced? V30's worth $1,500 tops.
you're dreaming pal.. through-hole boutique comes at a cost.

there is always behringer & plugins if you're trying to save a buck.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #468
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh ➡️
There is no over or under priced just the market price.

If you don’t like it.. vote with your dollars and don’t buy

If people don’t buy it.. the price will drop

I don’t expect this will happen

If anything (like the Moog One) the price could go up over time

Haters will complain.. and owners will enjoy
Haters? So pointing out something is overpriced makes you a hater? I really dig the Minimoog. Not a hater here.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #469
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️
Haters? So pointing out something is overpriced makes you a hater? I really dig the Minimoog. Not a hater here. Just a realist.
Why do you think it’s overpriced?

Is there some formula for parts, labor , r &d that you personally think is fair?

If reissues have sold on Reverb for $6k could someone say this is underpriced?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #470
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️
Haters? So pointing out something is overpriced makes you a hater? I really dig the Minimoog. Not a hater here.
If you dig the Minimoog
This new one might give you a shot at buying a used reissue at a good price. They had dropped pretty low the past before it was discontinued.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #471
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh ➡️
If you dig the Minimoog
This new one might give you a shot at buying a used reissue at a good price. They had dropped pretty low the past before it was discontinued.
There’s a used 2016 one local to me but still listed at £5000 with no best offer option. Seems a bit of a stretch now given that the new one is not even £300 more.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #472
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatschmacher ➡️
There’s a used 2016 one local to me but still listed at £5000 with no best offer option. Seems a bit of a stretch now given that the new one is not even £300 more.
Be patient. Still in pre-order phase with the new one.
Not certain what will happen but you might as well wait and watch.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #473
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatschmacher ➡️
There’s a used 2016 one local to me but still listed at £5000 with no best offer option. Seems a bit of a stretch now given that the new one is not even £300 more.
Also the exchange rate is gonna make it very hard
Got to wait
Or Maybe buy an EU built synth
Lots of nice ones to consider
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #474
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demystify ➡️
It is tragic to fail to appreciate that these are fine instruments of art and creativity,
especially in an industry where artists survive on the ‘intangible value’ of their artistic offerings.
I love it. I would never have picked up on that irony.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #475
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatschmacher ➡️
There’s a used 2016 one local to me but still listed at £5000 with no best offer option. Seems a bit of a stretch now given that the new one is not even £300 more.
In at most 3 months it will likely be £4500 or £4750 new. There will be no delay. A re-issue will need to be significantly below that level to attract purchasers. Usually 60-70% of new price although there are changes to the new release which may make the prior re-issue at the lower end of that range. It would be crazy to pre-order one today unless you expect Moog to go bust within 3 months or you had no synths at all and it was the only one you wanted.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #476
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meriphew ➡️
I’m leaning towards ordering one, but I’m trying to find a U.S. dealer that will discount and who doesn’t charge sales tax.
That is my threshold, as well. I would like a 10% discount and no sales tax. That is my "order-point" right now.

I called PF and they told me no discount on this pre-order.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #477
Gear Nut
I bought a Poly D last year on the SW Black Friday sale. I never plugged it in until a couple of nights ago. I wanted to see if I thought this Minimoog Model D mono was going to give me something special over the "poly" clone of it.

Turns out I enjoy the Poly D more in mono mode than in poly mode. Plus I can hear some clicks that I am not sure are supposed to be there. Not a big issue (and not related to the "poly" aspect), but still bugs me. IE: even with all oscillators turned off you can hear clicks when you press the keys that aren't remedied by turning up the attack. I do really like the Chorus on the Poly D and overall I really like the sound. If the Moog sounds better it will be awesome.

I am pretty much an amateur but I think I will be able to appreciate what the Minimoog Model D will provide. It looks pretty and I will probably initially put it in my living area to play when I am inspired, like one would do with a piano.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #478
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh ➡️
If reissues have sold on Reverb for $6k could someone say this is underpriced?
Again, as I said before: No problem if it's selling for even $10,000 and people are buying it, more power to them. That doesn't mean it's not overpriced though. It's overpriced but people are still buying it (but it's overpriced). Something can sell like hotcakes and still be overpriced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh ➡️
Why do you think it’s overpriced?

