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Osmose by Expressive E
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1711
After watching a few Eaganmatrix tutorial videos… I hope the sales of the Osmose and the new eurorack module bring enough income to hire a UI designer for the Eaganmatrix editor.

It’s a very deep sound engine, but the UI definitely looks like it was created by an engineer in the late 1990’s.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1712
Lives for gear
 
I think it was copied straight from VisiCalc or Lotus 123
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1713
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveElbows ➡️
...an example of where tedious details could cause an issue - for example the MPE implementation with these synths only uses midi channels 2-7. If Osmose uses a broader range of channels without config options in this regard, then there will be trouble, very much like the trouble people have noticed when using these synths in MPE mode with Ableton, since Ableton will tend to round-robin across a broader range of channels.
This aspect is already pretty configurable with the Continuum, and I don't think the Osmose will gimp what's already been put in place (hopefully?) According to Haken Audio's communications so far, both units (C & O) will run the same version of the editor, which is where this stuff is set up. Right now you can set it to send a maximum polyphony of 6 if you want, with voices sent on channels 2-7, no problem (max polyphony can be set from mono up to n-1, with n = number of available MIDI channels or max controller polyphony+1, whichever is lower). There are further options to specify which channel each voice will take: round robin, lowest or highest channel available, I think there's a "same note, same channel" type of mode, and so on. It should be fine, in that respect. The MPE controller settings described in version 9.5 of the Continuum user guide should be at least the minimum of what's available for Osmose in version 10 (which Osmose is supposed launch with), right?

The Haken-style products use continuous z-axis data to control a synth's amp, and some synths expect to receive a single velocity or strike value per note, to which they want to add an envelope. So, you might have to resolve some conflicts there. But there is usually a way, while still retaining expression and bend.

You can always use polyAT or MIDI mode, but then you won't get "the bends" (you'd only get "the bend") that way. And in EE's latest update vid, it seems like they got the per-note bending calibrated really well. I noticed he slid down a minor 2nd, from one key to the next, seamlessly, towards the end of the "strings" patch example.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1714
Gear Maniac
 
Looks like it’s really going to happen. For those who still actually play this is the biggest thing since the pianoforte came out. But some will just wait for the plug-in

I’ve been on an acoustic binge since the pandi began, though I do use my old micro piano everyday. The upright is not so good on the couch. It’s been wonderful to read about music instead of how to work electronics. Loving the partimento revival.

I do dread the manual.....you know one with words. I’m salivating for the one with keys

I’ve been playing the Hammond also, practicing the rule of the octave with RT pedal board. Utterly fugal. I have a bunch of old organ books etc, so I don’t even use the iPad for sight-reading any more, which is so nice.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1715
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhoh7 ➡️
Looks like it’s really going to happen.
I will think that only once they have one off 'mass production' that works and meets QC, that still a big challenge, perhaps the main challenge from the start.

The Osmose is complex and novel and this is Expressive e's first synth...I hope for the best but am under no illusion that we are 'almost there'...we may be, but its too soon to tell... until its in production its still R+D!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1716
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djwaxxy's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
i agree i dont think we will get this until next year..i was one of the first preorder customers so i know ill get it quicker than most but theres massive shipping and production backlogs everywere and seeing how qs needs too be top notch on this product i think itll be february 2022 if were lucky.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1717
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I was also an early pre-order....at this stage I just want it to happen 'sometime' and be of a decent quality...no point rushing now and making mistakes at the last hurdle, get it right first time (so the earlier orders are not of a lower quality than subsequent orders after tweaks!)

People (like me!) will soon forget the delays if the product is good, but if early shipped units have lots of reports issues and returns it could scuttle the project. If it takes another 12 months to get it right, take the time...just let everyone who pre-paid know what is happening.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1718
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djwaxxy's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
feel same ive waited nearly 2 years id rather they perfect it and i get a flawless product than they rush it and no sooner have i got it and its falling to pieces.
Old 1 week ago
  #1719
Lives for gear
It's 2 months since the last update and less than month before shipping was due to begin. I hope we hear some news soon - hopefully good, but either way an update would be welcome.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1720
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draig's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmedia ➡️
It's 2 months since the last update and less than month before shipping was due to begin. I hope we hear some news soon - hopefully good, but either way an update would be welcome.
No way it is shipping in a month...
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1721
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I don't think they have started production yet....they were still tweaking.
Hopefully sometime in 2022!!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1722
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLiC ➡️
I don't think they have started production yet....they were still tweaking.
Hopefully sometime in 2022!!
According to the August update, production starts next month.

If recent trends hold, every two months there is an update that the schedule has slipped by two months. So I’d expect an October update within a couple weeks, but it will state that production starts in January.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1723
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjontheroad ➡️
Osmose key feature: Pressure-weighted Portamento

They patented this feature? WTF? From the description and how it sounds like in the video it seems a verbatim copy of my idea that I emailed them about in great detail in February 2020. I even included a download link to my own implementation of this idea that I tested with a CME X-key.

