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Why do so many samples of chords exist?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
Why do so many samples of chords exist?

Relative to the more "traditional" waveshapes, I've long been a fan of sample based Osc.
Much more complex wave shapes for oscillator use readily available and assured stable tuning to boot.
But I've never understood having samples of "chords"......
It ruins being able to use the sample as an osc that can be played across the entire range and locks one into a world of playing in 5ths, 9ths, and such things.

None the less, there's tons of them out there.
What's the point?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
Relative to the more "traditional" waveshapes, I've long been a fan of sample based Osc.
Much more complex wave shapes for oscillator use readily available and assured stable tuning to boot.
But I've never understood having samples of "chords"......
It ruins being able to use the sample as an osc that can be played across the entire range and locks one into a world of playing in 5ths, 9ths, and such things.

None the less, there's tons of them out there.
What's the point?
People use them as is in songs. Instead of creating the chord they have a ready to go sample.

I've never worked this way but it's insanely prevalent in a lot of hip hop production.

Using samples as an osc sounds nice but you're unlikely to replicate an actual instrument/ original sound as accurately as with fully baked one shot sample unless we're talking very basic waves.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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WozNYC's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Hip hop, house music, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️

It ruins being able to use the sample as an osc that can be played across the entire range...
You're looking at it the wrong way. Use things to their strengths.
Also, sometimes a transposed chord sample just sounds really f*cking cool.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
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Simonator's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Not so very long ago, people only had monophonic samplers.
Many hardware samplers are still monophonic; especially drum/groovebox style samplers.
In those, a chord sample becomes super useful.

Having said that, I'e never noticed an overabundance of chord samples. So many samples available these days... Just grab what you need for your own production.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
Not so very long ago, people only had monophonic samplers.
Many hardware samplers are still monophonic; especially drum/groovebox style samplers.
In those, a chord sample becomes super useful.

Having said that, I'e never noticed an overabundance of chord samples. So many samples available these days... Just grab what you need for your own production.
Fairlight, Synclavier, Emulator, Akai S, ASR......
none of these were monophonic

There's never been a point in time where anything approaching a majority of commercial/consumer market samplers/sample players were monophonic in their sample play capability.
but yes, had that ever been the case, I could understand that.

Chorded samples have been an "industry" norm for decades, one will run into them with fair regularity going back to commercial sample packs of 90s.
The occasional (orchestra) "hit" and the like aside, I didn't get it back then, and still don't get it now.
So presume there's just some sort of practical regular use case point I've long missed.

*granted, non-chorded samples were far more popular and the vast majority of 90s synths wouldn't exist if this hadn't been the case*
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
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So your Tracker doesn't have to waste 4 tracks just to play a bleepin minor 7th chord?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #7
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator ➡️
Not so very long ago, people only had monophonic samplers.
Uhh. no
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Simonator's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid ➡️
Uhh. no
There's no need to be rude about it.

Plenty of monophonic samplers being made right to the present day.

For example, I recently had an Electron Model:Samples. Each of its tracks are monophonic (although it's multitimbral).

That gives you a choice - you can either spend 3x separate tracks to make a triad chord from single note samples, or you can simply load a chord sample onto a single track - that leaves you more tracks free to use for other sounds.

There are many monophonic samplers out there.

At least this is why I personally use chord samples.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuggaMahone ➡️
So your Tracker doesn't have to waste 4 tracks just to play a bleepin minor 7th chord?
Welp, that's at least one practical use case.....
but not like there's ever been an abundance of heads using Trackers.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #10
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Simonator's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
Welp, that's at least one practical use case.....
but not like there's ever been an abundance of heads using Trackers.
It's not only trackers.

That's what we are trying to say....

With a modern MPC you can simply set trigger mode to 'poly' and set levels to 'tune', then you can play chord off a single pad... But I don't think (??) you could do that in the early days with an MPC 60.

OG 1980s house heads and hip hop guys didn't have $32,000 to drop on a Fairlight.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #11
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chaocrator's Avatar
in particular, because it's an easy way to trigger the whole chord with just one key/pad/finger.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
macs672's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I think this case is closed OP, or are there anymore questions?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Why not?

If you want an oscillator use an oscillator.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #14
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
Fairlight, Synclavier, Emulator, Akai S, ASR......
none of these were monophonic

There's never been a point in time where anything approaching a majority of commercial/consumer market samplers/sample players were monophonic in their sample play capability.
but yes, had that ever been the case, I could understand that.

