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Behringer Neutron! Semi modular
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #721
Gear Guru
 
Derp's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Kudos to whoever designed the graphics: The patchbay is MUCH better designed and more clear than the Mother-32. Very sensible, and I like the way the input section is marked differently than the outputs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz ➡️
Hey Uli this is the kind of synth that should come with a nice Neutron sticker with colours and design like the synth, instead of the usual Behringer ear sticker..

Also be kinda cool if there was a series of Neutron gear, like Neutron drum machine, Neutron sequencer/mixer and Neutron effects unit..a whole collection.
If they're also eurorack compatible, I could get behind that. Like a modular eco-system where these complete voices/seq's/machines can play off of each other. Also, another vote for a Neutron sticker. That would look really cool as a sticker plastered to the side of my modular cases.
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #722
Gear Maniac
 
jc2046's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyBox ➡️
I'm guessing it's HPF too, but there's no way to really know for now.

I'm pretty sure the "sum" are two little utility mixers to mix signals in the matrix. There's a mult too and some other useful things.
Ok, I get it.

This is going to be my first incursion into modular territory, so sorry if it´s a dumb question, but you can get the same summing using just stackable cables, isn´t?. (that´s what I was planning to do).

Thanks!
Old 1st February 2018
  #723
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
A stackabke cable is the same as an unbuffered multiple, however a buffered mult boosts the signal such that's there's no loss due to the splitting/stacking. I don't know whether the Neutron mults are buffered or not, but they might be, and if so then yeah, there's a difference.
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #724
Gear Nut
 
hypneurosis's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc2046 ➡️
Ok, I get it.

This is going to be my first incursion into modular territory, so sorry if it´s a dumb question, but you can get the same summing using just stackable cables, isn´t?. (that´s what I was planning to do).

Thanks!
SUM is for adding two signals together, so two in, one result out.

MULT is for multiple, not multiplication, it splits one signal into two. so you can get the same effect by using stackables to split any output into two outputs, but like said above, it's unbuffered so slightly different strength.

I'm pretty sure you never want to use a stackable to join two signals going into an input though. I could be wrong, and it could certainly be planned for by the manufacturer, but I believe it's generally a no no.

I really hope Behringer puts out a line of cheap stackable cables. The ones that exist on the market are ridiculously overpriced. Especially for someone who say wants to get a couple Neutrons and do some crazy experimenting, they're going to need a lot of patch cables.
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #725
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc2046 ➡️
I dont mind if I have to patch by myself the cables, as long as the pots are memory recallable. It´s a pity that this machine will never or almost never be taken to gigs for the memory issue.
I take my ms20 mini to gigs, it’s not a big deal unless you’re lazy and afraid.
Old 1st February 2018
  #726
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Coorec's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
We need more info/video of these. I am pretty interested to get one.

I hope it fits into 19''.

I see myself with 3 Behringer synths at the end of the year... who would have ever guessed.
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #727
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer ➡️
Besides the fact that there is analog I/O on the back ( )
I still think you could classify it as a semi-modular purely based on the matrix.
Well, sortof. The matrix doesn't give you a connection to the outside world, but in itself it is a kind of a modular thing. The modulations are not fixed path.

Would you consider it semi-modular if the matrix was analog (i don't mean plugs, but analog potmeters instead of digital controls) ?
Would you consider something like a VCS3 semi modular?
Tricky. Let's reflect:

It's a spectrum, I think Wikipedia words it right:
"Modularity is the degree to which a system's components may be separated and recombined."
A module is a signal generating or manipulating apparatus.

In a modular all the modules are independent, not connected in any way.

In a semi-modular, the modules or part of them are connected but you can break those connections and rearrange them.

In a non-modular the connections are set in stone.

Also, signals loosely fall under audio signal or control signals. In a synth the modularity of one side or the other will vary.

I don't think the openness to the outside world is significant. I think what we're trying to do here is define the inner modularity of a synth, not if the synth as a whole is a module itself within a larger context.

Now, in practice where does that leave us, I'm not sure. I know for me you enter semi-modularity when the audio signal path can be rearranged, that's the part that's semi-fixed in semi-modulars. I think the VCS3 can do that.
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #728
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Dear Uli Behringer,

Please give us a price...

...

...

...

Please?

Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #729
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by badmark
I understand that. I'm not angling for a patchable MoroderNova e.g. Just from reading about the Minibrute2 and this, I started wondering why no semi-modulars had any kind of save system for the fixed element of their routings, and how useful it might be as a more efficient aide-memoire than a bunch of photocopied sheets or a blurry photo on your phone.
I believe the Buchla Music Easel (and 200e system) is an exception to this; you can store presets using memory cards. If Uli comes out with an Easel clone or 200b, I will be converting to the religion of Behringerism.
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #730
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wordsdrawnigh ➡️
I believe the Buchla Music Easel (and 200e system) is an exception to this; you can store presets using memory cards. If Uli comes out with an Easel clone or 200b, I will be converting to the religion of Behringerism.
Wouldn't that breach copyright to current owners of Buchla?
Old 1st February 2018
  #731
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Uli said that the price would depend on interest. The more interest the lower the price.
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #732
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertflyer ➡️
Uli said that the price would depend on interest. The more interest the lower the price.
I really don't want one. No aftertouch and the keys are too small.
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #733
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimpazoid ➡️
I really don't want one. No aftertouch and the keys are too small.
What if he added a D Beam?
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #734
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertflyer ➡️
What if he added a D Beam?
Oh alright then.... But only if it comes in the required shade of pink with green spots.
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #735
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by infindebula ➡️
The only polyphonic synths with analog control that I know of are the ones on which you must individually adjust each voice - the Oberheim x-Voice, the Akai Timbre Wolf, and the Vermona Perfourmer.
My CS60 does. It also has (a single) patch memory, which is one of the reasons I chose it nearly 40 years ago (along with touch sense, which again put it way ahead of it's time back then). Best of both worlds. I don't want to go back to the days before patch memory - one of the reasons I love the new SH01a. If you play live, or with other musicians regularly, you need it. There is much fetishism in this thread - but that's why it's gearslutz, not practicalmusicianslutz
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #736
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertflyer ➡️
Yeah. That red is slowly growing on me.
of course it is !
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #737
Gear Maniac
 
jc2046's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wordsdrawnigh ➡️
I believe the Buchla Music Easel (and 200e system) is an exception to this; you can store presets using memory cards. If Uli comes out with an Easel clone or 200b, I will be converting to the religion of Behringerism.
Im positive Uli will enter in Buchlaland sooner or later. It´s such a logical step to get huge beneficts and an enourmus gift to the synth community. There are plenty of us wanting to have a reasonably priced easel. Go figure
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #738
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc2046 ➡️
Im positive Uli will enter in Buchlaland sooner or later. It´s such a logical step to get huge beneficts and an enourmus gift to the synth community. There are plenty of us wanting to have a reasonably priced easel. Go figure
Again how can this be done when said company still owns CR?
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #739
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by neorev ➡️
Dear Uli Behringer,

Please give us a price...

...

...

...

Please?

419,- Dollar
Old 1st February 2018
  #740
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
That's not how copyright works, generally speaking. Patents and Trademarks and Tradedress issues *may* be applicable if someone were to try and copy Buchla gear, but then again - there are several eurorack modules from various builders that are copies of Buchla bits and they seem to get away with it fine, but in the end - I've no idea regarding the current status of Buchla and their technologies and any related Intellectual Property issues, and am just guessing.

With as many similar pieces of gear as there are and always have been in the music world, I suspect it's rare and quite difficult to keep others from copying things, especially old things.
Old 1st February 2018
  #741
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Music Easel | Buchla

This is the current model designed off the original, which the current owners of the company went to great lengths to reissue
I can't see a clone being made as it would infringe on CR TM or IP
Sure it could be loosely based on it, but then that would be like me making a Iphone clone and calling it a Snapple
If history serves well, we both know the issues between Samsung and Apple

Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #742
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvinDog ➡️
With regard to pricing, in the VP-340 thread, Uli mentioned using Radian6 to gauge social engagement, which strongly correlates to sales projections, in order to determine if releasing the VP-340 will be financially viable. This also appears to have been done with the D clone. Because they're bringing the Neutron to market without this sort of analysis, it makes me think that the tooling for this was comparatively inexpensive (Uli says VP-340 tooling will be ap. $100,000), and that this is going to be a surprisingly value-priced piece of gear. I'm spitballing <$200.
I'm not going to enter the price-guessing game, but I'll add something else to think about in addition to the points you make on tooling. The Behringer Model D was originally expected to be $399, but ended up at $299 due to demand of large numbers being known fairly early on—so, we can suspect that's a pretty good price, not an inflated one. (It's a #$%! price, wish my order would show up...)

There are many differences, and I'm not going to speculate on three VCOs vs two, discrete vs chip. And lets say R&D was "free". But we can look at the front panel and see the Neutron is a bigger board, has more pots, and many more jacks—those things cost money. It makes it hard to rationalize how Neutron would come in at two-thirds the price of a Model D. Or even the same price. It will be more, but we can expect it to be a startling value from what we've seen so far.
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #743
Gear Maniac
 
jc2046's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Well, you can put a complex oscillator, a low pass gate, a bunch of other modules, minikeyboard instead of plates and call it a day.