Is there some formula for parts, labor , r &d that you personally think is fair?
Why is it overpriced? What is my formula? Well, I look at other synths:

       Oberheim OB-X8 | $5,000
Sequential Prophet-10 | $4,400
     Yamaha Montage 8 | $4,000
   Waldorf Iridium KB | $3,800
 Sequential Prophet-5 | $3,600
 Sequential Prophet-6 | $3,500
      Sequential OB-6 | $3,500
 Sequential Prophet X | $3,500
     Yamaha Montage 6 | $3,000
  Access Virus TI2 61 | $2,915
   Sequential Rev2-16 | $2,600
      Novation Summit | $2,300
     Yamaha MODX8+ 88 | $2,200
       Moog Matriarch | $2,200
  Sequential Pro 3 SE | $2,200
    Sequential Rev2-8 | $2,000
         Nord Lead A1 | $2,000
   Moog Subsequent 37 | $1,900
     Yamaha MODX7+ 76 | $1,700
     Korg Prologue 61 | $1,700
     Yamaha MODX6+ 61 | $1,500
     Moog Grandmother | $1,250
   Moog Subsequent 25 | $1,200


Sure, not all of them are strictly in the same category and also not all of them are fully analog. But it just gives you an idea how much synth $5,000 can actually get you. Sometimes I think people rationalize just about anything. Yes, Minimoog is really nice. Yes, it's going to sell. Yes, it's overpriced.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #479
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️
Again, as I said before: No problem if it's selling for even $10,000 and people are buying it, more power to them. That doesn't mean it's not overpriced though. It's overpriced but people are still buying it (but it's overpriced). Something can sell like hotcakes and still be overpriced.

Why is it overpriced? What is my formula? Well, I look at other synths:

                    Oberheim OB-X8 | $5,000
             Sequential Prophet-10 | $4,400
           Yamaha Montage 8 88-key | $4,000
          Waldorf Iridium Keyboard | $3,800
              Sequential Prophet-5 | $3,600
              Sequential Prophet-6 | $3,500
          Sequential Oberheim OB-6 | $3,500
       Sequential Prophet X 61-key | $3,500
           Yamaha Montage 6 61-key | $3,000
  Access Virus TI2 Keyboard 61-key | $2,915
        Sequential Prophet Rev2-16 | $2,600
   Novation Summit 61-key 16-voice | $2,300
 Yamaha MODX8+ 88 GHS-weighted Key | $2,200
                    Moog Matriarch | $2,200
               Sequential Pro 3 SE | $2,200
        Sequential Prophet Rev2-08 | $2,000
                      Nord Lead A1 | $2,000
                Moog Subsequent 37 | $1,900
Yamaha MODX7+ 76 Semi-weighted Key | $1,700
     Korg Prologue 61-key 16-voice | $1,700
Yamaha MODX6+ 61 Semi-weighted Key | $1,500
                  Moog Grandmother | $1,250
                Moog Subsequent 25 | $1,200


Sure, not all of them are strictly in the same category and also not all of them are fully analog. But it just gives you an idea how much synth $5,000 can actually get you. Sometimes I think people rationalize just about anything. Yes, Minimoog is really nice. Yes, it's going to sell. Yes, it's overpriced.
All fair points. You have figured out what value means to you.

There are other examples someone could put on your over/under priced list

For example you could look at vintage PPG Waves that sell for $20k+

Or high end audio outboard equipment - preamps / eq / compressors.

But I get what you are saying.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #480
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️
Why is it overpriced? What is my formula? Well, I look at other synths:
Sure, not all of them are strictly in the same category and also not all of them are fully analog. But it just gives you an idea how much synth $5,000 can actually get you. Sometimes I think people rationalize just about anything. Yes, Minimoog is really nice. Yes, it's going to sell. Yes, it's overpriced.
I think you could have made exactly the same argument for the 2016 and the synths that were available then and the prices they were going for then. And you can pretty much always make that argument for a Moog synth and many of the competitions' offerings with similar specs. I don't think it's meaningfully different this time... it's just more shocking with inflation. And yet, last time around Moog sold over 3000 reissues, and the price on the secondary market went UP when they were no longer available, so the market signal is backing them up. So far.
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 52769 views: 3980234
Avatar for Lewis Emblack
Lewis Emblack 5 minutes ago
replies: 8734 views: 721649
Avatar for A.J. Lazarus
A.J. Lazarus 5 hours ago
replies: 339 views: 23899
Avatar for robotecho
robotecho 3 days ago
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump