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HELP! Please help me overcome my GAS for wavetable hardware. Can I achieve similar results with VST?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #31
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️


I'm starting to realise that my mistaken belief that 'Serum was the best that software had to offer' may have been prejudicing me against software.

Ehehe. I was listening to that OP demo of the M last night, after I'd enjoyed a tasty bowl of green vegetables, and the sounds were absolutely blowing my mind. Never heard anything like it. Incredibly high fidelity, rich tones. So complex, but also so clear and focused.
Heh - never too late to admit I changed my mind on something! The modwave really does have great presence.

I don't have Serum, but people do get good sounds out of it. Hive never quite clicked for me, but I have used it for some sounds - I prefer some of the other Uhe synths.

This captures some of this type of sound done nicely in soft synths. The sounds skip to the next a bit quickly. I do think Massive X sounds really good - I've used it more for techno sounds than this though


re: the M, this was the first part of the vid you posted above. This also has some great sounds. From chunky tones, to gritty edgy sounds, right through to 70s sound fx to just weirdly disconcerting. I think it's nto all sweet spot - but has some real organic life to be found.

Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #32
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
This captures some of this type of sound done nicely in soft synths. The sounds skip to the next a bit quickly. I do think Massive X sounds really good - I've used it more for techno sounds than this though
Gosh, I never knew Massive could sound this nice.

Everything I'm hearing from Hive 2 sounds incredible so far. I'd totally overlooked this synth until now.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
I'm listening to demos of Dune 3 on Youtube right now and it sounds fabulous.
Dune is a pretty unique synth. Unison engine. 8 layers. Good ModMatrix. Streamlined interface that lets you work fast and forwards.

But to mention that: the wavetable options are pretty basic. Waldorf is years ahead. But that is not what Dune is about.

What I meant before - I quickly commented via handy: the sound of a wavetable synth is mostly made by the wavetables and their quality/ies. You shouldn´t underestimate that. The M does not only have analog filters and all that but also high quality wavetables made by the market leaders who have decades of experience and the knowledge to make really complex and great sounding tables.

But every synth has its strenths and weaknesses and we all have a different focus, abilities and workflows - so I´d suggest to dive a little deeper and see what is most important for you.

For me Dune is my first choice because of the spectral complexity that you can generate with 8 layers and the unison engine. But maybe that´s different for you - althogh the sound in the video that you linked is just what I´d expect from Dune and not really from a Waldorf.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #34
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realtrance's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer ➡️
Go for it.

If it's not what it's cracked up to be, you should be able to sell it again easily (or even return it within the warranty period).

If it is all you've dreamt of, congrats.

I'd go for the M first, though.

In case of the Korg, there's the obligatory warning - I really like Korg synths. I've got a TR rack here. Its effects are gorgeous. They're also a big part of the sound; switch them off and things get quite a bit less impressive all of a sudden.


There's an important one missing from this list, and it's https://vital.audio/ .


In order to level the playing field, you're going to need to make a one-to-one comparison. That means:

- choose the lowest common denominator - if the plugin has 3 oscillators and the hardware has 2, then the plugin should use 2
- don't use features that are available on one but not the other; i.e. Serum's unison trick doesn't exist in the hardware
- very important: use the same wavetables
- use the same processing and recreate the actual patches. This is much more difficult with a wavetable synth than with a Minimoog or Prophet 5 because there are so many more timbral possibilities.

In the Waldorf M example I'm hearing panning effects. The VCA is stereo so I suspect that half of the voices are routed left and the other half (with different modulation, if it's voice-dependent) is routed right. This is quite different from taking an oscillator, running it through a single filter, and then throwing a chorus effect on top.

Serum handles the panning on the oscillator level; I assume but don't know for certain that the whole path is stereo. Massive has dual filters but only a single amp/pan section. Vital also handles it on the oscillator level, but it offers a lot more stereo options - the LFO can be stereo.

An advantage in that sense for analog filters is that they have to be calibrated. The filter per voice is not an identical clone (but it's very close!). So, with plugins, you have to explicitly model this behavior; and as with all modeling things, the trick is to go for perfection first and then build in the possibility to make things imperfect, rather than to force imperfection from the start.

The Modal synths for instance have several voices panned hard left and hard right, to maximize the available headroom. The expansion board allows this to be undone again because it's not always practical. Since plugins don't have to care about noise in that sense and crunch 64-bits numbers, it's not necessary there, so it's again something you have to explicitly model.

Last but not least: the wavetables in the M are likely to be less complex than the ones you'll find in most wavetable synths. This is not a knock on the M. The practical advantage here is in playability and musical results. Simpler tables are more useful in a lot of cases. Serum's got some really gnarly stuff that's only useful in very specific cases.
Wouldn’t disagree with a word; loving the Modwave, though!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #35
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realtrance's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️





I'm starting to realise that my mistaken belief that 'Serum was the best that software had to offer' may have been prejudicing me against software.

Now I'm hearing Dune 3 and also Hive 2 (not sure if the latter was yet mentioned in this thread) I'm very much more optimistic that I could live without hardware for this.

The first patch here is nothing special, but there are some real nice ones in the vid:





Ehehe. I was listening to that OP demo of the M last night, after I'd enjoyed a tasty bowl of green vegetables, and the sounds were absolutely blowing my mind. Never heard anything like it. Incredibly high fidelity, rich tones. So complex, but also so clear and focused.
If you’re happy with software, don’t forget Pigments! It’s at 3.0 now and is another amazing soft synth with a wavetable engine.

The ways wavetable can be enjoyed are quite varied, and unique for each instrument. I find Serum a little clinical sounding myself, but that’s in part because it’s meant to be used within a DAW software environment to supplement its sound.

Thing about both the M and Modwave is that they are much more self-contained. The Modwave does have more of that delicacy people love in the Prologue, and Minilogue for that matter - but if your main goal isn’t American classic fat analogue, that’s actually a plus, not a minus.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #36
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
>>>>

3.43:

>>>>

Same patch, from 6.15 here:

Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #37
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by romplix ➡️
But to mention that: the wavetable options are pretty basic. Waldorf is years ahead. But that is not what Dune is about.
From what I'm hearing so far, in terms of the timbres / style of the sounds, I feel the Dune pushes slightly towards the Wavestate... Perhaps somewhere in between the Modwave and the Wavestate.

Is there any substance to this idea?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #38
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance ➡️
If you’re happy with software, don’t forget Pigments! It’s at 3.0 now and is another amazing soft synth with a wavetable engine.
I keep looking for Pigments demo videos. What I'm hearing sounds very decent, but it's not ripping my socks off and licking my toes.

Can you point to any examples of Pigments doing pads anything like the ones in the OP?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #39
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
From all the software demos I've heard so far, I feel like Hive is by far the best, richest sounding.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #40
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realtrance's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
From what I'm hearing so far, in terms of the timbres / style of the sounds, I feel the Dune pushes slightly towards the Wavestate... Perhaps somewhere in between the Modwave and the Wavestate.

Is there any substance to this idea?
Well... just my opinion here: Wavestate is wave sequencing, not wavetable modulation. But the basic principle is the same: you are moving thru a varied spectrum of waveforms -- be they the small samples that make up each wave of a wavetable, or the larger samples that make up each part of a wave-sequenced sound -- to produce a modulation of timbre.

Some synths, like Dune in software (which I'm not familiar with) and Virus TI and Summit in hardware, may also _use_ wavetables but in a pretty different way. The wavetable is basically "read" and then interpolated into a particular continuous waveform that is then itself the oscillator. You are not sweeping through a wavetable, or scanning through a sequence of wavs, to get the characteristics of the oscillator. It operates more like a typical subtractive synth oscillator, with modulation possibilities which are typical -- whether shallow or deep -- in those.

I kind of assume, knowing who you are and your background, that this stuff should in practice be very clear to you! I hope I'm not misrepresenting Dune here, as it's the one I'm least familiar with (also don't know Vital).

It's one thing to understand it all in theory, though, as I have learned over the years; it's another to play in detail with the results of any particular configuration.

Back in '97, got an MWXT (rack) which I still have to this day; figured it was my be-all and end-all wavetable synth.

Well, it turned out, no. The Waldorf Q was an interesting Waldorf synth as well, even though it was not primarily a wavetable synth. It has the 8-stage envelopes, though, which is a particular kind of modulation capability that applies beyond wavetable, and takes some good thought to really make use of.

Then, in some ways, the V-Synth, though not a wavetable synth at all, nevertheless has principles of oscillator "construction" which align with the kind of thinking one does with a wavetable synth. Yeah. Though its oscillators are either VA or sample-based in origin, the manipulation of the samples, and interweaving of them with digital oscillators, was its own, "complex oscillator" (term goes back to Buchla) thing.

It all comes down to where you want to originate the complexity and quality of the sound generator. Do you rely on it entirely as an impulse of sonic spectrum which is then shaped subsequently by modulation and filtering? Or do you make the oscillator itself capable of modulation and change through active, dynamic manipulation of playing, in which case you're offloading a lot of what you're relying on filters to do to the oscillator itself.

That kind of dichotomy goes back to Moog and ARP ("East Coast" synths, since both engineers were from New England/New York, my original stomping grounds) vs. Morton Subotnick and Don Buchla ("West Coast" because Subotnick and Buchla were trying to get away, in 60's Hippie Style, from the conventions of music making that had developed up until then. Not like there weren't those like John Cage and many others of that time on the East Coast of the US who weren't also doing the same, though! The story is a typical oversimplification).

Anyways, Wavetable, as originated by Waldorf, is very much in between, relying upon both oscillator manipulation through digital waveforms and filtering and envelopes. That heritage of wavetable synthesis has evolved ever since the Wave.

So in my mind, I abstract all the elements -- as you have through Reaktor Blocks, if I'm remembering Korrectly -- and then enjoy investigating the combinatorial possibilities inherent in all the different ways of putting together and manipulating those elements.

Hence I could justify the Quantum to myself, even after having a range of previous wavetable synths both in hardware and software, simply because, like the V-Synth, it's made all of those many pieces far more both interchangeable and integratable than any other synth I've used. The ModWave does much of the same.

The M, for me, is less of an appeal because at root, like the old analogues, and the new Take5, it's a simple synth. It gets its timbral uniqueness out of this relative simplicity, and a lot of that can be lost in more complex synths, especially wavetable synths.

Just my thoughts, hope it's some kind of answer to your question.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #41
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance ➡️
Just my thoughts, hope it's some kind of answer to your question.
Thanks!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #42
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
>

Vital does actually sound really very good.

I guess I should grab that, seeing as it's free.



Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #43
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
From all the software demos I've heard so far, I feel like Hive is by far the best, richest sounding.
Richest sounding - or one that gives these clean almost crystalline pads your after?

I think the Massive X sounds best (maybe from 5:45, around there) - BUT - everywhere they get close to the sound you are referencing in the Hive video, they just have a bit too much modulation or sweep away from that sound too quickly.

I think most will get you there especially if you layer it up like the part in Dune demo you pointed out. warm pad, glassy pad, sizzly/wind atmosphere.

You can at least demo all the software fairly easily.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #44
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
Richest sounding - or one that gives these clean almost crystalline pads your after?
Richest sounding.

It just generally has this warm quality that form me is emotive and it also has this 3D enveloping quality that feels like it's surrounding me, rather than just 2D in front of me.
I guess a lot of that comes from the internal filters and reverb. But whatever is is, it's sounds like the business.

I wouldn't describe it as clean or crystalline - more soft and furry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
everywhere they get close to the sound you are referencing in the Hive video, they just have a bit too much modulation or sweep away from that sound too quickly.
I perhaps put too much emphasis on that M9 Clouds patch... It's not necessarily the sound I want, per se. It was just nice sounding and impressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
I think most will get you there especially if you layer it up like the part in Dune demo you pointed out. warm pad, glassy pad, sizzly/wind atmosphere.

You can at least demo all the software fairly easily.
Yeah. After this thread, I'm starting to think I can live with software for now!

I am definitely going to grab Vital. I think Hive 2 is seeming a likely purchase at this point.

I have Massive (OG regular), but might consider upgrading my Komplete to the current iteration.

Dune is a definite contender for a purchase.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #45
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draig's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
Ehehe. I was listening to that OP demo of the M last night, after I'd enjoyed a tasty bowl of green vegetables, and the sounds were absolutely blowing my mind. Never heard anything like it. Incredibly high fidelity, rich tones. So complex, but also so clear and focused.
Yeah, the M is freakin awesome! Listening to those audio demos made me order one immediately and those demos set very high expectations. Having the M for 3+ weeks now, it has exceeded those expectations!

And those audio demos are without FX! I've got maybe 8 software wavetable synths and none of them sound like the M. Hive is my favorite wavetable softsynth and it sounds great in its own way, but it will not scratch the M itch.

One of the things that is hinted at from watching the audio demos but is really striking when making sounds on the M itself is how effortless it is to make gorgeous sounds. I'm not really remembering a moment when I came across a bad sound with the M... just more or less interesting ones. It never sounds digital shrill or brittle like wavetable synths can. I've been making these soft pads and they are just 2 osc's into a filter and not a lot of modulation and still they sound so rich and nuanced.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #46
Gear Nut
 
Have you tried Zebralette? It's free.

