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Sampling in the 90’s and now
Old 4 weeks ago
  #91
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shreddoggie's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
There is a fundamental reasoning error at play here which is: Art is only that which is new, wholly original, and made by the artist.
This is a basic misunderstanding of what art is.
Formalism is only one of many lenses one can use.

If sampling something made by another is 'lazy' to you, fine - don't do it.
If your art is to find something beautiful and compose a photograph of it, great - do that.
If your art is to find old music or sounds and create collages with them, re-imagining or re-contextualizing its meaning, great - do that.
If your art is to start with a blank canvas and create something from scratch, great - do that.
If you fell any of these are more or less interesting than the others - fine, that is your prerogative.

Where the line is drawn is at judging someones creation as invalid because you don't accept their materials or techniques.
It is a great big world, time is infinite, and you are just one small person here temporarily.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #92
Gear Maniac
 
Astro Spy's Avatar
 
My art also requires a percent of people who look down on it. If no one accused me of stealing, how could I be a cool criminal? But I don't want to be looked down on too hard. Just the right amount.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #93
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NEXUS-6's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
80's sampling *****..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #94
Gear Maniac
 
Astro Spy's Avatar
 
Old 4 weeks ago
  #95
Gear Guru
 
Derp's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
There's definitely an art to making a sample your own. Sure, Daft Punk sampled whole bars, but could you make it into what they did? I think the old Ableton covers of Prodigy songs demonstrate this wonderfully. You can't sound like Liam Howlett without a little Rage Against the Machine.

Old 4 weeks ago
  #96
Gear Maniac
 
ModMatrix's Avatar
Just had a release come out on a label recently and I can’t believe the label actually went thru the trouble of clearing the sample. It was so friggin obscure and I mangled it, chopped, resampled, mangled again.... It was so unrecognizable that it took me MONTHS just to remember what it was (it definitely wasn’t picked by any algorithm). After all that, how much could of they possibly even paid?! Lol. If it was up to me I would just released.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #97
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shreddoggie's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro Spy ➡️
My art also requires a percent of people who look down on it. If no one accused me of stealing, how could I be a cool criminal? But I don't want to be looked down on too hard. Just the right amount.
I will happily look down upon your art as my way of supporting you.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #98
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NawSon's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModMatrix ➡️
Just had a release come out on a label recently and I can’t believe the label actually went thru the trouble of clearing the sample. It was so friggin obscure and I mangled it, chopped, resampled, mangled again.... It was so unrecognizable that it took me MONTHS just to remember what it was (it definitely wasn’t picked by any algorithm). After all that, how much could of they possibly even paid?! Lol. If it was up to me I would just released.
Would they have refused to release it if you “couldn’t remember” where the sample came from?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #99
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Bignatius's Avatar
If I had a sample buried that deep it will absolutely be up to someone else to figure that out.

Who tells on themselves for that?

And really, if it's that in the background how important can it be? Just use another sound.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #100
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jazzcabbage's Avatar
 
What did DJ Shadow do? Post Biz Markie vs Gilbert O'Sullivan the sample laws were in place so did he just sign that album away and just liv off the touring $$$? Honest question
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #101
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehighesttree ➡️
"Just grab a Strat, and make sure you run it through some old-timey jog'n'flutter filter, ya'hear?"

I suppose you're right; sometimes you want to evoke something that can't be performed. I'm thinking more like Daft Punk ripping off whole bars of old funk and disco with some halfass backing and calling it their own. Maybe that's something that can only be evoked from its source material, but personally I think it's just bloody lazy.
Have you ever gone trough piles of 7” / 12” Records to find something/anything usefull? Now those samples used by DP and Fatboy Slim might sound obvious, but i argue that we would have not heard those samples / tracks without them finding them. (The rights-owners have been happy too as they have done loads of money from those tracks)

Should people turn great loop into crappy loop just for not ”being lazy”? I don’t think so.

BUT i think like that when it Puff Daddy sampled the Police It’s a bit lazy to sample another hit record.

The sample that Stardust used on Music Sounds. Better with you -was a good find, but when others started to use the same sample it was a bit cheesy.

When DJ Shadow was clearing samples for hes’s 100% sample based Records, he said it started to be silly: Rights owners wanted more % that there was available. There is only 100% to share, but Total amount could be something like 400%. He probably makes very little money from Entroducing.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #102
Lives for gear
 
Bignatius's Avatar
There's nothing more or less "lazy" about using a given Sample irrespective of its length.

That Diddy track with the Sting bits jams, and good music is good music no matter how "lazy".

Some yahoo who deftly masks the origin of some obscure Kick is no more an Artist than Diddy.

And no less "lazy".

Sometimes the simplest combos are enough, and whether it comes from a loop/hook or tiny fragment matters not.

Yer not cooler for not using some loop or hook, it's simply a personal choice. You do you, boo.

I think of lazy as using presets and buying sample packs and not learning instruments.