Chorded samples have been an "industry" norm for decades, one will run into them with fair regularity going back to commercial sample packs of 90s.
The occasional (orchestra) "hit" and the like aside, I didn't get it back then, and still don't get it now.
So presume there's just some sort of practical regular use case point I've long missed.

*granted, non-chorded samples were far more popular and the vast majority of 90s synths wouldn't exist if this hadn't been the case*
Stop thinking abstractly about tech and instead think about what was actually available to people in their particular life circumstances. How many kids making music in the 90s had access to a Synclavier? People use what is practically available to them, and they'll use those things with whatever level of musical knowledge they do or don't have, in whatever way that tech facilitates.

Here's a simple case of "think like them" for you. If I listen to a hip hop track and try to analyze it with the lens of classical music theory, I would conclude "hoW iNteResTinG!! tHeY arE utiLiZInG sIgNiFicAnT aMouNtS oF cHroMatiC pLaNinG..." where in reality they had one sample of a chord which transposes when they hit another key -- thoughts about music theory are irrelevant when that's the only sound they could make with the sample.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBSoundSmith ➡️
Stop thinking abstractly about tech and instead think about what was actually available to people in their particular life circumstances. How many kids making music in the 90s had access to a Synclavier? People use what is practically available to them, and they'll use those things with whatever level of musical knowledge they do or don't have, in whatever way that tech facilitates.

Here's a simple case of "think like them" for you. If I listen to a hip hop track and try to analyze it with the lens of classical music theory, I would conclude "hoW iNteResTinG!! tHeY arE utiLiZInG sIgNiFicAnT aMouNtS oF cHroMatiC pLaNinG..." where in reality they had one sample of a chord which transposes when they hit another key -- thoughts about music theory are irrelevant when that's the only sound they could make with the sample.
The Synclavier wasn't all over the place, but those Akai S Samplers (among else) most certainly were.
My point in highlighting the Fairlight and Synclavier first was more just as a historical note that from the get go things were predominately catered toward chord play not being much of an issue.
Samplers of the monophonic variety were and always have been in a rather deep minority in relation.

My only real wonder was if I was missing something and if anyone had any idea how and/or why the sampled chord thing had happened.

Loops, I've never been overly into but I can understand....
all the more given how things 90s hit in the advent of things like Sonic Foundry's "Acid", "Mixman", and of course things like the Yamaha SU-700 (the real fore-father of Ableton Live).

"Pads" are a great example though.... the amount of commercially released "pads" that aren't some single note or something being worked in something like a 5th that can still scale the range is just astronomical and I was just wondering why such would even come about as it always struck me as counter intuitive. (note of exception to things like orchestra hits)

It's hard for me to imagine that it was dominantly the fault of hip-hop (or even house/techno) culture going mainstream as
1. Hip-Hop, notably in the later 80s into 90s went very phrase/loop sample driven and otherwise remained more "traditional" play driven (as it remains to this day). That's not really a chord thing.
2. Sampled chords start sounding weird when scaled even faster than regular single note samples.

But maybe that's what it was......
just a bunch of non-players in spite of the prevalence of samplers that facilitated such as a norm and they for whatever reason found it more ideal by a significant amount to not have to hit 3 (or more) notes at once when doing their thing. It's just hard for me to imagine finding it easier to lock ones self into some ultra limited range and playable chord than it is to open the range up and being able to make and play just about any chord when desired.

Now mind you for similar though none the less different reasons as the loop issue, with synths, I can once again understand how all these artist emerge playing locked in chords because there really was a bunch of monophonic synths out there that none the less still had enough Osc available to make a chord out of.... and of course there was also the emergence of things like "chord memory".
But that's a different case than the sample.

*shrug*
other than a deep minority of people into tracking having pretty feasible reason to find them desirable, i remain lost. =P
Old 3 weeks ago
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
OP doesn’t listen to Techno and House. Case closed.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab ➡️
OP doesn’t listen to Techno and House. Case closed.
don't listen to music at all actually.
just heard something about money for nothing and your chix for free; figured i'd check it out...
there's music involved?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #18
Gear Addict
 
Pressing a button to trigger a sampled chord... easy.

Old 3 weeks ago
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
Ockeghem's Avatar
Quote:
But I've never understood having samples of "chords"......
It ruins being able to use the sample as an osc that can be played across the entire range and locks one into a world of playing in 5ths, 9ths, and such things.
Why are there so many jazz chords? Because jazz.
Why do people want samples of them?
Because in their imagination they see the use of them.
Why do I not see the use of them?
It’s my lack of imagination.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #20
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xanderbeanz's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I found them cool when I was 13, making Amiga mods.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #21
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
The Synclavier wasn't all over the place, but those Akai S Samplers (among else) most certainly were.
My point in highlighting the Fairlight and Synclavier first was more just as a historical note that from the get go things were predominately catered toward chord play not being much of an issue.
Samplers of the monophonic variety were and always have been in a rather deep minority in relation.

