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Limitations of the Past = Better Music?
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #541
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by NawwwwwSun ➡️
Musical innovation used to be so free flowing that someone like Cat Stevens could do this in 1977. That’s simply incredible.

In 2021 even those few people TRYING to push innovation are failing at it.
That's pretty cool - hadn't heard it before. Thanks for sharing.

just read this on the production.

https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.co...nut-key-tracks

Sounds fairly modern, but also a bit 1980s detroit as well.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
That's pretty cool - hadn't heard it before. Thanks for sharing.

just read this on the production.

https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.co...nut-key-tracks

Sounds fairly modern, but also a bit 1980s detroit as well.
I hadn’t read this. But it’s really interesting what they say about it in the context of this thread. Paraphrasing here but it’s essentially “we sat down and messed around with this ****ty technology until it sounded cool”. Ah, it’s like my entire theory was just seconded lol
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #543
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
My basic point is, if your music is strong, it really doesn’t need to sound perfect. Most people are very forgiving this way. I also see acts like Deadmau5 that have great sounding albums of very mediocre music, so there are fans of that as well.
What is this thread coming to? I've defended Ed Sheeran, Billie Eilish and now deadmau5!

I think to be fair to deadmau5, and I don't like everything of his, but he's been pretty prolific and really has a great body of work. He's made some really nicely crafted tunes as well as some absolute bangers.

edit: it's mainly for the club...





Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #544
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zerocrossing's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
What is this thread coming to? I've defended Ed Sheeran, Billie Eilish and now deadmau5!

I think to be fair to deadmau5, and I don't like everything of his, but he's been pretty prolific and really has a great body of work. He's made some really nicely crafted tunes as well as some absolute bangers.

edit: it's mainly for the club...





Every time I listen to a track posted in defense of Deadmau5, I’ve been really disappointed. I think that music makes sense in a club, but doesn’t fair well in the wild. There’s a lot of music that I consider that way. If I’m in Hawaii and I hear some awesome slack ukulele, I’m in love. Number of times I’d play that artist’s music at home? Zero. Same with reggae. Hell, I’ll even stop to take in a country act at a state fair, but turn off the radio if that band’s music gets played. I think context has an overlooked role in how music is perceived.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #545
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
I think context has an overlooked role in how music is perceived.
Definitely it does, and is perhaps why some aren't able to 'get' some of the more modern music.

I'm fairly happy to listen to club music at home - though usually not too banging...

For some club stuff that might translate better at home:

Kompact Total 19



Kompact Total 19 Full YouTube Playlist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsQj...kNQFfQVoBb0UbA
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #546
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Bignatius's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
Every time I listen to a track posted in defense of Deadmau5, I’ve been really disappointed.
Don't watch his "master class" then.

It's anything but impressive.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #547
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steelyfan's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
What is this thread coming to? I've defended Ed Sheeran, Billie Eilish and now deadmau5!

I think to be fair to deadmau5, and I don't like everything of his, but he's been pretty prolific and really has a great body of work. He's made some really nicely crafted tunes as well as some absolute bangers.

edit: it's mainly for the club...





I actually like some of D5’s music. It’s kinda interesting, some of it sounds like Rick Rubin producing some of it but in Steely Dan’s studio. It’s like Rick Rubin producing Weather Report.

“Y’all keep it simple, let the sounds tell the story, no need to go off so much. Let the grooves breath... no soloing, it’s the melody that’ll hit the consumer.”

Haha. No, I dig it. My buddy has a lot of his Vinyl, it sounds pretty posh through his system. It’s good stuff. Whether it’s designed for the club or the living room, there’s plenty of good stuff in there. Imo, not everything has to be breathtaking or leading to the new standard, it just needs to be good, and enjoyable to listen to.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #548
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Seems to me we are confusing great talents with average ones. Today's gear and software has vastly lowered the bar so you no longer need to be an extremely gifted musician to deliver a great work.

TLDR; The talent requirement was much higher in the past.
Old 4 days ago
  #549
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🎧 5 years
@ marcgood while I don't concede to much of what passes for music nowadays, "gifted" is a loaded term as much as "talent" is and cultural environs play(ed) a huge and overlooked role in what and who eventually became elevated in popular culture. Best example(s) of this are Stevie, Whitney, etc. and I don't think they'd be appreciated in today's context much less would have the musical education that they did get in the era(s) they grew up in.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #550
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zerocrossing's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcgood ➡️
Seems to me we are confusing great talents with average ones. Today's gear and software has vastly lowered the bar so you no longer need to be an extremely gifted musician to deliver a great work.

TLDR; The talent requirement was much higher in the past.
I totally disagree. Have a listen to Frank Sinatra. I mean a serious critical listen. Not a great singer. Madonna. Mediocre voice. Eminem. Couldn’t write a nice phrase if he tried. Bruce Springsteen. Fair singer, mediocre guitarist that tricked people from south New Jersey into thinking they weren’t 50 miles from Manhattan.

Meanwhile, I have lost track of how many truly great acts I’ve seen that never went anywhere. Becoming famous takes a lot more than talent, though talent can help. Marketing and perseverance is probably the most important thing. I like to tell the story of how a band I led was doing OK, until we hired a singer who had a ton of friends. We packed the club on her first night and it didn’t let up until she quit to form her own band. Her audience followed her, even though, IMO, her music was terrible. Kind of like the Brady 6 trying to be the Grateful Dead. I had this crazy idea that since the music wasn’t really changing much that at least some of her audience would stick with us, but it didn’t happen.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #551
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
I totally disagree. Have a listen to Frank Sinatra. I mean a serious critical listen. Not a great singer. Madonna. Mediocre voice. Eminem. Couldn’t write a nice phrase if he tried. Bruce Springsteen. Fair singer, mediocre guitarist that tricked people from south New Jersey into thinking they weren’t 50 miles from Manhattan.

Meanwhile, I have lost track of how many truly great acts I’ve seen that never went anywhere. Becoming famous takes a lot more than talent, though talent can help. Marketing and perseverance is probably the most important thing. I like to tell the story of how a band I led was doing OK, until we hired a singer who had a ton of friends. We packed the club on her first night and it didn’t let up until she quit to form her own band. Her audience followed her, even though, IMO, her music was terrible. Kind of like the Brady 6 trying to be the Grateful Dead. I had this crazy idea that since the music wasn’t really changing much that at least some of her audience would stick with us, but it didn’t happen.
Anyone can cherry pick. But I do agree Sinatra is totally over rated.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #552
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zerocrossing's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcgood ➡️
Anyone can cherry pick. But I do agree Sinatra is totally over rated.
That’s my point. Everyone is cherry picking to make their desired point. I can point out bad music from every era just as easily as I can point out great music from every era. Whether or not you believe that the music I think is great is of course subjective. What’s funny is that adults today are earnestly making the point that old music is inherently better as if they forgot that adults from their childhood were also saying the exact same thing. Must be some sort of built in defense mechanism.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
Marketing and perseverance is probably the most important thing.
That's a relevant point that I can relate to.

Perseverance is what matters the most, over anything else, it means time, and most of the people nowadays can't afford to sacrifice decades of time to make it, but that's how you do it unfortunately, in my opinion there's no other way or shortcut, assuming you're an unknown average self made artist.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #554
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NawwwwwSun's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
That’s my point. Everyone is cherry picking to make their desired point. I can point out bad music from every era just as easily as I can point out great music from every era. Whether or not you believe that the music I think is great is of course subjective. What’s funny is that adults today are earnestly making the point that old music is inherently better as if they forgot that adults from their childhood were also saying the exact same thing. Must be some sort of built in defense mechanism.
This is the most boring and incorrect **** and you and others keep trotting it out.

Those conservative people who can’t understand avant garde were wrong.

I understand avant garde, I hate conservatism. THIS is why I think modern music is bad.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #555
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jags's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
I hopefully think the topic of this thread has been thoroughly debunked. People then and still now, clearly make good music with limited gear and setups. What constitutes limitations may have changed.
Thank you for your comments as you make some very good points. It's not really a matter of "debunking" the topic of this thread. The topic was posed as a question and not a statement of fact. The thread was designed to question if limitations of the past made for better music. This means that we are also looking for other reasons, and many other reasons have been successfully presented and argued here. It's just not one thing , but many things that made some and not all music of the past better. And not one thing , but many things that made some and not all music of the present worse. And vice versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
In terms of the music appreciation, sadly I think it is a few people here who allowed themselves to become content with the music of their youth, and now either
- write off many artists just because the genre was done earlier, and miss many great artists and albums because of that
- just don't get where the music has gone since then e.g. club influenced stuff
and sadly....
- haven't really listened to the many great examples of recent (ish) (20 yrs) music that people have posted in this thread...
Yes this may be true for some people, but I believe that those of us here that have engaged in this conversation, are looking to expand their understanding of music that's out there now. I know I am, and that's why I started this thread. We are not all "stuck" in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
It would be interesting to come back to this in six months and see if any of these people have actually made an effort to catch up and try to understand the vast amount of music that has been enjoyed since the 80s... I expect they would uncover some absolute treasures and gain many new favourites if they were to do this.
I have already discovered some absolute treasures that were presented through this thread. I again thank everyone that has shared what they consider to be "good" music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
No one has to like it all. But anyone saying good music stopped at such and such a time - well clearly they are wrong and they are missing out.
This is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leras ➡️
So the moral of the story: Be open minded and continue to look for new music as there is so much to be enjoyed.
Yes indeed!!! You just have to look a lot harder to uncover it buried under all the garbage!!

Thanks!!
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #556
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jags's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcgood ➡️
Seems to me we are confusing great talents with average ones. Today's gear and software has vastly lowered the bar so you no longer need to be an extremely gifted musician to deliver a great work.

TLDR; The talent requirement was much higher in the past.
Good point. Thanks!

Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #557
Lives for gear
 
jags's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
I totally disagree. Have a listen to Frank Sinatra. I mean a serious critical listen. Not a great singer. Madonna. Mediocre voice. Eminem. Couldn’t write a nice phrase if he tried. Bruce Springsteen. Fair singer, mediocre guitarist that tricked people from south New Jersey into thinking they weren’t 50 miles from Manhattan.

Meanwhile, I have lost track of how many truly great acts I’ve seen that never went anywhere. Becoming famous takes a lot more than talent, though talent can help. Marketing and perseverance is probably the most important thing. I like to tell the story of how a band I led was doing OK, until we hired a singer who had a ton of friends. We packed the club on her first night and it didn’t let up until she quit to form her own band. Her audience followed her, even though, IMO, her music was terrible. Kind of like the Brady 6 trying to be the Grateful Dead. I had this crazy idea that since the music wasn’t really changing much that at least some of her audience would stick with us, but it didn’t happen.
Yep!! It's not what you know but who you know that's most important!

Thanks!!
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #558
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crufty's Avatar
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame ➡️
Best example(s) of this are Stevie, Whitney, etc
For sure. But maybe it is easier too.

Hard to know. We are in a moment where our reflection shines forward yet away from us. Those in our future will look back and hopefully we are there to see what they see.

We do live in an era, in the us, where we not just undervalue our elders, we have no place for them. And that includes Stevie and Whitney. So far the arts haven’t … degraded. But that is the danger - a dark reflection as old lessons get relearned.

But - each tik tok challenge, each Instagram song, each you tube tutorial … that is the flame and spark of genius bursting on.

I do feel like there is incredible music made today. I am as hopeful as I have ever been.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #559
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jags's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty ➡️
For sure. But maybe it is easier too.

Hard to know. We are in a moment where our reflection shines forward yet away from us. Those in our future will look back and hopefully we are there to see what they see.

We do live in an era, in the us, where we not just undervalue our elders, we have no place for them. And that includes Stevie and Whitney. So far the arts haven’t … degraded. But that is the danger - a dark reflection as old lessons get relearned.

But - each tik tok challenge, each Instagram song, each you tube tutorial … that is the flame and spark of genius bursting on.

I do feel like there is incredible music made today. I am as hopeful as I have ever been.
Thanks for sharing your optimism!! I just wish I could be as optimistic as you are.

Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #560
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
I totally disagree. Have a listen to Frank Sinatra. I mean a serious critical listen. Not a great singer. Madonna. Mediocre voice. Eminem. Couldn’t write a nice phrase if he tried. Bruce Springsteen. Fair singer, mediocre guitarist that tricked people from south New Jersey into thinking they weren’t 50 miles from Manhattan.
Sinatra was a great singer, because there is more to singing than singing notes. Did he have a great voice? No. But he could sing in tune and had impeccable timing and phrasing. Thats why he was a great singer. More importantly a great jazz singer.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #561
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jags ➡️
Yep!! It's not what you know but who you know that's most important!

Thanks!!
Are you a Gearspace bot designed to make conversation more civil and increase time on the site for advertisers?
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #562
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️
just a guess, but i'm assuming that most anyone playing that sort of "straight/traditional" music would have always seen something like that as "beneath them" and not given it any consideration. who knows. what would Adam Neely or Rick Beato think of them? are there any "musician reacts to Autechre" videos on youtube?

not that they should have any trouble with something as straightforward as this:



...but a lot of their stuff might sound a bit too foreign for many people. (??) we're seeing it here already.
The really, really good musicians I’ve known have always had extremely varied tastes in music and none of them have been the “its beneath me” types. I’m not saying those people don’t exist but the dudes in Snarky Puppy that I’ve followed on social media, etc. have never struck me as that type at all. Possible? Sure. I don’t know them personally. But I’d be surprised knowing what I do know.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #563
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignatius ➡️
Don't watch his "master class" then.