All mere matters of opinion.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #103
Lives for gear
 
NEXUS-6's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
.....
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #104
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignatius ➡️
There's nothing more or less "lazy" about using a given Sample irrespective of its length.

That Diddy track with the Sting bits jams, and good music is good music no matter how "lazy".

Some yahoo who deftly masks the origin of some obscure Kick is no more an Artist than Diddy.

And no less "lazy".

All mere matters of opinion.
Actully there is a difference: It’s different if u spend hours on going trough the dollar bin to find something OR buy a loop for a million dollars. The Sting loop is not ’a find’ it’s a expensive loop bought by a millionare.

Minor detail, but anyways.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #105
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Bignatius's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Burrito ➡️
Actully there is a difference: It’s different if u spend hours on going trough the dollar bin to find something OR buy a loop for a million dollars. The Sting loop is not ’a find’ it’s a expensive loop bought by a millionare.

Minor detail, but anyways.
Sure, it's different, maybe even more laborious, but any difference in value or merit is purely subjective. Effort != Value.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #106
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barfunkel ➡️
The near future is now... I mean, about a year ago I sampled the acapella of an 1998 underground house track. Put it on soundcloud and youtube, both took it down immediately, not because someone reported it but because the sample detection algorithm they have spotted the sample and the track was taken down automatically.
I wonder what will happen when tracks are using royalty free loops or sounds from sites like Splice and the detection algorithms recognises them from other tracks using the same sounds.
Taken down and the burden of proof is on you I guess.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #107
Gear Maniac
 
Astro Spy's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddoggie ➡️
I will happily look down upon your art as my way of supporting you.
Thank you! If you could just click a bunch of my youtube videos and soundcloud tracks while rolling your eyes, that would be great. (Maybe leave some hurtful comments, argue with other commenters, etc.)
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #108
Gear Maniac
 
ModMatrix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by NawSon ➡️
Would they have refused to release it if you “couldn’t remember” where the sample came from?
Not sure? They are an established, long time label, so maybe? Can’t say. Maybe they’ve been burned before?
This is definitely not something thats A) gonna make a significant amount of money or B) is even remotely mainstream. It *might* make it onto some random DJ mix (maybe).
My guess is they’re just covering their ass.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #109
Lives for gear
 
Bignatius's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro Spy ➡️
Thank you! If you could just click a bunch of my youtube videos and soundcloud tracks while rolling your eyes, that would be great. (Maybe leave some hurtful comments, argue with other commenters, etc.)
We made fun of you via PM, too, if that helps.

Doin' my part.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #110
Gear Maniac
 
Astro Spy's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignatius ➡️
We made fun of you via PM, too, if that helps.

Doin' my part.
Awesome, very helpful. My PR is 50% based around private messages where people call me a hack or fraud. Word of mouth, you know?

The other 50% is posting videos in this thread.

Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #111
Lives for gear
 
NawSon's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModMatrix ➡️
Not sure? They are an established, long time label, so maybe? Can’t say. Maybe they’ve been burned before?
This is definitely not something thats A) gonna make a significant amount of money or B) is even remotely mainstream. It *might* make it onto some random DJ mix (maybe).
My guess is they’re just covering their ass.
I’d have tried claiming that I had no idea first just to see what the response was. I’ve had releases by similar sounding stature labels that def had illegal samples and they didn’t even ask. This was five years ago or so, maybe things have changed but I haven’t heard about it if so.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #112
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Bignatius's Avatar
Your Mission, should you chose to accept it, is to smuggle these Conflict Samples into the mainstream music scene.

Someone needs to test the boundaries of the detection algorithms to see how to avoid them, just to be annoying to them...keep that team busy AF chasing their tails trying to keep up with it all.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #113
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Monotremata's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignatius ➡️
Your Mission, should you chose to accept it, is to smuggle these Conflict Samples into the mainstream music scene.

Someone needs to test the boundaries of the detection algorithms to see how to avoid them, just to be annoying to them...keep that team busy AF chasing their tails trying to keep up with it all.
Im gonna get a Mirage to run all my movie samples through. That thing will funk them up enough they'll get past the scanners.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #114
This is an interesting topic tbf.
My last copyright issue was with at the time a very large uk pop group. We used a sample from the French group, Air. It was used highly artistically (and processed to hell: imho quite unrecognisable to the original clip).
It wasn’t put forward for sample clearance as we thought it would be fine.
Low and behold when the album was released, we had a claim come through from Air’s record label and as such had to pay for permission to use.
Ironically it might have been cheaper to simply ask in the first place.

To this very day, I still use the simple ethos of “is it my recording or original material?”.

If not, I log it and submit it for clearance. The PRS in the U.K. even have a section when you submit your tracks where you can ID samples used.
It doesn’t mean you’ll have permission to use it, but at least the royalty “split”’is recognised at source.
Never had a moan about it from anyone.