In addition, I originally posted about this exact same idea way back in 2013 over at KRV:

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...62595#p5462595

Here's the email I sent to Osmose:

Quote:
-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Software/firmware suggestion for Osmose keyboard
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 16:20:16 +0100
From: xxxxxxxxx <xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: [email protected]


Hi,

As someone with great interest in anything poly-AT/MPE (I have TouchKeys, VAXmidi, Roli Rise 49 and a CME X-Key) I'm also very interested in your new Osmose product. One thing of particular interest is that it can measure the entire range of travel of the keys, something your product shares with the, unfortunately never-released, NDVR Note.

Back in 2013 I got in touch with Simon Kemper from NDVR and actually wrote a little software that could use this full range key travel sensing (he called it 'Swing') to kind of emulate a ribbon controller using this data. Since the NDVR Note was never released I only ever got to test it with the CME X-Key at the time and it worked quite well with that but I'm convinced it would work even better with your Osmose keyboard.

The following is a copy of the explanation of my idea that I sent to Simon back in 2013:

The general idea is to kind of emulate what you can do with a ribbon controller or something like the Haaken Continuum but on a regular keyboard instead. You might also describe it as a free-form portamento that doesn't use a fixed time to reach the new note but instead looks at the relative ratio of depression of the notes.

Perhaps a picture would explain best (the red spot indicates the exact pitch being generated):



Essentially the effective pitch that is played (monophonically) is a weighted average of how far the active keys are pressed down. That is what the picture above shows anyway, I've come up with some other ways that might work better or not. I was hoping to implement this with the Note, on the PC at first but perhaps it could have made it into the firmware once it's been proven that the concept works. I'm pretty sure it does. The 'swing' based aftertouch would be ideal for this, I'm not sure it would work very well on a regular poly aftertouch keyboard.

It may also be possible with this to generate manual vibrato by wiggling your finger a bit on the keys surrounding the central note you intend to play. Incidentally, the weighted average does not have to be limited to two notes only, it can take into account all keys that are pressed down.

The last bit about wiggling the surrounding keys to emulate vibrato is not relevant for the Osmose since it has that built into each key already but other than that this method should allow smooth pitch glides across the entire keyboard range.

Of course if the full key depression depth data is available externally through MIDI/USB (how many bits?) this can all be done in the PC in software but it would be great if you could add this to your firmware, especially given that you have the powerful EaganMatrix synth embedded.

Please let me know what you think of this idea and if you think it's something you might implement.

In case you're interested you could perhaps also try the software that I wrote back then. It's been a long time but I'm guessing that it will still work on any Windows PC. Again here is a copy from my email to Simon Kemper from back then:

I have created a small program that implements the ribbon control emulation idea. Even with my CME X-Key it's actually working quite well and I'm sure it will work even better with the Note. If you would like to try it yourself you can download it here:

http://www.livecommander.com/P______..._________r.zip

Just unzip the contents in a folder somewhere, preferrably not under Program Files because I've been a bit lazy: all the settings are stored in the same folder as where the program resides. Although it's usually not my first choice this was written in C# and as such it requires .NET 2.0 to be installed on your system.

A brief explanation can be found in the Help|About menu plus all controls have tooltips that explain what they do. In some cases it may help to select a different response curve (especially if you enable the 'Use last note only' function you might want to use a curve like 'Ribbon 1').

Hope to hear from you.

Kind regards,
xxxxxxxx
Quote:

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: Software/firmware suggestion for Osmose keyboard
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:04:30 +0100
From: Roméo Verlet <[email protected]>
To: xxxxxxxxx <xxxxxxxxxx>
CC: Victor Grimaldi <[email protected]>, Guillaume Bonneau <[email protected]>


Hello xxxxxxxxxx

thank you for reaching me out!
I forward your email directly to our product team in cc.
They will get back to you for any potential collaboration.

All the best

Roméo

..................

Roméo Verlet
Head of global Sales & Marketing
+337 63 41 91 92
[email protected]
Skype contact: verlet-romeo
104-112 Av. de la Résistance
93100 Montreuil, France
www.expressivee.com
What the heck Osmose? I gave you an idea and I was all fine with you using and implementing it, but then you patent it without involving me? Not cool. Just so you know, you cannot patent things if there is prior art, and there clearly is, even as far back as 2013.

