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Why do so many samples of chords exist?
Old 3rd June 2021 | Show parent
  #31
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sin night ➡️
....Another thing that comes to my mind are those cheap fan organs. I had a Bontempi as young kid in the eighties... I think they are “iconic” of a certain time... well, anyway, mine (but also other models that I saw online) had a section on the left with buttons which played... chords!!! I don’t know if that is just a feature of those fan organ or if it has a deeper history/reason, anyway I thought it was worth to mention it in this thread just for perspective...
Yeah, like Magnus Chord Organ, the fan organ maker who published "Sheet Music Magazine", which featured easy sheet music for songs that an old lady in the 1980s would want to play. I have an issue where Sequential took out a large ad for the Pro 1.

But anyway, I think Casiochords and the buttons on the "chord organs" both are twigs from the electronic home organ evolutionary tree, with their fancy auto-accompaniment. Those chord buttons were as close as you were going to get to auto-accompaniment, if you were using a vacuum cleaner powered organ.

With the Casios, the one finger chord option was in the same section, different notch on the same switch even, as the auto-accompaniment. One finger for a major chord, 2 for minor, 3 fingers for 7th chords (the lowest of your three fingers defines the chord's root note. It doesn't matter which higher notes the other 2 fingers play - as long as they're within the lower split of the keyboard, you'll get a dominant 7th chord). 4 fingers will trigger either aug or dim, I forget which, but either one is kinda silly - 4 fingers will get you a 3 note chord! But, the extra finger means you don't have to learn how to play the chord in that key, the way it works. Just play the root, and any 3 higher notes below the split.

The real benefit was that you could play really fast chord changes that way. Casiochords with the crappy piano preset would choke each other with a groove that reminded me of the fast chords in the Prodigy Experience album... but the Casio version, since there weren't any fx. I think it was because Casiochords were limited to one chord, of one type, at a time, by the nature of how you input them. If you changed them fast, it made the piano sound even more fake but much more intense than normal. If you changed them really fast, it got glitchy. You could get mostly just the attack portion, the beginning of the chord, with the notes perfectly stacked. It was much more intense sounding than when I played the Casio normally. So, even if you could play the real chords yourself, there was a reason to use the easy chords.

I think arranger keyboards and wersis and electones became the most vital direct branch of that home organ evolutionary lineage. KARMA and iarp are these isolated limbs on the tree. Things like chord samples probably belong to the lineage that springs from the early tape instruments, up through the digital samplers, to today.

I guess MIDI chord packs must be some sort of a Frankenstein abomination genetically engineered between the 2 lineages. Everyone should steer clear, until we find out whether they kill brain cells.
Old 3rd June 2021 | Show parent
  #32
Gear Maniac
 
macs672's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
A look at putting things into better context,
was going through some old sample discs, taking out the chaff and porting other things off to the "for use as potential osc waves" department. After going through "sounds great, but it's a chord..... in the trash it goes" for the upteenth time, just got to wondering how and why sampling chords had ever become much of a thing to begin with.

I can get people doing it on their own and things.... user sampling was and will always be a wild wild west that's not meant to make sense beyond the individual, but the fact it ever managed to become a norm in commercial market practices just baffles me as it's like "What's one supposed to do with these things in general use cases?"

For all I know there was some fairly standardized use cases and approaches as the practice was far from rare on sample pack CDs of the past and wouldn't be surprised if it carries on strongly into the commercial current. As the old saying goes, "If you don't know, you better ask somebody...."
Maybe learn something new; try some different approaches.

From what I gather thus far, doesn't seem there's much idea as to what brought the (particularly commercial) practice on as any sort of established norm.

Hopefully the additional context can relieve any idea that the question was somehow an attack on the methods of others or somehow an attempt to proclaim a deceleration of "right" standard for sampling with a toast to critical thought and inquiry still being viewed as something other than an inherent sin or an attack.
First of all; please take your meds
Second; it seems that you try to impress with your use of language but it doesn’t help you to cover the illogical holes of your sentences. You are saying “(yaddayayadda) they are no established norm” and then you are saying “(yaddayadda) no attack intended”.

There were several examples given to you for the practical and artistic use of samples chords yet you try to say there isn’t.

