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OB-6 vs Diva - Blind Test
View Poll Results: Which is Diva?
Diva is A
120 Votes - 60.00%
Diva is B
80 Votes - 40.00%
Voters: 200. You may not vote on this poll

Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #511
Gear Addict
 
Toddskins's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
How is it a scam? If a manufacturer or developer makes something and tells you exactly what it is and you decide to buy it and you enjoy it, how is that a scam? It’s not like you’re telling old people that socialists are going to destroy America so you’d better buy gold and non-perishable food buckets.
Bad analogy, since that's not a scam either.
Old 3 days ago
  #512
Gear Maniac
I've just voted.

It's the DX7 in A isn't it?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #513
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
Here’s a test anyone can do. Make a standard osc sound where an envelop is the pitch mod. Space the oscillators an octave apart. Do it on an analog synth and then Diva. If you don’t hear the difference, you’ve got problems
OK, i want to learn, but because of the pandemic my access to analog synths is now cut off...
Can you upload an uncompressed/lossless audio example ?
Please.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #514
Gear Guru
 
SWAN808's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
Here’s a test anyone can do. Make a standard osc sound where an envelop is the pitch mod. Space the oscillators an octave apart. Do it on an analog synth and then Diva. If you don’t hear the difference, you’ve got problems. Especially high notes. Do something similar with filter FM. That’s where Diva falls short. Don’t get me wrong, you can still get good sounds out of it, but they just don’t have the rich upper harmonic content of the analog.
Ok make the sounds and post them.

Post the preset and we'll all see how close we can get.

Lets explore this claim properly.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #515
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
Here’s a test anyone can do. Make a standard osc sound where an envelop is the pitch mod. Space the oscillators an octave apart. Do it on an analog synth and then Diva. If you don’t hear the difference, you’ve got problems. Especially high notes. Do something similar with filter FM. That’s where Diva falls short. Don’t get me wrong, you can still get good sounds out of it, but they just don’t have the rich upper harmonic content of the analog.
If we randomly select an analog synth, then comparing it with randomly selected DIVA OSC, should they be different anyway? Also, if what you mean "rich upper harmonic" is a distortion from analog synth, there are tons of ways to add harmonics with plugins these days, and the best part about plugins is we can actually select our favorite one from many choices.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #516
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by momomel ➡️
If we randomly select an analog synth, then comparing it with randomly selected DIVA OSC, should they be different anyway? Also, if what you mean "rich upper harmonic" is a distortion from analog synth, there are tons of ways to add harmonics with plugins these days, and the best part about plugins is we can actually select our favorite one from many choices.
Honeslty... What buddy said about about seperating 2 osc with an octave can shows divas flaws easily. Yes you can add and tweak all you want. Thats what digital is for. To control how much "Dirt" or "cleanliness" you want in a mix. Its like hours of tweaking on a daw/vst or like 5 minutes on a hardware synth.

For me... I'll save the time. I dont want to sit there doing tons of processing. I know what sound i want and how to get it and this approach would take too long... Some of us have lives so to sit on a computer mastering a patch for days or whatever is basically stealing from work, school, or family life.

I love the idea of having vst's and all in the box but the approach needed to make them sound half decent is annoying.... Thats why i bought diva and repro because they are close to hardware but they still need tweaking so... If time and immediacy is an issue, get/use hardware. Also if you need/want all the nice textures in your sound then get the hardware. Digital really lacks the texture and movement of the sound.

Do remember. There are digital hardware synths that have tons of LFO's but in order to make the synth sound any good you would have to use atleast 2-3 LFO's. Its just the game. If you love digital and tweaking on your mouse and mapping knobs go have fun with it. I ****in hate it so... I use it as a last resort.