My only real wonder was if I was missing something and if anyone had any idea how and/or why the sampled chord thing had happened.

Loops, I've never been overly into but I can understand....
all the more given how things 90s hit in the advent of things like Sonic Foundry's "Acid", "Mixman", and of course things like the Yamaha SU-700 (the real fore-father of Ableton Live).

"Pads" are a great example though.... the amount of commercially released "pads" that aren't some single note or something being worked in something like a 5th that can still scale the range is just astronomical and I was just wondering why such would even come about as it always struck me as counter intuitive. (note of exception to things like orchestra hits)

It's hard for me to imagine that it was dominantly the fault of hip-hop (or even house/techno) culture going mainstream as
1. Hip-Hop, notably in the later 80s into 90s went very phrase/loop sample driven and otherwise remained more "traditional" play driven (as it remains to this day). That's not really a chord thing.
2. Sampled chords start sounding weird when scaled even faster than regular single note samples.

But maybe that's what it was......
just a bunch of non-players in spite of the prevalence of samplers that facilitated such as a norm and they for whatever reason found it more ideal by a significant amount to not have to hit 3 (or more) notes at once when doing their thing. It's just hard for me to imagine finding it easier to lock ones self into some ultra limited range and playable chord than it is to open the range up and being able to make and play just about any chord when desired.

Now mind you for similar though none the less different reasons as the loop issue, with synths, I can once again understand how all these artist emerge playing locked in chords because there really was a bunch of monophonic synths out there that none the less still had enough Osc available to make a chord out of.... and of course there was also the emergence of things like "chord memory".
But that's a different case than the sample.

*shrug*
other than a deep minority of people into tracking having pretty feasible reason to find them desirable, i remain lost. =P
Jesus you are being very obtuse. Why? Do you really think that just because you - in all of yr well-studied intellectual greatness - don't use something, then it just doesn't make sense?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
The real outrage should be directed towards midi chord packs.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #23
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breakmixer's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
don't listen to music at all actually.
just heard something about money for nothing and your chix for free; figured i'd check it out...
there's music involved?
Listen to early Todd Terry, Black Riot - A Day In The Life and Royal House - Can You Party, Inner City - Good Life for how sampled chords were usefull in dance music for that vibe. I doubt they over thought it, probably just sampled a chord off another record and played that chord on different keys and thought it sounded cool so they played it into their track.

I think the whole sample CD chord thing in hip hop etc(extending here to Garage and DnB etc) came later as a way to get some Rhodes or real strings etc into their tracks without the usual gear required or at hand or without sampling copyrighted work like in earlier hip hop as the laws had tightened. mind you romplers have been available during the whole time, so sometimes they might just like/prefer the sample and wanted to use it.

Last edited by breakmixer; 3 weeks ago at 11:48 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #24
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WozNYC's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️

Hip-Hop, notably in the later 80s into 90s went very phrase/loop sample driven and otherwise remained more "traditional" play driven (as it remains to this day). That's not really a chord thing.
The guy asking why people use chord samples is now giving us the history of hip-hop.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
paturn's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Personally i also like sampling chords for death industrial/ dark ambient. Its def an old trick.. Play a chord thru massive reverb- sample it into a mirage or its ilk- drop pitch - sequence and bam now u have almost every Herpes Hideaway track ha.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #26
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoundTound ➡️
The real outrage should be directed towards midi chord packs.
Lol I always see ads for these. kinda shocking at first
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #27
Gear Head
 
NawwwwwSun's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WozNYC ➡️
The guy asking why people use chord samples is now giving us the history of hip-hop.
If I were to say something like “very typical of ppl who know nothing to explain things they don’t understand while wondering why very basic aspects of that thing are done” the mods would probably ban me for not being constructive and going with the flow, so I won’t.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #28
Gear Addict
 
sin night's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Despite the use in house and such, sometimes it’s nice/inspirational to play a patch with a certain interval already backed in. Does this limits you in what you can do? Definitely, but it may also force you to come up with something different than what you would play if you had a single note (or stacked octaves) sound.
If you make a patch with two oscillators set apart by a musical interval of 5 or 7 semitones, you’ll probably end up playing certain melodies that you wouldn’t necessarily play if you had to hit two keys everytime to play a copy of the melody transposed.