Like it would be really good practice when discussing sth in an forum where others take part of the conversation to hear them and maybe even learn sth on the way. You’re better of writing blogposts.
Old 3rd June 2021
  #33
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
Relative to the more "traditional" waveshapes, I've long been a fan of sample based Osc.
Much more complex wave shapes for oscillator use readily available and assured stable tuning to boot.
But I've never understood having samples of "chords"......
It ruins being able to use the sample as an osc that can be played across the entire range and locks one into a world of playing in 5ths, 9ths, and such things.

None the less, there's tons of them out there.
What's the point?
The easy answer these sample packs exist, both audio and midi, is that there's a market for them. I guess it's attractive for people who don't know music theory - you can just string together stuff others have made. (I myself suck at music theory, for the record 😝 I don't use such libraries, though).
Old 3rd June 2021 | Show parent
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by macs672 ➡️
First of all; please take your meds
Second; it seems that you try to impress with your use of language but it doesn’t help you to cover the illogical holes of your sentences. You are saying “(yaddayayadda) they are no established norm” and then you are saying “(yaddayadda) no attack intended”.

There were several examples given to you for the practical and artistic use of samples chords yet you try to say there isn’t.

Like it would be really good practice when discussing sth in an forum where others take part of the conversation to hear them and maybe even learn sth on the way. You’re better of writing blogposts.
Never said there wasn't any use cases, but you're free to interpret however you like.


btw
"You're better of writing blogposts." isn't a sentence
Old 3rd June 2021 | Show parent
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perplexo ➡️
The easy answer these sample packs exist, both audio and midi, is that there's a market for them. I guess it's attractive for people who don't know music theory - you can just string together stuff others have made. (I myself suck at music theory, for the record 😝 I don't use such libraries, though).
The thing about music "theory" is that it's all just a bunch of ideas some thought "might" be useful.

How Academics and Scholastics ever managed to pass any of it off as "law" may remain a mystery.
Old 3rd June 2021 | Show parent
  #36
Gear Nut
 
that's a really weird question, sometimes you use a chord sample simply because of the timbre and texture, and you can do a lot from one slightly longer chord sample if you just like the timbre and texture of it. Pitch it up, pitch it down, use filters to filter out some notes that you don't need, or emphasize notes that you want to be heard with BP filtering, reverse, chop up, rearrange (even if it's somewhat static sound), resample, and rinse and repeat.

one of my very old tracks used one chord sample because i liked the timbre and texture of it. With some filtering and pitching you can go a long way.



I would agree with this argument if we would talk about, what's the use of one short, let's say minor chord that is made of simple waveforms, it is somewhat pointless then.
Old 3rd June 2021 | Show parent
  #37
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
The thing about music "theory" is that it's all just a bunch of ideas some thought "might" be useful.

How Academics and Scholastics ever managed to pass any of it off as "law" may remain a mystery.
Well, I guess there are good reasons why that happened, as we probably intuitively perceive certain notes making sense together? I'm not an expert on this issue but find it interesting
Old 3rd June 2021 | Show parent
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perplexo ➡️
Well, I guess there are good reasons why that happened, as we probably intuitively perceive certain notes making sense together? I'm not an expert on this issue but find it interesting
"Theory" has been great in aiding in general communication of concepts, ideas, and conveying observed natures of mathematical relationships between musicians for sure!

Just much of the Academic/Scholastic approach seemed to lose the plot somewhere along the way..... started instilling weird ideas into students and the more general public consciousness along the lines of "This means you do things this way and only this way or you're doing it wrong and will always be in the dunce chair and never make first!"
Talking "theory", but enforcing an approach that applied certain institutionally idealized "theoretical" approaches as if they were "law"
(talk about an apt way to kill off artistic explorations) =P

At the end of the day, it's darn near impossible to approach music without theory.... people are coming up with their own contributions to the space all the time, they just often aren't aware of it and don't communicate their developed theories with a wider audience (often because they aren't in a position to).

Sorta like swimming.... formal lessons or no formal lessons, until one develops some sort of "theory" as to how they're going to work their body to move through the water they're basically just gonna thrash around aimlessly (or something) until they sink. Similarly, soon as one has managed to play something they're satisfied with or that's even approaching something they're satisfied with, rest assured they've entered into music theory..... as they needed to have establish some form of theory to even establish the idea of what they found effective and satisfactory (ala, to "musically swim").

