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New Prophet 5 / 10 rev4 dark tone issue (SOLVED!)
Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1201
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wooderson ➡️
Which of us is stretching logic here? Everyone on GS ordered from the same retailer? Really?


Yes, the cluster is "Gearslutz" not "people with problems seeking out help" - as argued in your first post about why we'd see the problem children.

That's why it's bizarre that they're all alike and all, thus far, different from cbmd's unit. As evidence, this points to a widespread problem rather than a handful of bad units. If it wasn't widespread, we would expect to see a distribution of units with some matching cbmd's.



If all you see are units failing on the sole objective test, provided by Sequential, there is no reason to assume that any given other unit is going to pass. That's just making an assumption based on hope.
Ok we can stop. We could debate this forever. Its not helpful to the thread. My point is simple. There are two or more analysis-results from the facts we know. You have your theory and have placed your bet on which result you believe in. I understand. But you are not particularly careful with your words in more than one of your posts:

"No users Prophet has passed cbmd's test"
"everyone on Gearslutz ordered from the same retailer"

Neither of those statements are accurate, and they certainly don't reflect what I said.

Only so many people even HAVE a P5/10 to test! The folks who are "reporting" in this thread are the earliest adopters, and possibly are getting units from a "first batch". I'll have one on Thursday, so I can't chime in as a statistic until I have one.

This dialog has been on GS for less than 48 hours. Not everyone who had a P5 this past weekend was on GS to read the 20+ pages of talk on this. But I can imagine that the folks who felt there was a problem did in fact seek out online help and affirmation. So its not as unlikely as you choose to believe, IMHO.

More power to your interpretation, however. I for one hope you are wrong. Respectfully.

Last edited by RonF; 26th October 2020 at 10:40 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 26th October 2020
  #1202
Gear Guru
 
maisonvague's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recnsci ➡️
mind monitoring levels before second passage.
Good advice.

Next time, I’ll take it.
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Old 26th October 2020
  #1203
Here for the gear
 
I got unit number 47 P5 rev 4. Got it in person two weeks ago from Steve in SF.

I would be happy to help. I can run any test if anyone needs it.
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Old 26th October 2020
  #1204
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lark830 ➡️
I’m the one who commented on your post on YouTube, and asked you what is your serial number. I told you mine didn’t sound like yours. A few other people in my serial number range said the same thing, in my comment thread. My serial is 174. I also said it HERE a few times yesterday in different posts that my new Prophet was fine, and that it has more sizzle than your new unit, but I don’t know if I have the same as your vintage unit.

Thanks for coming over here and confirming that. Looking forward for your wav recording of CBMDs (I will never recall the order of those four letters, cause I allways confuse it with CMDB .. ) syx. That will finally confirm a positive case and help Sequential to understand it better. Also they might reach out to you for further test to understand what is different between your unit and the failing units.

Really appreciate your input on this.
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1205
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redonyellow ➡️
I got unit number 47 P5 rev 4. Got it in person two weeks ago from Steve in SF.

I would be happy to help. I can run any test if anyone needs it.
Yes please. The more data points the more likely Sequential will have a chance to understand the size of it.
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Old 26th October 2020
  #1206
Gear Head
 
AUXORION's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppch ➡️
you are outdated nowadays that is integrated
loll
You know what I mean..!

When the 192khz .wav file examples and oscilloscope screenshots start coming around, it's time to get to business.
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1207
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague ➡️
Good advice.

Next time, I’ll take it.
Hope it wasn't too discomforting.
BTW again, this was purposefully extreme example, of filter going haywire when pushed, some Polivoks inspired VCFs will go (modestly) in that direction but none should go this far.
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Old 26th October 2020
  #1208
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Acid Mitch's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiorange ➡️
Technically you are right, but since we can’t open a waveform, I remember myself trying to turn the cutoff knob more to the right once and once again. It was frustrating, until you learn to love your Voyager as it is.

I never had that problem. Except for Yamaha FM and the likes, I can't recall ever making a patch that didn't use the filter, no matter which synth I'm using. It's not that I've never turned the cut off right up but when I do I always think"needs some filter" and I dial it in.
Seems bonkers to get a Moog and not use the filters.
Old 26th October 2020
  #1209
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I have a theory, Dave doesn't hear anything above 10khz so he didn't noticed anything wrong
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1210
Deleted 3773a21
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redonyellow ➡️
I got unit number 47 P5 rev 4. Got it in person two weeks ago from Steve in SF.

I would be happy to help. I can run any test if anyone needs it.
Do this please: New Sequential Prophet 5 and 10
Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1211
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Synthpark's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludar ➡️
I have a theory, Dave doesn't hear anything above 10khz so he didn't noticed anything wrong
According to that assumption, everybody at Sequential should not hear anything in the air range, or Dave follows only his own opinion.