Last edited by TOYZ; 1 week ago at 11:44 AM.. Reason: Fixed link to image
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1724
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOYZ ➡️
What the heck Osmose? I gave you an idea and I was all fine with you using and implementing it, but then you patent it without involving me? Not cool. Just so you know, you cannot patent things if there is prior art, and there clearly is, even as far back as 2013.
I believe Haken patented it many years ago, so long ago that the patent doesnt have too many years left before it expires. So unless I got my facts wrong, this is a feature that has been inherited via the use of the EaganMatrix engine in the Osmose.

edit - here it is. The patent journey began in 2007 so predates your claims. The expiration date is actually further away than I remembered, not sure when it was last adjusted:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7902450B2/en
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1725
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveElbows ➡️
I believe Haken patented it many years ago, so long ago that the patent doesnt have too many years left before it expires. So unless I got my facts wrong, this is a feature that has been inherited via the use of the EaganMatrix engine in the Osmose.

edit - here it is. The patent journey began in 2007 so predates your claims. The expiration date is actually further away than I remembered, not sure when it was last adjusted:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7902450B2/en
If they are simply re-using that patent from Haken that would be fine but I got the impression that they had applied for a new patent specific to regular keyboards. The Haken patent is very general and is not necessarily restricted to regular keyboards (it's closely related to how the Continuum works).
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1726
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOYZ ➡️
If they are simply re-using that patent from Haken that would be fine but I got the impression that they had applied for a new patent specific to regular keyboards. The Haken patent is very general and is not necessarily restricted to regular keyboards (it's closely related to how the Continuum works).
Well it depends how that impression of yours was formed. Its a completely logical assumption when starting with no info and then hearing of the feature and how it is patented via Osmose marketing material. But as soon as I found out about the Haken patent, all my assumptions changed. And I dont have anything to go on that leads me to believe Expressive E are doing additional patent work in this area, do you?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1727
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveElbows ➡️
Well it depends how that impression of yours was formed. Its a completely logical assumption when starting with no info and then hearing of the feature and how it is patented via Osmose marketing material. But as soon as I found out about the Haken patent, all my assumptions changed. And I dont have anything to go on that leads me to believe Expressive E are doing additional patent work in this area, do you?
It's the Osmose marketing material that gave me that impression. But that's all it was, an impression and as such an assumption. I think you are probably right and that they did not apply for a new patent but are simply using Haken's patent under license. If that's the case all is good.

I am still inclined however to think that it may have been my email that gave them the idea to apply that idea and that patent to their keyboard in the first place. But that's alright, I just wanted them to consider implementing this and they did. I was not and am not interested one bit in claiming any rights, I just want to see as many poly AT keyboards with as many cool features as possible being produced.

My only issue would have been if they had applied for a new patent based on my idea but again that may not be the case; the Haken patent is broad enough that it probably covers this application of the basic idea and not just the way something similar to this is used in the Continuum.

Thanks for your input and link to the patent.
Old 3 days ago
  #1729
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #1730
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjontheroad ➡️
I wonder if the dedicated carry case will be free to long term pre-orders ;-)
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #1731
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjontheroad ➡️
And the pattern continues to hold... every two months, they announce the schedule is delayed by two months.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #1732
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thudinthenight ➡️
And the pattern continues to hold... every two months, they announce the schedule is delayed by two months.
But at least they are communicating the delays more often....and they designed a bag ;-)
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #1733
Lives for gear
 
draig's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thudinthenight ➡️
And the pattern continues to hold... every two months, they announce the schedule is delayed by two months.
That is not exactly what has happened... 2 months ago they did not say that mass production would begin in October. Though slow, there is forward progress.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1734
Quote:
Originally Posted by draig ➡️
That is not exactly what has happened... 2 months ago they did not say that mass production would begin in October. Though slow, there is forward progress.
The August newsletter said mass production and first shipments in November. Now it says progressive delivery in Q1 2022. So the milestones are not even consistent from one communication to the next.

Also in August, operator training was “still in progress”. Now operating training begins next month.

These milestones don’t mean anything IMO- they’re clearly behind schedule but need to put something in the newsletter that indicates progress.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1735
Lives for gear
 
draig's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thudinthenight ➡️
The August newsletter said mass production and first shipments in November. Now it says progressive delivery in Q1 2022. So the milestones are not even consistent from one communication to the next.

Also in August, operator training was “still in progress”. Now operating training begins next month.

These milestones don’t mean anything IMO- they’re clearly behind schedule but need to put something in the newsletter that indicates progress.
You're right... I went and checked back a while and they have pushed the date back two months a few times for the same statement.

They have made progress cause the Osmose(s) they showed at Superbooth were significantly farther along than previous showings. So it is not entirely in the same place.

I long ago stopped counting on any timeframe.
Old 2 days ago
  #1736
Lives for gear
The key thing to me was how impressed the (admittedly selected by Expressivee) Superbooth attendees in the video seemed with the keyboard - it has reinvigorated my expectations for this thing, whenever it finally arrives. The video reactions were a delight to see.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #1737
Lives for gear
 
draig's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmedia ➡️
The key thing to me was how impressed the (admittedly selected by Expressivee) Superbooth attendees in the video seemed with the keyboard - it has reinvigorated my expectations for this thing, whenever it finally arrives. The video reactions were a delight to see.
I haven't heard a single report from someone who did not walk away impressed.
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