I would rather send audio through boxes and instruments to get a sound than add vst's/plugins and sit on a mouse all day with my wrist cramping up. Thats me. I gotta use my wrists for painting murals, digital VFX and other things.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #517
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by digital droe3 ➡️
Honeslty... What buddy said about about seperating 2 osc with an octave can shows divas flaws easily. Yes you can add and tweak all you want. Thats what digital is for. To control how much "Dirt" or "cleanliness" you want in a mix. Its like hours of tweaking on a daw/vst or like 5 minutes on a hardware synth.
It wouldn't take more than 30 seconds to add harmonics with plugins...
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #518
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by digital droe3 ➡️
Honeslty... What buddy said about about seperating 2 osc with an octave can shows divas flaws easily. Yes you can add and tweak all you want. Thats what digital is for. To control how much "Dirt" or "cleanliness" you want in a mix. Its like hours of tweaking on a daw/vst or like 5 minutes on a hardware synth.
It wouldn't take more than 30 seconds to add harmonics with plugins... I guess you probably just don't know which plugins are your favorite ones.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #519
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by momomel ➡️
It wouldn't take more than 30 seconds to add harmonics with plugins... I guess you probably just don't know which plugins are your favorite ones.
This "just add distortion bro, just add delay bro" is always so funny.

I mean it can help but it never adds up to the real thing
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #520
Gear Guru
 
SWAN808's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
you're arguing over something that hasn't been proved to exist at this point.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #521
Lives for gear
 
Dave_Ionic's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 ➡️
In this one - Diva was A again
Wow I called it again. I think I am so familiar with Dave’s synths and what not that I know their sound. Even though this is Dave doing Tom’s synths. It was indeed close though once again.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #522
Gear Guru
 
maisonvague's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 ➡️
Lets explore this claim properly.
Yeah, can someone who has both Diva and an analog synth please perform this test and upload the audio? I’m genuinely curious to hear the difference (which, as I understood, should be obvious).

Audio examples please. Otherwise I will dismiss this claim as just more blustering GS dribble and move on.
Old 2 days ago
  #523
Pip
Lives for gear
 
Pip's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Well in my case Diva made my buy an OB6 - still use both all the time. OB for the core sound, just what I want with the interface, Diva for secondary sounds, both fabulous imop.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #524
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by momomel ➡️
If we randomly select an analog synth, then comparing it with randomly selected DIVA OSC, should they be different anyway? Also, if what you mean "rich upper harmonic" is a distortion from analog synth, there are tons of ways to add harmonics with plugins these days, and the best part about plugins is we can actually select our favorite one from many choices.
What I’m talking about is an overall characteristic that supersedes all other purposely mimicked characteristics, so it really doesn’t matter what oscillators you use, as long as they sync.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #525
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt ➡️
OK, i want to learn, but because of the pandemic my access to analog synths is now cut off...
Can you upload an uncompressed/lossless audio example ?
Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 ➡️
Ok make the sounds and post them.

Post the preset and we'll all see how close we can get.

Lets explore this claim properly.
I’m not going to waste anymore time, as I’m not selling anything. You can easily do this yourself, and frankly you already know what I’m saying is correct. Good luck with your sales.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #526
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevizzles ➡️
This "just add distortion bro, just add delay bro" is always so funny.

I mean it can help but it never adds up to the real thing
Also, it’s not distortion, or at least not totally distortion. If you actually do this test (an analog synth isn’t needed for comparison) you’ll hear the aliasing too. I imagine that it’s that Diva is using some band limiting because if it calculated the sync effect properly you’d significantly up the CPU usage. Other more CPU heavy plugins do a much better job, like RePro, for instance. It’s not that U-He can’t add this to Diva (I hope they do!) it’s that they didn’t because of the situation with CPUs when they first launched it. I’ve been asking for an “Ultra Devine” mode. I hope they implement it at some point.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #527
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
What I’m talking about is an overall characteristic that supersedes all other purposely mimicked characteristics, so it really doesn’t matter what oscillators you use, as long as they sync.
Okay, thanks. I'll try it sometime myself.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #528
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 ➡️
you're arguing over something that hasn't been proved to exist at this point.
It’s OK, I think you’re a liar too. It’s literally a 2 minute task to make an oscillator sync patch, but you’re saying that if I don’t post it it “hasn’t been proven to exist.” Do yOuR Own reSEarCh.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #529
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague ➡️
Yeah, can someone who has both Diva and an analog synth please perform this test and upload the audio? I’m genuinely curious to hear the difference (which, as I understood, should be obvious).