That´s the Muzik Beasel for you
Old 1st February 2018 | Show parent
  #744
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertflyer ➡️
What if he added a D Beam?
You mean the Ulli B Deam
Old 1st February 2018
  #745
Gear Guru
 
Derp's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
1 for 1 copies of the 200e in Euro would be great. There's a couple modules copied to Eurorack, but I'd love to see the whole system cloned.
Old 2nd February 2018
  #746
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
You can make a complete easel using Make noise modules..
Old 2nd February 2018 | Show parent
  #747
Lives for gear
 
badmark's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by infindebula ➡️
Fair enough - I did suggest "steppiness" is a key problem of digitally controlled analog circuits. Speaking to that, I can tell you that for certain parameters, any steps are unacceptable. An example would be something like the ring modulator on an ARP Odyssey: adjusting the pitch of one of the inputs yields a continuously varying sound, but digitize that control and ... well, you will always have audible steps.
Hmm. Without knowing the specific Odyssey architecture I'm constantly adjusting the pitch of the Monologue that's the input to a Moog ring modulator, and I'm not getting them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by infindebula ➡️
Steppiness is only part of the problem. Many synths don't even register the first nudge of a given pot, or if you're turning the pot up and then turn it down it will actually skip some values before it starts decrementing. Despite its premium price my DSI OB-6 is terrible for this, and it's absolutely maddening when trying to fine-tune an oscillator. To an extent this is a necessary by-product when reading values from potentiometers, because there will always be a certain amount of analog noise on the line that the software must ignore. Perhaps DSI was a bit overzealous with their code, but I don't put blind trust in any manufacturer to get it right.
My Mopho's pots do that too, well, the ones I use the most do. You reminded me it was probably time to do the 'hidden function' calibrate,
Old 2nd February 2018 | Show parent
  #748
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by badmark ➡️
My Mopho's pots do that too, well, the ones I use the most do. You reminded me it was probably time to do the 'hidden function' calibrate,
Don’t even get me started on how I feel about “hidden functions”!
Old 2nd February 2018 | Show parent
  #749
Lives for gear
 
StarfishMusic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I wonder why they went with the small knob for the cutoff? It seems like there's enough room if they just moved the mode switch and accompanying leds a little lower. They have 3 knob sizes on this thing. The medium knob the lfo shape uses would have been fine. I won't let it stop me from getting one it's just an unusual choice.

Holy ****! I just realized it has oscillator in and out points on the matrix. That means with 2 neutrons you can do 4 operator FM! Call me late to the paty but that's incredible if these things are under $500. Maybe I'm wrong about how this works. The only modular I've had was my old EML 200 years ago. It had 2 osc you could patch into each other and and audio rate reaching lfo. The beautiful subtle harmonic shifting or clangtangorous screamieutronng was so much fun! Can even one neutron get you 3 op fm if you patch it right? If so you got 6 with two units!
Old 2nd February 2018 | Show parent
  #750
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarfishMusic ➡️
Holy ****! I just realized it has oscillator in and out points on the matrix. That means with 2 neutrons you can do 4 operator FM! Call me late to the paty but that's incredible if these things are under $500. Maybe I'm wrong about how this works. The only modular I've had was my old EML 200 years ago. It had 2 osc you could patch into each other and and audio rate reaching lfo. The beautiful subtle harmonic shifting or clangtangorous screamieutronng was so much fun! Can even one neutron get you 3 op fm if you patch it right? If so you got 6 with two units!
But probably not in the way you want. That is, oscillator frequency responds exponential to the control voltage input. You want linear frequency control. ("FM" synthesis is really phase modulation. Also, you'd really want more VCAs for dynamic FM, and...)

For anyone not sure what I'm getting at, consider using a sine wave (I think that's a sine symbol on the panel, a little fuzzy) as the modulation source, let's say swinging between +1 and -1v. For low frequency modulation, you want musical intervals, and this works out really well—the other oscillator swings up an octave above it's set point, back, down an octave, back to the start.

But for audio rate FM, that's not what you want. Let's do some math: Say the oscillator you're listening to (the carrier) is set at 1000Hz. Crank that control oscillator (the modulator) up to audio frequency for FM. The carrier is now swinging quickly between 500Hz (an octave down) and 2000Hz (an octave up). The average is 1250Hz, quite a bit sharp from where we set it originally. Worse, if you change the modulator amount (depth) dynamically, that average is sliding around.

Instead, we need linear input, so a balanced bipolar signal (we usually want sine waves for FM) swings the same amount of Hz, not musical interval. So, modulating that 1000Hz carrier might swing it between 500Hz and 1500Hz, and stay in tune as we vary the modulation depth.

You definitely need exponential control for usual synth stuff, so you'd need additional linear inputs as well. No big deal, analog tolerances make analog linear FM a bit imprecise, and you can still get "clangorous" found with exponential FM as is.

A bit longer than intended, hope this wasn't annoying...
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