Also, I noticed that having a certain interval/chord fixed in the patch means keeping a static relation between the transients of all the notes of the chord. Say you play a C chord on a piano: you can be a really great player, but sometimes a key of the chord may be hit a little earlier and sometimes a little later, you can play the notes of the chord in a really tight and precise way or you can play it “lazy”, almost arpeggiated. Everytime you play that chord on the piano, it will probably sound a bit different. if you play a sampled chord, you have a static photo and you repeat that precise feeling over and over everytime you play the note (and, it the chord is played in a lazy way, it becomes tighter as you transpose it up). It’s all about sounding robotic and have certain artifacts that you won’t get by playing the chord in a “traditional way”.
Of course it’s not always the right thing for the piece, but sometimes it fits the aesthetic.
In my opinion, nowadays it’s all about options and being creative.


One thing I sometimes do (especially when using TAL Sampler) when a patch is meant to be used as a stab/chord, is to program a patch as a single note in a layer and then copy it to other layers and transpose them to create a chord. This way I can have a chord patch (say a min7th, because I usually have house and techno in mind when I create my sounds) that I can play as a one-finger-chord without being forced to use a keyboard with chord memory, but I can quickly change the chord by changing the transposition of the layers, or I can free myself from the limitations of the one-finger-chords by turning off all the layers but one and then play the chords on a keyboard in the traditional way.
This is just a technique that I like in my workflow (and of course the price is to waste the limited number of layers avaible in the TAL Sampler).


Another thing that comes to my mind are those cheap fan organ. I had a Bontempi as young kid in the eighties... I think they are “iconic” of a certain time... well, anyway, mine (but also other models that I saw online) had a section on the left with buttons which played... chords!!! I don’t know if that is just a feature of those fan organ or if it has a deeper history/reason, anyway I thought it was worth to mention it in this thread just for perspective...
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretty.mess ➡️
Jesus you are being very obtuse. Why? Do you really think that just because you - in all of yr well-studied intellectual greatness - don't use something, then it just doesn't make sense?
A look at putting things into better context,
was going through some old sample discs, taking out the chaff and porting other things off to the "for use as potential osc waves" department. After going through "sounds great, but it's a chord..... in the trash it goes" for the upteenth time, just got to wondering how and why sampling chords had ever become much of a thing to begin with.

I can get people doing it on their own and things.... user sampling was and will always be a wild wild west that's not meant to make sense beyond the individual, but the fact it ever managed to become a norm in commercial market practices just baffles me as it's like "What's one supposed to do with these things in general use cases?"

For all I know there was some fairly standardized use cases and approaches as the practice was far from rare on sample pack CDs of the past and wouldn't be surprised if it carries on strongly into the commercial current. As the old saying goes, "If you don't know, you better ask somebody...."
Maybe learn something new; try some different approaches.

From what I gather thus far, doesn't seem there's much idea as to what brought the (particularly commercial) practice on as any sort of established norm.

Hopefully the additional context can relieve any idea that the question was somehow an attack on the methods of others or somehow an attempt to proclaim a deceleration of "right" standard for sampling with a toast to critical thought and inquiry still being viewed as something other than an inherent sin or an attack.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #30
Gear Head
 
NawwwwwSun's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
A look at putting things into better context,
was going through some old sample discs, taking out the chaff and porting other things off to the "for use as potential osc waves" department. After going through "sounds great, but it's a chord..... in the trash it goes" for the upteenth time, just got to wondering how and why sampling chords had ever become much of a thing to begin with.

I can get people doing it on their own and things.... user sampling was and will always be a wild wild west that's not meant to make sense beyond the individual, but the fact it ever managed to become a norm in commercial market practices just baffles me as it's like "What's one supposed to do with these things in general use cases?"

For all I know there was some fairly standardized use cases and approaches as the practice was far from rare on sample pack CDs of the past and wouldn't be surprised if it carries on strongly into the commercial current. As the old saying goes, "If you don't know, you better ask somebody...."
Maybe learn something new; try some different approaches.

From what I gather thus far, doesn't seem there's much idea as to what brought the (particularly commercial) practice on as any sort of established norm.

Hopefully the additional context can relieve any idea that the question was somehow an attack on the methods of others or somehow an attempt to proclaim a deceleration of "right" standard for sampling with a toast to critical thought and inquiry still being viewed as something other than an inherent sin or an attack.
You know they put chord memory directly on some synthesizers right?
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