I had a different theory: that synths become brighter and brighter for exactly this reason, see OB6, so I was quite surprised to hear that mellow tone in the P5rev4, which I actually kinda prefer.
Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1212
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javd007's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark ➡️
According to that assumption, everybody at Sequential should not hear anything in the air range, or Dave follows only his own opinion.

I had a different theory: that synths become brighter and brighter for exactly this reason, see OB6, so I was quite surprised to hear that mellow tone in the P5rev4, which I actually kinda prefer.
I hear you, but it not really a mellow tone , the Rev 4 with filtrate, has a sort of muddy, undetailed, mid range, harsh tone. I can make my Rev 3 mellow and smooth. I have a Polysix that has SSM chips that's buttery mellow and smooth, but the Rev 4 with Filtergate, isn't pleasing like that. With the filter very closed it is fine, yes, but then you would only use it for filter closed sounds lol.
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1213
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark ➡️
According to that assumption, everybody at Sequential should not hear anything in the air range, or Dave follows only his own opinion.

I had a different theory: that synths become brighter and brighter for exactly this reason, see OB6, so I was quite surprised to hear that mellow tone in the P5rev4, which I actually kinda prefer.
Yay, after all aren't we all getting there

edit: I was right!!!
Old 26th October 2020
  #1214
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Hey all,

First off, thank you all for your patience as we get to the bottom of the issue. After our group audio analysis yesterday, I forwarded the info to Dave. We worked last night and most of today determining the cause of the fault and means to fix it. I've pasted a public note from Dave below.

Prophet 5 / Prophet 10 hardware tweak

"As some users have noticed, there is a drop in high frequencies on the current units in the field. I checked into it yesterday, and I’m highly embarrassed to say that we screwed up. Short story is there are some capacitors that were not meant to be installed, but did in fact get installed, causing the frequency drop.

A fair question would be “how did we not notice this?” This turns out to be due to my ears lacking any high end; too many Yardbirds, Who, Cream etc. concerts in the ‘60s. I picked up serial #1 on October 1st, and it sounded great to me! Since then, we’ve shipped every unit we’ve made because we have a huge backlog. And, with everyone working at home due to the pandemic, no one else played a production unit except me.

Those are just excuses; the real issue is that units in the field need to be corrected. Fortunately, it’s a fairly easy mod if you have access to a soldering iron, or a service center nearby. Two capacitors need to be removed; that’s it.
We will happily swap boards if that is preferred, or swap entire units. We will do whatever is required to make things right.

This affects serial numbers 1 to 195 on Prophet 5s, and 1 to 159 on Prophet 10s.
I owe everyone a deep apology for this; it’s not how we normally work, and I’m really sorry this fell through the cracks. Thank you for your understanding.

Sincerely,
Dave Smith"

I would like to also apologize for any inconvenience and frustration this has caused any of you. While yesterday was stressful, hectic, and overwhelming, I'm glad that we could all work together to better qualify the described problem.

Rest assured that we will make sure to make this right at no cost to owners whom purchased any units within the noted serial ranges.
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Old 26th October 2020
  #1215
Gear Addict
 
_space's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague ➡️
As a reference, here is my test based on Sir Ruff's using a vintage Prophet. No sidebands except for when using multiple wave forms on both OSCs at maxiumum volume. Otherwise, only mild clipping/saturation even at high mixer levels.

https://gearspace.com/board/attachme...ixer-test-.mp3

Someone else asked about this several pages back but my P5r3 behaves in the same manner, no distortion unless I am engaging all waveforms on both oscillators at full volume on each oscillator in the mixing section. Do another user here without that behaviour sir ruffs P5r4 is exhibiting.
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Old 26th October 2020
  #1216
Deleted b5e2891
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by lark830 ➡️
I posted about it a few times here, yesterday. I said mine sounded amazing, and has sizzle. I’m the user on YouTube you asked to post here a few hours ago. Serial #174 Kenny Larkin
I certainly mean no disrespect, and serviceable issues aside , but what most have pointed to as sizzle in the way of online demos has not sounded like sizzle to me. I am convinced people's monitoring chains and hearing are very different when it comes to the high frequencies.

Can you post a link to the youtube video of what you call sizzle?

Thanks-B


I call this sizzle... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKywtBNFI0s

2:27, 2:44 7:57, etc etc.... not hear anything from Rev 4 like this. Even at low volumes the top end is clear. Can't say that about any of the Rev 4 demos.
Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1217
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludar ➡️
Yay, after all aren't we all getting there
In 10 years it will sound marvelous! But you will no longer be able to see the keys or knobs
Old 26th October 2020
  #1218
Here for the gear
 
The recent Prophet 5 Rev 4 demos DO sound wonderful. Warm warm warm and analogy, I think that's why so many people ran out and bought one. But when you want/need to get the "exact sound" as the original this cutoff limitation sucks.