This thread is littered with various individual approaches and contributions to theory.

Academic and/or Scholastic backgrounds need not apply.
Old 4th June 2021 | Show parent
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
jabberwalky's Avatar
I tend to avoid them. Just like I also tend to avoid saxophone presets.
Old 4th June 2021 | Show parent
  #40
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
"Theory" has been great in aiding in general communication of concepts, ideas, and conveying observed natures of mathematical relationships between musicians for sure!

Just much of the Academic/Scholastic approach seemed to lose the plot somewhere along the way..... started instilling weird ideas into students and the more general public consciousness along the lines of "This means you do things this way and only this way or you're doing it wrong and will always be in the dunce chair and never make first!"
Talking "theory", but enforcing an approach that applied certain institutionally idealized "theoretical" approaches as if they were "law"
(talk about an apt way to kill off artistic explorations) =P

At the end of the day, it's darn near impossible to approach music without theory.... people are coming up with their own contributions to the space all the time, they just often aren't aware of it and don't communicate their developed theories with a wider audience (often because they aren't in a position to).

Sorta like swimming.... formal lessons or no formal lessons, until one develops some sort of "theory" as to how they're going to work their body to move through the water they're basically just gonna thrash around aimlessly (or something) until they sink. Similarly, soon as one has managed to play something they're satisfied with or that's even approaching something they're satisfied with, rest assured they've entered into music theory..... as they needed to have establish some form of theory to even establish the idea of what they found effective and satisfactory (ala, to "musically swim").

This thread is littered with various individual approaches and contributions to theory.

Academic and/or Scholastic backgrounds need not apply.
I gotta say I like your posts, man
Old 4th June 2021 | Show parent
  #41
Gear Nut
 
NawwwwwSun's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
"Theory" has been great in aiding in general communication of concepts, ideas, and conveying observed natures of mathematical relationships between musicians for sure!

Just much of the Academic/Scholastic approach seemed to lose the plot somewhere along the way..... started instilling weird ideas into students and the more general public consciousness along the lines of "This means you do things this way and only this way or you're doing it wrong and will always be in the dunce chair and never make first!"
Talking "theory", but enforcing an approach that applied certain institutionally idealized "theoretical" approaches as if they were "law"
(talk about an apt way to kill off artistic explorations) =P

At the end of the day, it's darn near impossible to approach music without theory.... people are coming up with their own contributions to the space all the time, they just often aren't aware of it and don't communicate their developed theories with a wider audience (often because they aren't in a position to).

Sorta like swimming.... formal lessons or no formal lessons, until one develops some sort of "theory" as to how they're going to work their body to move through the water they're basically just gonna thrash around aimlessly (or something) until they sink. Similarly, soon as one has managed to play something they're satisfied with or that's even approaching something they're satisfied with, rest assured they've entered into music theory..... as they needed to have establish some form of theory to even establish the idea of what they found effective and satisfactory (ala, to "musically swim").

This thread is littered with various individual approaches and contributions to theory.

Academic and/or Scholastic backgrounds need not apply.
So you’re arguing that knowing theory is too restrictive and somehow forced on people (which tbh nobody I know has ever believed), but are also not understanding why people would want samples of chords.

Pick a side.
Old 4th June 2021
  #42
Lives for gear
 
Fay Smearing's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Chords are sounds.

*Independent thought alarm goes off*

"Willie - remove the coloured chalk from the classrooms..."
Old 4th June 2021
  #43
Gear Maniac
 
Benny Hill's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Why do so many samples of chords exist? Because a huge amount of so-called musicians aren’t capable of playing their own chords or chord progressions. Music has been turned into a “paint by numbers” art form. And that’s one of the many reasons why much of what you hear these days is a watered down version of something that preceded it.

Next will be entire song samples. Just fart over it, name it and off to SoundCloud it goes.
Old 4th June 2021 | Show parent
  #44
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by paturn ➡️
bam now u have almost every Herpes Hideaway track ha.
Herpes Hideaway? Wouldn’t it be more considerate to just let your partner know?
Old 4th June 2021
  #45
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
Relative to the more "traditional" waveshapes, I've long been a fan of sample based Osc.
Much more complex wave shapes for oscillator use readily available and assured stable tuning to boot.
But I've never understood having samples of "chords"......
It ruins being able to use the sample as an osc that can be played across the entire range and locks one into a world of playing in 5ths, 9ths, and such things.