Audio examples please. Otherwise I will dismiss this claim as just more blustering GS dribble and move on.
It honestly blows my mind that people keep thinking of increasingly abstruse hoops to jump through to “prove” this analog synth sounds different from a softsynth, as if we didn’t just have a blind test demonstrating that listeners can spot the difference with better-than-coin-flip (read: nonrandom) odds, on patches selected specifically for their ability to be matched closely in Diva. Moreover the 60:40 bias emerged early on in the poll and pretty much held constant until the results were posted.

You can say you don’t hear the difference, or that the difference doesn’t matter to you personally. But you can no longer say that there is no difference, that no one can hear it, or that no one cares.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #530
Gear Guru
 
SWAN808's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
I’m not going to waste anymore time, as I’m not selling anything. You can easily do this yourself, and frankly you already know what I’m saying is correct. Good luck with your sales.
I had various ideas about the failings that Diva had and in the end doing some work myself helped me challenge these beliefs. That's why doing it yourself is helpful IMO, not to mention it takes some effort to do it properly so I don't see why other people should make your point for you. Or maybe you just don't want to submit it to public scrutiny in case its wrong?

I don't actually know what you are saying is correct, because I never investigated this element. I'm not an aliasing freak who fusses about this - I tend to focus on sounds which I use to make music. Although I did already investigate the filter FM with another user here who decided to contribute in a constructive way. Audio attached. The reason why its good to investigate it properly is that it's often smaller than people think. In the case attached a guy on the thread came back with a closer version than I made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
It’s OK, I think you’re a liar too. It’s literally a 2 minute task to make an oscillator sync patch, but you’re saying that if I don’t post it it “hasn’t been proven to exist.” Do yOuR Own reSEarCh.
Now its oscillator sync? You didn't mention sync in the first post.

I've not seen any Diva examples specifically tying to elicit aliasing in the high registers so no its not been proven as far as I'm concerned. I was hoping you might attempt to prove your own point but it's easier to call me a liar lol. Solid effort and contribution.
Attached Files

Filter-FM-AB.wav (3.47 MB, 560 views)

Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #531
Gear Guru
 
maisonvague's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by locust_tree ➡️
You can say you don’t hear the difference, or that the difference doesn’t matter to you personally. But you can no longer say that there is no difference, that no one can hear it, or that no one cares.
I agree. Which is why I’m not saying that.

I was only hoping to hear some audio backing up the oscillator sync aliasing claim as I don’t own a copy of Diva. I suppose I could just download a demo copy and test it for myself. But it would have been nice to have some audio demonstrating what is allegedly an obvious short-coming in Diva.

I’ve uploaded hundreds of audio clips to GS over the years. Personally, I appreciate it when discussions include audio examples instead of just talk. Talk is cheap.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #532
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
I imagine that it’s that Diva is using some band limiting because if it calculated the sync effect properly you’d significantly up the CPU usage.
Zero-alias VA oscillator hard-sync was solved 15-20 years ago. It costs in CPU cycles roughly as much as osc it self. And you can do it without oversampling. Sweeping hardsynced osc with something like fast envelope will require oversampling, but 4x will be plenty enough (and you need 4x for decent filter anyhow). What might be off is that in analog synths hard-sync is not perfect, but simulation of this is not mindboggling task. Urs him self proved it when he went from generalist approach of Diva to specialist Repro. There are other things in Repro that eat cpu cycles (like, audio rate mod depth is deeper than Diva by order of magnitude, and osc self mod and filter were not trivial as well).

Edit: and, you really should have provided example when you have brought it up.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #533
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by recnsci ➡️
Zero-alias VA oscillator hard-sync was solved 15-20 years ago. It costs in CPU cycles roughly as much as osc it self. And you can do it without oversampling. Sweeping hardsynced osc with something like fast envelope will require oversampling, but 4x will be plenty enough (and you need 4x for decent filter anyhow). What might be off is that in analog synths hard-sync is not perfect, but simulation of this is not mindboggling task.
This is what I thought about OSC sync. It is not untrue that OSC sync tends to reveal digital signature of digital synths in general, but I have had a feeling that sync in analog synths is so imperfect that it is not still precisely simulated in digital synths.