My experience in jumping the gun (again and again unfortunately) made me wait until the verdict was in before I ordered mine. I feel TERRIBLE for those that may be stuck with an inferior investment - especially since all the promo materials were pushing that this was the real deal.

I will wait until we get some definite improvements from DSI to make the leap. It looks like they are truly trying to rectify the situation, let's hope there is a happy ending to this story. I have faith in them!!!

[Well, there you have it, while I was writing this post, Dave responded with a capacitor fix! Thank you Dave, we all had faith in you!!!]

Last edited by Skyko; 26th October 2020 at 11:31 PM.. Reason: New News
Old 26th October 2020
  #1219
BM0
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BM0's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Remove two capacitors to fix it, or board swap...that is great news. I’ll probably just remove the capacitors if I get one with this issue.

Thanks to Sequential and thanks to @ javd007 for bringing this to our attention.
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1220
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Mitch ➡️
I never had that problem. Except for Yamaha FM and the likes, I can't recall ever making a patch that didn't use the filter, no matter which synth I'm using. It's not that I've never turned the cut off right up but when I do I always think"needs some filter" and I dial it in.
Seems bonkers to get a Moog and not use the filters.
Seems bonkers to let other people or the manufacturer tell you how you should use the filter on your instrument.
Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1221
Lives for gear
 
21 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Glad this will be sorted out for most. Also kinda glad I waited but I'm pretty sure I could remove two cap's on my own even with my limited electronic and soldering skills.

Hoping Sequential can post a video procedure for those affected.
Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1222
Lives for gear
 
@ cbmd

Thank you for that message, which is actually the right message in the right wording and actually hits the spot.

Really appreciate it.

Now I have some followup questions:
My P10 is still in shipping. But I assume it will fall into the SN in question as I ordered at October 2nd. (I am in Germany, so shipping take some longer).

Assuming that I will have to deal with it, can you identify the answers to those points?

1. What happens to warranty if we go and remove the caps ourselfs. I have pretty good soldering skills, working frequently with electronics, but the not sure what happens if it does not work ?

2. What are service partners in Germany authorized to do this surgery?

3. What do you estimate would be a reasonable time when you will be able to ship complete boards?

4. If I would opt for a board, would you do an RMA (sending out the board first and I ship back my old one)? The reason why I am asking is, that shipment will take a very long time and I would be without the synth for a long time - most likely even longer than simply returning the whole synth and getting it replaced from the retailer.

I know you still have all hands full of work and the answers are not that urgent, as it takes still until 19th of November before my synth might arrive. So please take your time and come back on those as you have time to get to it.

Thanks
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Old 26th October 2020
  #1223
Lives for gear
 
Station2station's Avatar
Well Sequential, this response from Dave , Chris, Carson, and the rest of your team just guaranteed that I'll be purchasing one ASAP to join the rest of my herd of DSI products. I'm all-in with companies that operate this way and I'll support you to the end of days.

My order is tendered. Thank you
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1224
Gear Addict
 
is it possible to know the serial number on the unit from anything outside on the box?

I am in the UK have one on pre-order from Andertons.

Am wondering if any of the defective unit are heading this way?
Old 26th October 2020
  #1225
Gear Nut
 
mnewb1's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Huge respect to Dave, pym and cbmd and to all those who took the slings and arrows of making sure they got this right
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1226
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
We'll have documentation available to those who feel comfortable removing the caps themselves. It's really quite easy and takes less than a minute to perform with a SMT hot air gun.

To get into the synth, unscrew the wood ends, unscrew the 3 screws in each end which connect to the top panel metal work, and lift the top panel up. It is hinged at the rear with a lanyard so it will stay open on its own.

Images of the capacitors to remove from the main board are attached.
Attached Thumbnails
New Prophet 5 / 10 rev4 dark tone issue (SOLVED!)-p5_removecaps.jpg   New Prophet 5 / 10 rev4 dark tone issue (SOLVED!)-p5_mainboard.jpg  
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1227
Gear Nut
 
Thank you javd007 for bringing this issue to light and thank you Sequential for quickly figuring it out and providing solutions.
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1228
Deleted c22732b
Guest
It would be interesting to hear the sound test on an affected production unit with the caps removed.
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Old 26th October 2020
  #1229
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
@ cbmd and @ Pym and Dave Smith, thanks for the rapid turn around and honesty on this. I’ve already started looking for my solder sucker. If only other areas of life worked the same way.

I look forward to seeing the schematics and instructions for P10s on the website.

Cheers!
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1230
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Wow.... Huge mess up, but, good on them for owning it 100% and correcting course.

Now the question is... Who's gonna keep theirs original? Cuz, you know, that warm analog sound in some of these demos is just not gonna be the same anymore
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