None the less, there's tons of them out there.
What's the point?
Because generation after Gen of “musician” that can’t read music has “evolved” into a gen of “musician” that can’t even play an instrument themselves at all

It’s ridiculous
Old 4th June 2021
  #46
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golden beers's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
worked for these guys
Old 4th June 2021 | Show parent
  #47
Deleted cda76ca
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood ➡️
Because generation after Gen of “musician” that can’t read music has “evolved” into a gen of “musician” that can’t even play an instrument themselves at all

It’s ridiculous
There’s no need to disparage non-readers. I’m not a particularly good reader, but my ear skills are so advanced that I can recreate pieces without really trying at all.

Last edited by Deleted cda76ca; 4th June 2021 at 12:03 PM..
Old 4th June 2021 | Show parent
  #48
Gear Guru
 
Muser's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
it's probably because it's considered a way of getting similar effects to sample chopping. minus a lawsuit.
Old 4th June 2021
  #49
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WozNYC's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
This thread is so silly and close-minded.
Even super musicians like YES used chord samples in their music as far back as 1983.

Listen to the first 20 seconds of "Owner Of A Lonely Heart."

Old 4th June 2021 | Show parent
  #50
Gear Maniac
 
macs672's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
Never said there wasn't any use cases, but you're free to interpret however you like.


btw
"You're better of writing blogposts." isn't a sentence
Nothing to get out of you for me, so I'm getting tired giving you attention/energy. Again, when you want to make a statement about sth write go write a blogpost.

"Openness to experience… is the single strongest and most consistent personality trait that predicts creative achievement,”
Some people are better off enjoying their very own prison.

And you're free to interpret however you like, too.
Old 4th June 2021 | Show parent
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by WozNYC ➡️
This thread is so silly and close-minded.
Even super musicians like YES used chord samples in their music as far back as 1983.

Listen to the first 20 seconds of "Owner Of A Lonely Heart."

As pre-noted, well understand the orchestra hit (and related), notably given the context that such had been made part of the standard from the dawn of the commercial sampler.

Moving beyond that and on to inclusion of more generalized single chords as (a particularly commercial) standard is what was not understood. To elaborate on this a bit more, there was a (again particularly commercial) generalized standard of "here's a sample based waveform that's capable of fully key scaling without bringing about odd play limitations like having to use 5ths or sticking to rather limited scale when playing polyphonic". The use of that standard is (perhaps obviously) prolific through out not only the sample based digital synths that would dominate commercial synths from the late 80s through 90s, equally dominated the make up of most sample pack releases, and still dominates the general standard of musical sample based product instruments now. The practicality (perhaps obviously) rooted in take a sample based waveform, establish zero cross points and loops for a sustainable waveform, and now one has sustainable complex waveforms for Osc use beyond things like the old analogue standard of just saw, square/pulse, triangle, and sine.
In essence, the "why" and "how" the "theory" took on a general wide (again particularly commercial) spread use standard is easy to grasp.
*NOTE THAT THIS "WHY" AND "HOW" OF "THEORY" APPLICATION INTO A GENERALIZED STANDARD IS NOT BEING HERE CLAIMED AS ANY SORT OF "LAW" OF "THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY OR BUST!"*

Lost as to how questioning the same of single chords that weren't at all of natures like the "hit" is construed as being closed minded or as some sort of attack on persons and this point stress of this specific response that all that's being expressed (now again) is a: "please understand the nature of the question before responding to a question and/or accusation one self invented over what was actually posed."

If one doesn't know why, there's nothing wrong with not saying anything or just saying "I've no idea" over responding to things never asked or propsitioned.

Propositions i've gathered so far:
1. Practical use case for trackers (all be it still think this doesn't quite explain things given trackers have never been close to an industry norm)
2. The idea of playing 3 or more notes at a time intimidated a considerable amount of musicians. (personally find that a strange notion, but o.k.)
3. Helped facilitate some more complex chord spreads even if limited in practical scale use. (an application that could be difficult to make out on recordings as such might appear as just a single complex timbre rather than a multi-key note spread, but o.k., maybe such has been more of a thing than ever realized)

and then there's been a litany of individualized approaches that don't seem to consider why the sampled chord would become part of a generalized standard or much more what theortical "hows" and "whys" to that standard even were.