And this isn’t a condemnation of those who ignore copyright (entirely your choice), but just to show you how I traverse the situation that as soon as money gets involved, does become an issue.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #115
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignatius ➡️
Someone needs to test the boundaries of the detection algorithms to see how to avoid them, just to be annoying to them...keep that team busy AF chasing their tails trying to keep up with it all.
I have heard of people trying various filtering pitching and reversing of say a few seconds of a Beatles song and uploading to youtube and they get automatically claimed instantly. But it would be interesting to see what it takes to mask it.

Chop the beats in a different order, how short can the algorithm detect? What level of disruptive sounding delays and tremolo and whatnot is enough to get past? Using melodyne to mess up the harmony etc. There's only so good the algorithm can get without false positive claiming everything that sounds vaguely similar to everything else.

But I'm sure doing exactly this is part of the job of the people who develop the Content ID system.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #116
Gear Head
 
Okay, I just tried some uploads on a fresh youtube account. I looked up the highest viewed videos of all time and went for Ed Sheeran's Shape of You because it has billions of views (so the algorithm and rights companies will be all over its nuts) and it has a very recognisable bing bong sound throughout that the algorithm can probably detect easily.

First thing I thought to try was, what if the audio was really poor digital quality? I know Youtube can detect songs playing on speakers in the background of a publicly recorded video during a vlog or whatever, so I thought I'd try uploading a terrible quality hit song and see what it would detect.

First upload was with Goodhertz Lossy turning it into a swirly mess, but still recognisable to human ears. Not detected by youtube. Uploaded another dragging the loss amount down from 100 to 75%, and it was detected. Reversed the audio and it wasn't detected. Gradually reduced the loss with reversed audio, and it was not detected by youtube, even with the raw reversed audio and no other processing!

So it appears the algorithm isn't good at detecting reversed audio.

Next I tried it with some weird warping in Ableton, playing about a third faster at the same pitch but using the Beats warp type causing each beat to be clipped and swirled. Very recognisable to the human hear as the original song, but very chopped and strange. All the other uploads either passed or failed almost instantly when it got to the Checking phase, this one chugged through percentages for a minute... before detecting the song. I'm very surprised Youtube can't detect the raw audio in reverse, but it can detect this pretty heavily altered version.

Next I tried a far more extreme beat warp, playing very slowly at the original pitch with the beats repeating and swirling back and forth. This passed the check undetected instantly.

Then I tried a simple warp with the original timing but tuned an octave down. I thought for sure that would be detected, but no! Tried it an octave up and it was detected. Two octaves up really chipmunking it, and it wasn't detected. I tried a fifth down which was detected.

Next I tried traditional pitching with the associated speed changes. Octave down and no detection. Octave up and... daily upload limit reached. I didn't know that existed. I'll try more tomorrow.

So at this point, it seems Youtube is bad at detecting reversed audio and heavily pitched down audio. It's good at original pitch and pitched up audio. I would like to try some of the detected options but with say a drum loop running over it, maybe with a sidechained compressor ducking the song to make things tougher for the algorithm. I'm thinking original pitched but strangely warped has gotta sneak through in that case. I also haven't tried any filtering yet. Based on the pitch detection, I'm thinking low pass will fare better than high pass.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #117
Here for the gear
 
Jack Goldplated's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo555 ➡️
Ironically it might have been cheaper to simply ask in the first place.
Pre-clearance is always cheaper.

When your record still isn't out, you can negotiate: "ask me more than X and I'll do without your sample".

When your record is out, and you haven't cleared that sample, the owners hold you by your privates: you either give them what they want, or they'll block your record's distribution.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Goldplated ➡️
Pre-clearance is always cheaper.

When your record still isn't out, you can negotiate: "ask me more than X and I'll do without your sample".

When your record is out, and you haven't cleared that sample, the owners hold you by your privates: you either give them what they want, or they'll block your record's distribution.
Indeed - I was being a little wistful there :D

Besides, ultimately, the "cost" wasn't my problem - Virgin were footing the bill!

But yes, communication and negotiation is a big one - and always the first port of call (imho).

After all, being sampled by your contemporaries and having an ego stroked is always pleasant. Seems a much easier negotiation process tbf
Old 4 weeks ago
  #119
Lives for gear
 
shreddoggie's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
What everyone who loves and appreciates sampling as an art should do is:
  • Get as many email addresses as you can and make accounts everywhere.
  • Next make some tunes sampling samples of other friends and enemies who have tunes using samples.
  • Upload those tunes everywhere you have accounts, then make samples of those tunes and make new tunes with samples of those samples.
  • Make sure to tag all your friends so they can take your tunes and make samples of your samples so they have new samples.
  • When your friends upload tunes with samples of the samples you sampled you know what to do: sample that sheet dog
  • Keep sharing and sampling and burn them mudda frackers out with relentless punk rock anarchy
.
Oran Tua
They could not be defeated and the imperialists had to bail.
Be like them.
They won.

Old 4 weeks ago
  #120
Gear Maniac
 
Astro Spy's Avatar
 
Billy Preston, Wham, Led Zeppelin.

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