I don't know if it qualifies as wavetable but to me it has some of that sparkling, digital PPG sound. Last time I played with it I didn't like it, but now I realize most of the presets have annoying delay settings glopped on. Disable the delay and they become playable.

Also the release time is way to high on a lot of the presets.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #47
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
Cool. Thanks.

I'm a bit creeped out by subscription software and I assume even the free version regularly makes secret communications from my computer to the developer?
Nope. It has been open sourced, even, so you can check for yourself: https://github.com/mtytel/vital

Vital needs the internet for authorization (like NI software does) and for when you use text to speech. The subscription model works as rent to own, just like Serum. You can also pay for the full version at once, or upgrade the paid version later if desired.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #48
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer ➡️
Nope. It has been open sourced, even, so you can check for yourself: https://github.com/mtytel/vital

Vital needs the internet for authorization (like NI software does) and for when you use text to speech. The subscription model works as rent to own, just like Serum. You can also pay for the full version at once, or upgrade the paid version later if desired.
So cool.

I don't see the 'outright purchase' option on the website... How much is it?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #49
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by draig ➡️
the M is freakin awesome!
Ughh, you've gone and destroyed my hopes!

[Puts bass guitars on sale]
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #50
Moderator
 
Reptil's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
Oooof, the final sound, after 6 minutes:

Beautiful. I'm yet to hear a sound of this quality come out of Serum.
yes that sounds very, very good. but I'm cautious, to compare that 1:1, because this is obviously a finished, mixed, mastered demo. with reverb sprinkled on like magic dust, and most of the (admittedly lesser sounding) Microfreak demos are (what I've heard) raw sounds of ppl. chucking in all kinds of audio to see what it poops out.

Waldorf M solid choice. It sounds very good in person.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #51
Gear Head
 
QuiRobinez's Avatar
 
if you are looking for rich ambient pads then i think that a korg wavestate is a much better choice then a wavetable synthesizer.

I have the modwave and the wavestate and lot's of vst's, but what the wavestate can do i can't do in any of my vsts. The sounds of the modwave can be achieved in wavetable vsts.

Personally i think serum is a rather easy to understand vst where you can easely get nice sounding results, however it's also quite dated. For wavetable synthesis nowadays i mostly use arturia pigments 3. What that synth can do is absolutely insane, it's also much more complicated then the other vsts once you really dive into it. But it's a real powerhouse.

But when i create my ambient songs and albums then most of the time i use the korg wavestate (and sometimes spectrasonics omnisphere).

As an example, here is a one hour album i created with my own presets on the korg wavestate. It's entirely made with the korg wavestate, so every sound you hear is comming from the korg wavestate. This is done by wavesequencing which is a rather different concept than wavetable scanning. But the wavestate is really strong at that with the motion lanes.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #52
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuiRobinez ➡️
if you are looking for rich ambient pads then i think that a korg wavestate is a much better choice then a wavetable synthesizer.
Really interesting insight.

I'm listening to your video now and it sounds stellar.

I had been mistakenly thinking the Wavestate to be more for rhythmic, pulsed layers, rather than these silky smooth pads.

Food for thought!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #53
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jags's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Interesting that no one's mentioned the Modal Argon8. Many feel that it is more "organic" sounding compared to the Modwave or Hydrasynth. I just bought a mint used 3 octave keyboard version for under $600. Check it out!!





Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #54
Gear Head
 
QuiRobinez's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
Really interesting insight.

I'm listening to your video now and it sounds stellar.

I had been mistakenly thinking the Wavestate to be more for rhythmic, pulsed layers, rather than these silky smooth pads.

Food for thought!
i can imagine that you think that, and it's true, the wavestate has lots of possibilities to create rythmic kind of sounds, but you have four layers and each layer can be set to rythmic or crossfading type of sounds.

Basically in the wavestate you are creating your own sound sources, you can use the internal rom sounds for that or add your own samples to them, you can combine 64 samples per sound source and each sample you can determine how long it should play and how it's crossfading (or not) in to the next sample.

On top of that you can modulate almost everything (just like the modwave which can also do this) and that way you can create almost any moving sound you can think off.

The modwave is a totally different concept, there you have single cycle waves where you can scan through to create those moving sounds. It can give you also really rich results, but for ambient i prefer wavesequencing.

There are lots of examples on my youtube channel of both synths if you are interested in those kind of sounds.