It's anything but impressive.
Why would he give away all of his secrets?
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #564
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zerocrossing's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight ➡️
Sinatra was a great singer, because there is more to singing than singing notes. Did he have a great voice? No. But he could sing in tune and had impeccable timing and phrasing. Thats why he was a great singer. More importantly a great jazz singer.
Sinatra is more often flat than not. It annoys the hell out of me. Oddly, I’m his 7th cousin. Must explain my crappy voice. What I will say is that he was a good entertainer and got great bands to back him.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #565
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jags's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight ➡️
Sinatra was a great singer, because there is more to singing than singing notes. Did he have a great voice? No. But he could sing in tune and had impeccable timing and phrasing. Thats why he was a great singer. More importantly a great jazz singer.
And more important than all of that is that he was a great "ENTERTAINER". There is a difference.

There are a lot of people that may be mediocre singers/musicians but are terrific entertainers. And those are usually the people that become the most sought after and famous.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #566
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jags's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
Are you a Gearspace bot designed to make conversation more civil and increase time on the site for advertisers?
No, I am a real person. But, as the OP and creator of this thread, I feel it is proper, courteous, and my responsibility to reply to all new posters, and of course, reply to posts or comments that are directed towards me. Plus I do want to try to keep the conversation as civil as possible!

Thanks!!
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #567
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing ➡️
That’s my point. Everyone is cherry picking to make their desired point. I can point out bad music from every era just as easily as I can point out great music from every era. Whether or not you believe that the music I think is great is of course subjective. What’s funny is that adults today are earnestly making the point that old music is inherently better as if they forgot that adults from their childhood were also saying the exact same thing. Must be some sort of built in defense mechanism.
I want to point out there objective things we can use to determine quality from era to era.

Autotune - The degree to which it is used objectively demonstrates the number of mediocre or even bad singers in music versus ones who are actually great singers. And as we all know Autotune is grossly over used in today's music, allowing traditionally unpassable performers to have a stage. This is a prime example of software lowering the bar and it's widespread use points to a lowering of quality in the music at large.

Similar arguments and objective measures can be drawn from software based productions in terms of actual musicianship.

To the other point, I'm not arguing all old music is better than today's. Its not a generational nostalgic thing. So eras are simply better music objectively then others depending on the genre. Using rock as an example, there's a good sense that 60/70's rock is better objectively than the 50's. Or that 90's/early 2000's rock is better than the 80's and 50's, but in many ways could be considered an equal to the 60's/70's given the similarities tonally and the quality.

I'm also not arguing that technology is bad for music. Quite the opposite. Tech pushes music into new territories and I consider that to be a good thing. But anyone would be hard pressed to successfully argue it hasn't been abused to allow mediocre artists to rise.

Hell, a lowered bar is exactly how I got into music. I'm sure others here would also not be in it if not for software tools, samples, etc.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #568
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcgood ➡️
Seems to me we are confusing great talents with average ones. Today's gear and software has vastly lowered the bar so you no longer need to be an extremely gifted musician to deliver a great work.

TLDR; The talent requirement was much higher in the past.
Clearly this isn't true. Good music still gets elevated. Perhaps there are also more, non instrument based, areas of talent that some people tap into these days - especially in electronic music.

In terms of pure musicianship - I'd say musicians are better today - they've had some much music come before them that they've assimilated - and - musicians have developed new styles and techniques. e.g. heavy metal guitar has *incredible* technique these days.

Even in electronic music, people are making amazingly great music as good as anything that came before. It's just different and it may be based on earlier music, but it can still be amazing and can be way more intricate and better produced. It still takes 'talent' and some effort.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #569
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
one point I will make is that musicians at their best serve the song brilliantly. So any discussions revolving around who is “better” are sort of irrelevant. I think we may not be putting all the musicians in their best place to serve the songs. and even the best folks to be the songwriters. or the best producers.. we have a lot more freedom but it’s problematic. quick thoughts before work.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #570
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
This latest list from RS supports what I've been saying.

Best Songs Of All Time

Look at the list and consider what I've written.

📝 Reply

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