BTW, aliasing is usually not an issue at all with all the digital synths I own, it is a part of nice character for me even if it is clearly audible. I personally do not pursue the sound of genuine analog synths any more. It's just boring and dated for me, but I know I'm a minority here.
Old 2 days ago
  #534
Lives for gear
 
Analogue Mastering's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Some analogue filter grit, (p10 + Zen delay) to move the goal posts a bit...
Now try that with Diva. Or Repro.
Attached Files

Zen_1001.mp3 (9.14 MB, 77 views)

Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #535
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by momomel ➡️
I have had a feeling that sync in analog synths is so imperfect that it is not still precisely simulated in digital synths.
Yes, but it's down to whether DSP developer is aware of the issue and willing to simulate it, not the limit of emulation technology. For a lot of years developers would use plain linear envelope, bend shapes a bit with low order polynomial and declare it's "analog envelope". Mostly because they did not know or care. And, how analog env works is dumb simple to replicate in DSP, it's 1st order low pass filter + very simple control logic. (simple test to check if envelope is really behaving like analog one: modulate sustain level with square LFO - with analog-alike you cant get instant level changes, changes will have the same shape as decay).

On the other hand, really detailed model of let's say transistor ladder, like Ebers-Moll model of transistors and every transistor with different model prams, that should nuke the cpu. Question is whether it is needed at all, not if you ask me.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #536
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague ➡️
Yeah, can someone who has both Diva and an analog synth please perform this test and upload the audio? I’m genuinely curious to hear the difference (which, as I understood, should be obvious).

Audio examples please. Otherwise I will dismiss this claim as just more blustering GS dribble and move on.
Set A - Octave Tuning
Set B - Hard Sync, Octave Tuning
Set C - Hard Sync, non-octave tuning
Set D - Octave Plus 4th tuning
Sec E - Octave Plus 4th tuning, pitched +two octaves
Set F - Hard Sync, non-octave tuning, pitched +two octaves

Pitch Envelope Descends Two Octaves
Attached Files

Set A.wav (3.03 MB, 438 views)

Set B.wav (3.03 MB, 441 views)

Set C.wav (3.03 MB, 438 views)

Set D.wav (3.03 MB, 432 views)

Set E.wav (3.03 MB, 440 views)

Set F.wav (3.03 MB, 453 views)

Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #537
Gear Guru
 
maisonvague's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBSoundSmith ➡️
Set A - Octave Tuning
Set B - Hard Sync, Octave Tuning
Set C - Hard Sync, non-octave tuning
Set D - Octave Plus 4th tuning
Sec E - Octave Plus 4th tuning, pitched +two octaves
Set F - Hard Sync, non-octave tuning, pitched +two octaves

Pitch Envelope Descends Two Octaves
Much appreciated!

Hmm… I’m not hearing any earth-shattering differences in these clips.

Set E has the most pronounced difference.

Both synths execute the sound acceptably.

My personal preference would be Synth B.

But that's what it would come down to: personal preference.

Certainly not a case of "Dude, get your ears checked" in my book.
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #538
Gear Guru
 
maisonvague's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering ➡️
Some analogue filter grit, (p10 + Zen delay) to move the goal posts a bit...
Now try that with Diva. Or Repro.
Nice sound!

As to whether or not Diva or Repro could pull-off such a sound, I wouldn’t know. I’ve never tried.

Basically, my feeling is this: if there is an analog sound I think is absolutely beyond emulation digitally, chances are some post-graduate student at IRCAM already achieved it years ago and I just haven’t heard it yet.
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #539
Lives for gear
 
Looneytune's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by momomel ➡️
If we randomly select an analog synth, then comparing it with randomly selected DIVA OSC, should they be different anyway? Also, if what you mean "rich upper harmonic" is a distortion from analog synth, there are tons of ways to add harmonics with plugins these days, and the best part about plugins is we can actually select our favorite one from many choices.
We can also select many in the analog domain also..

Plenty of choices here
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #540
Lives for gear
 
Tomás Mulcahy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague ➡️
Much appreciated!

Hmm… I’m not hearing any earth-shattering differences in these clips.

Set E has the most pronounced difference.

Both synths execute the sound acceptably.
Agreed although personally I slightly preferred Synth A. I guess Set E is supposed to show up aliasing? Impossible to tell really. Certainly nothing ugly in either example, but I slightly believe Synth B is the digital.

Does this mean the drivel will end?

Thank you @ KBSoundSmith !
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