The rich movements are done with LFO's, envelopes and much more importantly the motion sequencers on the wavestate (or modwave).

The motion sequencers from korg are very powerfull, also you can trigger LFO's, envelopes, motions, sample or wavetable positions based on polymeters, polyrythms, random values, sequencer lanes, etc. It's goes very deep once you dive into it.

For instance this example i created is created entirely with randomized modulation. I start this sound with one note and then everytime the result is completely different and the ambient drone will play randomized patterns for hours. But you can control the output by assigning scales to those patterns, so it will be always musically correct even if the notes and timing are completely random.

I think this shows the power of the wavestate and modwave modulation motion sequencers, because it's all done in just one synth without the need of extra hardware or software. I've added some extra text info how i did it in the motion sequencer.




but the modwave also has some very interesting features, like you can use wavetables as modulators for AM synthesis or ringmod on your own sound sources. In this video i show an example of that on the modwave
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #55
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jags ➡️
Interesting that no one's mentioned the Modal Argon8. Many feel that it is more "organic" sounding compared to the Modwave or Hydrasynth.
I had checked it out a lot last week and pretty much written it off. I just don't think it has that same depth as even the Modwave.

This video you posted is the best I've heard of it so far.

Yet I feel the Modwave sounds significantly better... So if I was going to find €600 for an Argon8 then I'd rather chuck in another €200 for the Modwave.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #56
Lives for gear
 
jags's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
I had checked it out a lot last week and pretty much written it off. I just don't think it has that same depth as even the Modwave.

This video you posted is the best I've heard of it so far.

Yet I feel the Modwave sounds significantly better... So if I was going to find €600 for an Argon8 then I'd rather chuck in another €200 for the Modwave.
I actually purchased the Argon8 specifically NOT to get those ambient sounds you are looking for! I purchased it to get more lead, melodic, and arpeggiator sounds like you hear in the demo below. It's great to have choices though!!



Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #57
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuiRobinez ➡️

There are lots of examples on my youtube channel of both synths if you are interested in those kind of sounds.
I've just been, again, checking all the videos of 'Wavestate pads' on Youtube. I'm not ever hearing that ineffable magic I'm seeking.
Then I hit play on your Modwave video and there it is, right from the get-go.

I wish a Wavestate would satisfy me, as I could grab a used one today. But, alas, I'm quite sure it's not the sound I'm after on this particular mission (though it's still a great synth and I would quite like to grab one, one day, once used prices fall).

Your Wavestate video is the best I've heard from the Wavestate. I especially like 'The Return'... That's actually in a similar ballpark to what I'm seeking. Close. But there's just an extra, indescribable magic to the Modwave.

What did you use to create the visuals on your album? Is it a visual synthesiser? Looks good.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #58
Gear Head
 
QuiRobinez's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
I've just been, again, checking all the videos of 'Wavestate pads' on Youtube. I'm not ever hearing that ineffable magic I'm seeking.
Then I hit play on your Modwave video and there it is, right from the get-go.

Your Wavestate video is the best I've heard from the Wavestate. I especially like 'The Return'... That's actually in a similar ballpark to what I'm seeking. Close. But there's just an extra, indescribable magic to the Modwave.

What did you use to create the visuals on your album? Is it a visual synthesiser? Looks good.
i've used milkdrop from winamp to create the visuals.

Techniques used:
well if you are focusing on the modwave, then let's look at some things the modwave can do and the wavestate can't do. In this example i created a wavetable of my name and added a typical pad sound beneath it in the modwave. Because you have the possibilities of wavescanning on the modwave i can select the start position in the wavetable and the speed it runs through the wavetable on top of that sound.

My goal was to recreate the atmosphere that Jean Michel Jarre had in his incredible album: Zoolook.

The modwave could easely do this with these techniques.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #59
Lives for gear
 
Pigments is very nice to use. Vital I have looked at but not used seriously (... yet).
Argon & Cobalt sound great and have considerable depths, and assuming the Korg Wave's are built like Opsix, FAR better quality. But I am probably biased owning a 002 ...
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #60
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyB ➡️
Argon & Cobalt sound great and have considerable depths, and assuming the Korg Wave's are built like Opsix, FAR better quality. But I am probably biased owning a 002 ...
I think you're saying that the build quality is better on the Modals than the recent Korgs... That may well be the case, but [assuming the thing is not crumbling to pieces] I place a far, far greater weight on the sound quality than the build quality.

From all the demos I've heard, [at least for the timbres I'm interested in] the Modwave seems to trounce the Argon8.
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