*vid pun intended..... but the how/why general standard synth applications of chord memory and such come about has already been addressed from numerous ends. It's specifically the sampled single chord that was asked about.*
Old 4th June 2021 | Show parent
  #52
Gear Maniac
 
jabberwalky's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien23 ➡️
Propositions i've gathered so far:
1. Practical use case for trackers (all be it still think this doesn't quite explain things given trackers have never been close to an industry norm)
I want your dose of Adderall. A good 20mg will get me posting in forums at length for an entire day!

Just want to correct this because it's just wrong. Every video game soundtrack up until the Playstation used trackers to compose. The SNES used chord samples occasionally.
Old 4th June 2021 | Show parent
  #53
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood ➡️
Because generation after Gen of “musician” that can’t read music has “evolved” into a gen of “musician” that can’t even play an instrument themselves at all

It’s ridiculous
So if we actually play the chord and then sample ourselves to achieve a certain effect in a sampler, is that ok?

Just trying to make sure I don't offend the “im a real musician!” music gods (typically boomers who play tired blues covers in front of 15 drunk people).
Old 4th June 2021
  #54
Gear Maniac
 
Ockeghem's Avatar
Virtual guitarist took it to new levels
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Old 4th June 2021 | Show parent
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabberwalky ➡️
I want your dose of Adderall. A good 20mg will get me posting in forums at length for an entire day!

Just want to correct this because it's just wrong. Every video game soundtrack up until the Playstation used trackers to compose. The SNES used chord samples occasionally.
Take the point here as trackers were more an industry norm than has been given credit and similarly that sample packs were being sample and bit reduced for port over to gaming engines more regularly than credit is being ascribed.

Please don't get me wrong, I remember the tracking scene and even had some (loose) ties to it myself back in the day (Blacktron Music Productions in most particular); but taking things back to such a time I recall much of the scene as not just "underground", but so "underground" that even most electronic centric musicians I dealt with at the time weren't familiar with what was going on in the area and would stand perplexed at the mention of things like "Fasttracker II".

So, not saying there's nothing to the tracker relation, just that if the area had that much of an influence on general standards and practices it's of rather large surprise to me.
Old 4th June 2021
  #56
Deleted d14cc4f
Guest
Sampled chords offer a different vibe.

They might sound “uneducated” to some chord heads because they’re parallel. But, there are millions of examples of “clever” chord sequences that are forgettable drivel.

And the sound of the samples speeding up as they are played at a higher pitch is unique and vibey.

I have a theory that music needs to be either clever or brutal. When you get too clever with a typically brutal style, it loses its power. The person who made it probably won’t kick your arse, right? They are pretenders. And you can tell.

Clever music often has to explain itself. You don’t understand my clever modulations! See how I turned around into a completely different scale towards the end of the second phrase? Blah blah blah. This person is a tit who will get their arse kicked. Guaranteed.

Conversely, somebody who puts music together out of ‘stolen’ bits and bobs, admittedly doesn’t know what they’re doing, jams together chromatic elements that are technically wrong (but still sound right) and generally goes by feel and ends up with a wonky, yet vibey production and will probably glass you the moment you look at them funny.

One type of person is good for beard stroking, heady and safe stuff, while the other is good music for having a bit of a “dangerous” vibe and giving you a bit of a scare.

And that’s all there is to it.
Old 4th June 2021
  #57
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
@ Benny Hill music has been "paint by numbers" for ages if you consider classical and/or jazz musicians who play the masters compositions but can't or don't compose originals.
Old 4th June 2021
  #58
Old 4th June 2021
  #59
Gear Addict
 
OP: Why?
Thread: good reasons.
OP: YEAH BUT NO I MEAN COME ON-
Thread: Really?
OP: STOP ATTACKING ME!
Old 4th June 2021
  #60
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Almost without fail, the guys who complain about the decline of original music are clowns who either play covers that everyone has heard 1000x and/or have milked the s— out of the pentatonic scale while aping clapton licks. Its a guarantee.

The best players i know in LA or nyc who play on a ton of records and have fusion or jazz gigs many many times also have an electronic side project they do - because they love music and don’t judge how people choose to make theirs.
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